Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute

Valve has a court date in Australia to respond to accusations from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, a watchdog group, that Steam's refund policy, or lack thereof, violates Australian consumer protection laws (thanks Darth Guybrush). Word is a "directions" hearing will take place on October 7th. Here's word from News.com.au::
ACCC chairman Rod Sims said: “The Australian Consumer Law applies to any business providing goods or services within Australia. Valve may be an American-based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by Australian Consumer Law.

“It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.

“The consumer guarantees provided under the Australian Consumer Law cannot be excluded, restricted or modified.”

Valve chief executive Doug Lombardi told news.com.au in an email: “We are making every effort to cooperate with the Australian officials on this matter, while continuing to provide Steam services to our customers across the world, including Australian gamers.

He did not respond to more detailed questions put forward by news.com.au.
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20.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 30, 2014, 17:03
20.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 30, 2014, 17:03
Aug 30, 2014, 17:03
 
NKD wrote on Aug 30, 2014, 06:28:
GameAnger wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 19:25:
You quantify it with Australian Law. If a product isnt fit for purpose, or if it doesn't do what it says it does on the box. We're entitled to a refund.

What's the purpose of a game? It's not like a toaster that doesn't toast bread. That's indisputably useless. A game that you simply didn't enjoy as much as you thought, or had some bugs, shouldn't entitle you to a refund.

If you get the game and you outright cannot play it to any reasonable level, or it does not contain the content or features depicted in the store page, that's a different story.


Since Steam has a timer, put something like 60 minutes game time or something like that on it, that takes care of those that can't start the game up getting their refunds back and if somehow you bought the wrong game or somehow it is completely different than you suspected, notice it quickly, stop playing, go for refund. If a game can't make it 1 hour then it never deserved the buyers $$$.
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19.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 30, 2014, 06:28
NKD
19.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 30, 2014, 06:28
Aug 30, 2014, 06:28
NKD
 
GameAnger wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 19:25:
You quantify it with Australian Law. If a product isnt fit for purpose, or if it doesn't do what it says it does on the box. We're entitled to a refund.

What's the purpose of a game? It's not like a toaster that doesn't toast bread. That's indisputably useless. A game that you simply didn't enjoy as much as you thought, or had some bugs, shouldn't entitle you to a refund.

If you get the game and you outright cannot play it to any reasonable level, or it does not contain the content or features depicted in the store page, that's a different story.

Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Avatar 43041
18.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 30, 2014, 02:25
18.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 30, 2014, 02:25
Aug 30, 2014, 02:25
 
Steam my ... Book
17.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 19:25
17.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 19:25
Aug 29, 2014, 19:25
 
You quantify it with Australian Law. If a product isnt fit for purpose, or if it doesn't do what it says it does on the box. We're entitled to a refund. There is more to it of course, but thats the crux.

As for 'other industries', they all fall under the same banner. They may have restrictions all they want, but the law trumps their restrictions. Hence this court case.

Valve can remove their services from Australia. The corresponding thousands of dollars in refunds would make me laugh though

But Valve wont go anywhere. They'll set up a specific policy for Australia, they'll enforce an AUDollar tax like those Wankers at Blizzard have done. Fuck you Blizzard and your fucking AUDollar tax. Those cunts arent getting one more cent from me. Fuck ActiBlizz.

I was once a fanboy too


NKD wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 16:48:
So what's the level of bugginess or "lousiness" which qualifies a game for a refund? How do you quantify it? Everyone has different standards. Do you really think anyone should be entitled to unlimited refunds for any stated reason? Because a lot of people would just be like "Heh heh heh, I can get this game for free by beating it really quickly and saying I had a lot of bugs and the game crashed a lot!"

You mention "other industries" but fail to acknowledge that other industries ALSO have restrictions on refunds and returns to help prevent abuse.

