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Thanks Ant.

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36. Re: etc., etc. Aug 27, 2014, 01:18 Creston
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 21:23:
Heat is energy. It travels away from the source, per the laws of entropy. Heat energy escapes easily through glass.

Laws of entropy have nothing to do with it. Temperature rises or lowers through Convection, Conduction or Radiation, and the first two simply don't work in a vacuum. This is why a vacuum thermos works well at keeping stuff warm.

I imagine eventually your ship would slowly radiate heat out, but as I'm thinking about it, it's also possible that it would just stay encapsulated for a long time, as most of the heat in your ship would not be in the form of radiation? (but rather be contained in the metals of your ship and thus not conduct out.)

I dunno, I'm not a real scientist.



 
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35. Re: etc., etc. Aug 27, 2014, 01:13 Creston
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:08:
So my conclusion is that what happened in the video is actually scientifically not possible or highly exaggerated.

Ships hyperjump in 30 seconds to a star that's 15LY away, but the frost is what you find unrealistic?

There is no actual temperature in a vacuum, but radiation (there is no conduction or convection in a vacuum) can still raise or lower temperatures, and shit gets cold in a hurry if it's not exposed to radiation (ie, sunlight.) Temperatures on the hull of the ISS get around 250C for metal that's in direct sunlight, but will go as low as -100 when not in sunlight.

So if the E:D ship were to shut off all its internal power and then found some way to shade itself from the radiation emissions of the nearest star it could potentially freeze up. Whether the window would frost over like that, though, and especially so quickly, would depend on the level of condensation on the inside. It would only frost over on the inside, not on the outside.

Now concerning the Apollo 13 mission I google quickly and found this thread and the answer seems to be in post #11 and further explained in post #13.

What concerning the Apollo 13 mission? That their windows frosted over? That they got loads of condensation? Those are true, and have been issues with manned spaceflight since Yuri Gagarin. Very interesting thread you linked, btw.

This comment was edited on Aug 27, 2014, 01:23.
 
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34. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 21:43 eRe4s3r
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 21:23:
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 18:28:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 16:43:
[...]
I think it's fairly realistic that the water vapor in the cockpit would condense and freeze on the windows once you go into stealth mode and shut down the cockpit heating. That's just physics.
[...]

It's actually not. The temperature in the cockpit doesn't get lower since there's nowhere for the heat to go to.

Heat is energy. It travels away from the source, per the laws of entropy. Heat energy escapes easily through glass.

Heat travels away from the source, but inside the vehicle is air. Outside there is not. It travels faster inside than outside, meaning you can "out-produce" the loss of heat very easily which is why spaceships have active cooling systems at all times. Air is not great at insulating but glass is much worse, glass will always have the temperature of whatever is transferring heat faster, meaning inside it would be warm if the air is warm. And there is no reason to assume the ship would cool the temperatures in the ship to subzero. That cooling/heating cycle is *very* dangerous for electronics too ,)

So bottom line, he is right. Physically the ice is not realistic. It does look cool though, and it serves an gameplay purpose

Ps.: Entropy does apply, but entropy is slow, humans radiate a lot of heat, electronics too. A lot more than a few windows could radiate away. Windows have a small surface area. radiators which you can use in space have infinitesimal small fins and curves to extend surface area and increase area to radiate heat away with. Meaning it is easier to heat a ship than to cool it. It's actually REALLY hard to cool a space-ship properly. Close to the sun it might even be impossible without rotation trickery
 
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33. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 21:23 jdreyer
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 18:28:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 16:43:
[...]
I think it's fairly realistic that the water vapor in the cockpit would condense and freeze on the windows once you go into stealth mode and shut down the cockpit heating. That's just physics.
[...]

It's actually not. The temperature in the cockpit doesn't get lower since there's nowhere for the heat to go to.

Heat is energy. It travels away from the source, per the laws of entropy. Heat energy escapes easily through glass.
 
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32. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 18:28 yuastnav
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 16:43:
[...]
I think it's fairly realistic that the water vapor in the cockpit would condense and freeze on the windows once you go into stealth mode and shut down the cockpit heating. That's just physics.
[...]

It's actually not. The temperature in the cockpit doesn't get lower since there's nowhere for the heat to go to.
 
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31. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 16:43 jdreyer
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 15:09:
I am pretty sure that you would never see ICE on the ISS windows. Because glass needs to be very very well isolated from any other surface in space on a space-station. And humidity is generally a problem in space. (Ie, you never have enough as you constantly recycle the air ,p) this is why long-term missions think about a biosphere element to maintain this. (And save on oxygen and coČ scrubbing)

Apollo 13 was different, they literally cramped all in a very tight space, so humidity was a problem. They switched power devices off to save power (but they produce heat, which is what the life support is configured for by default) so the life support was what cooled the ship down, if they had been able to tune the life support they would have been able to actually heat the capsule properly and even saved power. As you say, radiating heat away is not very effective... but humans each produce about 200 to 300W of heat energy per hour. (There is a joke there somewhere ,p) so those humans on Apollo 13 could have heated the capsule just by being there. If the life support hadn't cooled everything down.