Before you can offer refunds, you need measures in place to prevent abuse by self-absorbed nitwits who think they deserve all their games for free.
16.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 18:51
16.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 18:51
Aug 29, 2014, 18:51
 
After 9 years I contacted Steam after a game would not work on my pc I bought on last years christmas sale. I tried every forum fix, and repeatedly tried the developer for help to no avail. They refunded my game for store credit (steam wallet $) and removed it from my steam account.

They relented at first, but they refunded it.
Currently setting a record for most edited posts, 1 reply at a time.
15.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 17:14
Quboid
 
15.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 17:14
Aug 29, 2014, 17:14
 Quboid
 
How do GOG implement theirs?

At GOG.com, we're confident in the quality of the games we sell and the work that we put into getting them ready for you to play them. If a game that you've bought on GOG.com doesn't work and our team of expert Support staff can't solve the problem for you, we will give you back your money.

If, within 30 days after the purchase of your game, you experience technical problems or game-breaking bugs that prevent you from finishing your game, contact our customer support. They will do their best to help you fix the problem and if, at the end of their attempts to solve the problem your game is still not working, we'll give you back your money.

If the game fails to load then it's pretty straight forward but "game-breaking bugs that prevent you from finishing your game" encompasses a lot. How do they know you haven't finished it and have looked up a known issue to con a refund? If a game-breaking bug is fixed in a new patch but my saved game isn't compatible, I probably wouldn't be entitled to a refund but I'd still lose that emotional investment.
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14.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 16:48
NKD
14.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 16:48
Aug 29, 2014, 16:48
NKD
 
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 14:36:
NKD wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 14:01:
People would abuse the shit out of refund options if given half a chance.

If the gaming industry provided less half baked buggy and lousy games then the refund rates would be tolerable. If other industries did such a poor job on quality, then they'd be refunding plenty too.

So what's the level of bugginess or "lousiness" which qualifies a game for a refund? How do you quantify it? Everyone has different standards. Do you really think anyone should be entitled to unlimited refunds for any stated reason? Because a lot of people would just be like "Heh heh heh, I can get this game for free by beating it really quickly and saying I had a lot of bugs and the game crashed a lot!"

You mention "other industries" but fail to acknowledge that other industries ALSO have restrictions on refunds and returns to help prevent abuse.

Before you can offer refunds, you need measures in place to prevent abuse by self-absorbed nitwits who think they deserve all their games for free.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Avatar 43041
13.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 14:54
13.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 14:54
Aug 29, 2014, 14:54
 
Qbex . wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 10:27:
I'd like them to answer to consumer watchdog why the fuck they charge 89.99$ USD for Civ Beyond Earth among many other titles sold on Steam Au. I largely forgo pirating games but thing like that wants me to do it just in spite
That'll be the publishers doing it to appease physical retailers.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
Avatar 22891
12.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 14:36
12.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 14:36
Aug 29, 2014, 14:36
 
NKD wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 14:01:
People would abuse the shit out of refund options if given half a chance.

If the gaming industry provided less half baked buggy and lousy games then the refund rates would be tolerable. If other industries did such a poor job on quality, then they'd be refunding plenty too.
11.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 14:01
NKD
11.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 14:01
Aug 29, 2014, 14:01
NKD
 
jacobvandy wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 13:40:
Bard wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 12:51:
I wish I could have gotten a refund on at least half the games I have bought, that are DRM crippled or just plain broken.


How many games do you own? That number will determine whether you're part of the problem (claiming a game is "broken" because it's plain bad or you don't like it) or just the worst consumer ever who has managed to buy proportionately more actual shovelware than everyone else here. ;-)

Seriously, though, unless the description of the game was misleading or incomplete (it happens sometimes), any DRM is not a good reason for a refund. You're told about it upfront and you bought it anyway.

"This is why we can't have nice things." comes to mind. People would abuse the shit out of refund options if given half a chance. You'd need a system in place to stop people from abusing it by too frequently requesting refunds.

It shouldn't be there as a safety net that allows people to buy whatever game they want and get a refund if they don't like it, or worse, get a refund once they've beaten the game or gotten their fill of it.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Avatar 43041
10.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 13:40
10.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 13:40
Aug 29, 2014, 13:40
 
Bard wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 12:51:
I wish I could have gotten a refund on at least half the games I have bought, that are DRM crippled or just plain broken.


How many games do you own? That number will determine whether you're part of the problem (claiming a game is "broken" because it's plain bad or you don't like it) or just the worst consumer ever who has managed to buy proportionately more actual shovelware than everyone else here. ;-)

Seriously, though, unless the description of the game was misleading or incomplete (it happens sometimes), any DRM is not a good reason for a refund. You're told about it upfront and you bought it anyway.
9.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 13:34
9.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 13:34
Aug 29, 2014, 13:34
 
I like the mild suggestion that Steam could pull out of Australia. How about some damages and jail time for people at Valve?
8.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 12:51
8.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 12:51
Aug 29, 2014, 12:51
 
I wish I could have gotten a refund on at least half the games I have bought, that are DRM crippled or just plain broken.

7.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 12:29
Quboid
 
7.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 12:29
Aug 29, 2014, 12:29
 Quboid
 
Good. It was only a matter of time but it should not have taken this long. I know how complicated it is to say when a game is broken but Valve has increasingly been profiting from selling junk and are seemingly happy to hide behind this vagueness.

Given the Australian government's apparent opinion of computer gaming (just a children's activity) I am surprised they are leading the way. If Valve pulled out of Australia, how long would it be until a larger market followed suit?
Avatar 10439
6.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 12:13
6.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 12:13
Aug 29, 2014, 12:13
 
It would probably be cheaper for Steam to just tell the Aussie's where to go, and not do business in the country. I bet half of them already use vpn's and offshore accounts to not get hosed on the conversion rate that valve is oh so well known for anyways.

That said, i hope valve caves and adopts this as a worldwide policy.
Avatar 46370
5.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 11:43
5.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 11:43
Aug 29, 2014, 11:43
 
About fucking time.
4.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 10:40
4.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 10:40
Aug 29, 2014, 10:40
 
Frijoles wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 10:35:
Qbex . wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 10:27:
I'd like them to answer to consumer watchdog why the fuck they charge 89.99$ USD for Civ Beyond Earth among many other titles sold on Steam Au.

Thought the price was set by the publisher?

It is.


However, on the issue of refunds, Steam is sorely, sorely lacking. If even **EA** (admittedly only for their own games) has a better policy than you, you know you're not doing something right.

Just do a fucking refund policy already. The tiny amount of people who would abuse it is in no way comparable to the enormous amount of goodwill you gain from it. And if you offer the refunds into the Steam wallet you're guaranteed that the people will still spend the money with you.

Yes, it's an administrative hassle. You make 1.5 billion dollars a year. Hire a guy to deal with it and suck it the fuck up.
Avatar 15604
3.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 10:35
3.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 10:35
Aug 29, 2014, 10:35
 
Qbex . wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 10:27:
I'd like them to answer to consumer watchdog why the fuck they charge 89.99$ USD for Civ Beyond Earth among many other titles sold on Steam Au.

Thought the price was set by the publisher?
Avatar 6700
2.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 10:30
2.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 10:30
Aug 29, 2014, 10:30
 
Laying and maintaining all that cable to Oz ain't cheap I spose.
"The horse I bet on was so slow, the jockey kept a diary of the trip." - Henny Youngman
1.
 
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute
Aug 29, 2014, 10:27
1.
Re: Steam AU Refund Legal Dispute Aug 29, 2014, 10:27
Aug 29, 2014, 10:27
 
I'd like them to answer to consumer watchdog why the fuck they charge 89.99$ USD for Civ Beyond Earth among many other titles sold on Steam Au. I largely forgo pirating games but thing like that wants me to do it just in spite
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