When it comes down to it, it's very unlikely we'd have windows in a really modern "Built for function" space-ship anyway. If you had a power loss a window wouldn't save you


I think it's fairly realistic that the water vapor in the cockpit would condense and freeze on the windows once you go into stealth mode and shut down the cockpit heating. That's just physics. It's probably happening a bit more quickly than it should though.

I'm wondering how far they went in modelling it. If you're close to and facing a sun and you try that, there should be no ice, since the heat would prevent it from freezing.
 
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30. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 15:09 eRe4s3r
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:42:
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:38:
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:08:
So my conclusion is that what happened in the video is actually scientifically not possible or highly exaggerated.

It's a video game made so you can have fun, yes... it is highly exaggerated. It's visual feedback for when you are in stealth.

I'm not saying it's not cool. I was just curious whether this part of the simulation was true or not.

Well as always with that question, the answer is "it depends"...

I am pretty sure that you would never see ICE on the ISS windows. Because glass needs to be very very well isolated from any other surface in space on a space-station. And humidity is generally a problem in space. (Ie, you never have enough as you constantly recycle the air ,p) this is why long-term missions think about a biosphere element to maintain this. (And save on oxygen and coČ scrubbing)

Apollo 13 was different, they literally cramped all in a very tight space, so humidity was a problem. They switched power devices off to save power (but they produce heat, which is what the life support is configured for by default) so the life support was what cooled the ship down, if they had been able to tune the life support they would have been able to actually heat the capsule properly and even saved power. As you say, radiating heat away is not very effective... but humans each produce about 200 to 300W of heat energy per hour. (There is a joke there somewhere ,p) so those humans on Apollo 13 could have heated the capsule just by being there. If the life support hadn't cooled everything down.

When it comes down to it, it's very unlikely we'd have windows in a really modern "Built for function" space-ship anyway. If you had a power loss a window wouldn't save you

 
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29. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:42 yuastnav
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:38:
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:08:
So my conclusion is that what happened in the video is actually scientifically not possible or highly exaggerated.

It's a video game made so you can have fun, yes... it is highly exaggerated. It's visual feedback for when you are in stealth.

I'm not saying it's not cool. I was just curious whether this part of the simulation was true or not.
 
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28. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:38 eRe4s3r
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:08:
So my conclusion is that what happened in the video is actually scientifically not possible or highly exaggerated.

It's a video game made so you can have fun, yes... it is highly exaggerated. It's visual feedback for when you are in stealth.
 
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27. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:19 eRe4s3r
 
Creston wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:26:
The only thing I really dislike in the E:D video is the absolutely absurd amount of "space dust" flying by the cockpit whenever even the slightest amount of speed is attained. When he's slowly tumbling backwards, the fucking dust flies by as if he's going FTL. And there's SO.RIDICULOUSLY.MUCH of it. If they'd draw 1/10th of that amount of white shit, the effect of "you are actually moving" would be exactly the same.

I hope they'll clear some of that out, because ugh, it distracts me even just watching that video.

It needs some tuning down but.. I think in VR with the lower resolution, you absolutely need that amount of space dust ,)
 
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26. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:13 SpectralMeat
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:11:
Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately I'm also too busy with real life, so I won't be getting the game, most likely, but I'm definitely looking forward to the release since it sounds awesome.
Your very welcome hope to see you online when the game comes out in a few months
 
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25. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:12 SpectralMeat
 
Short version, that glass frosting over effect is there to make it look cool exiting from hyperspace, and it works!  
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24. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:11 yuastnav
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 14:06:
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:49:
I quickly scanned their forums and what I found out was that it's sort of an instanced MMO with up to 32 players simultaneously fighting, though I'm not sure what it's actually like since the only instanced MMO that I played was Global Agenda.
Unless if you mean the distress zones where you go to fight the whole game is basically a living breathing sandbox with live players and Ai mixed all together.
The distress zones are where you go to choose your side and fight against Ai and players of the opposite faction.
Those areas are great for grinding for cash but you have to be careful even your own faction player can turn against you. It is a PvP area with no police present. Anything goes.

Aside from that I am not aware of a MP only arena type game mode (doesn't mean there isn't one). I have to admit though I haven't been playing it much lately life has been kicking my ass.

Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately I'm also too busy with real life, so I won't be getting the game, most likely, but I'm definitely looking forward to the release since it sounds awesome.
 
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23. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:08 yuastnav
 
Cutter wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:54:
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:34:
Heh, I was kinda bothered by how the glass froze since I'm not sure whether this is actually scientifically possible.
Though I guess not everything has to be absolutely realistic for it to be a simulation (I'm talking about stuff that's known to be true or false, not science fiction things like allegedly ftl travel).

Sure it's possible, it's thermodynamics. That would be condensation from inside the ship as the ship's temperature reaches equilibrium with the space around it. Ever see Apollo 13? Space is cold, man. You can freeze your nips off out there.

The problem is that space is almost a vacuum and doesn't really have a temperature since temperature is related to particle movement and there are only, if I remember correctly, a few atoms per cubic meter in space, if not less. From my understanding space is a very good insulator. Reaching an equilibrium with space wouldn't be possible, in this case, since you would not be able to exchange heat with space by conduction or convection, only by radiation.
Losing heat by radiation, however, isn't a fast process, certainly not as fast as shown in the E:D video.
So my conclusion is that what happened in the video is actually scientifically not possible or highly exaggerated.

Now concerning the Apollo 13 mission I google quickly and found this thread and the answer seems to be in post #11 and further explained in post #13.
 
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22. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 14:06 SpectralMeat
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:49:
I quickly scanned their forums and what I found out was that it's sort of an instanced MMO with up to 32 players simultaneously fighting, though I'm not sure what it's actually like since the only instanced MMO that I played was Global Agenda.
Unless if you mean the distress zones where you go to fight the whole game is basically a living breathing sandbox with live players and Ai mixed all together.
The distress zones are where you go to choose your side and fight against Ai and players of the opposite faction.
Those areas are great for grinding for cash but you have to be careful even your own faction player can turn against you. It is a PvP area with no police present. Anything goes.

Aside from that I am not aware of a MP only arena type game mode (doesn't mean there isn't one). I have to admit though I haven't been playing it much lately life has been kicking my ass.
 
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21. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 13:54 Cutter
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:34:
Heh, I was kinda bothered by how the glass froze since I'm not sure whether this is actually scientifically possible.
Though I guess not everything has to be absolutely realistic for it to be a simulation (I'm talking about stuff that's known to be true or false, not science fiction things like allegedly ftl travel).

Sure it's possible, it's thermodynamics. That would be condensation from inside the ship as the ship's temperature reaches equilibrium with the space around it. Ever see Apollo 13? Space is cold, man. You can freeze your nips off out there.
 
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20. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 13:49 yuastnav
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:41:
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:34:
I assume that the E:D multiplayer isn't like a FPS Eve
It actually is kind of like that
All the ships flying around you are a mix of players and Ai. The only way to know if they are players or Ai is to target them and if the pilot name come up as Cmdr they are player controlled.

So I'd say if you liked the way EVE works with the different security level systems and you never know if you get ambushed by pirates as you approach a station or being chased down by police for carrying illegal goods in your cargo etc., you will love Elite.

I have to admit that I never played EVE but was always fascinated by it (I never played real MMOs, Planetside 2 was my first one). What you described sounds interesting, though.

I quickly scanned their forums and what I found out was that it's sort of an instanced MMO with up to 32 players simultaneously fighting, though I'm not sure what it's actually like since the only instanced MMO that I played was Global Agenda.
 
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19. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 13:41 SpectralMeat
 
yuastnav wrote on Aug 26, 2014, 13:34:
I assume that the E:D multiplayer isn't like a FPS Eve
It actually is kind of like that
All the ships flying around you are a mix of players and Ai. The only way to know if they are players or Ai is to target them and if the pilot name come up as Cmdr they are player controlled.

So I'd say if you liked the way EVE works with the different security level systems and you never know if you get ambushed by pirates as you approach a station or being chased down by police for carrying illegal goods in your cargo etc., you will love Elite.
 
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18. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 13:34 yuastnav
 
Heh, I was kinda bothered by how the glass froze since I'm not sure whether this is actually scientifically possible.
Though I guess not everything has to be absolutely realistic for it to be a simulation (I'm talking about stuff that's known to be true or false, not science fiction things like allegedly ftl travel).

So is it worth getting E:D right now? How's the multiplayer?
I stayed away from Star Citizen because the monetisation model looked dodgy as hell to me, coupled with it using the CryEngine and only allowing only a handful of players per server (afaik).
I assume that the E:D multiplayer isn't like a FPS Eve (which would be cool, though) but is it still like an open-world thing with quests/missions or more of an arena-type shooter thing?
 
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17. Re: etc., etc. Aug 26, 2014, 13:26 Creston
 
The only thing I really dislike in the E:D video is the absolutely absurd amount of "space dust" flying by the cockpit whenever even the slightest amount of speed is attained. When he's slowly tumbling backwards, the fucking dust flies by as if he's going FTL. And there's SO.RIDICULOUSLY.MUCH of it. If they'd draw 1/10th of that amount of white shit, the effect of "you are actually moving" would be exactly the same.

I hope they'll clear some of that out, because ugh, it distracts me even just watching that video.
 
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