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Op Ed

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45. Re: Op Ed Aug 25, 2014, 00:23 Overon
 
Game "journalism" is largely a joke. There are conflicts of interest not disclosed. Opinions are influenced by trading publicity for access or other perks.

People sometimes act hypocritically. They say one thing and do the very thing that contradicts what they said.

Disagreements on the internet come from the so called "call out" culture. There is a tendency for calling someone out when you disagree with them. Which is not in of itself a negative thing to the degree you are not an asshole about doing so. The main problem becomes when things get personal and one tries find dirt on the personal life of one's target by "doxing" to hurt and discredit them.
 
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44. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 23:35 Creston
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 13:14:
What's the half life of the Quinnspiracy? I think this is good for at least another two weeks of posts and commentary.

Dear God, I hope not...
 
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43. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 22:58 Redmask
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 20:33:
That's the whole "scandal" in this Zoe Quinn mess. She (and her sex life) are irrelevant. What IS relevant is that her supporters, many of whom are in positions of power in the gaming press, and many of whom have spoken out loudly against the silencing of feminist opinions, are brutally suppressing any mention of her hypocrisy, their hypocrisy, or the incestuous relationship between indie developers and segments of the gaming press. If a person posted a blog about how a misogynistic indie developer used his friendship with gaming "journalists" to both pimp his game and to keep another game (by a woman) from being developed, and the gaming press silenced the discussion on this, the SJWs would lose their fucking MINDS. RPS would stop publishing anything for days, just so that John Walker could pontificate on the shame we should all feel for being born on the same planet as this event! It would be the greatest crime (to the SJWs) since the Khymer Rouge's Killing Fields!

Reverse the antagonist in this case (to a SJW and buddy of the gaming press) and the Great Wall of Fucking Silence descends on the internet. You'd have a better chance getting cops to rat out each other for speeding than get Kotaku to admit that their "journalists" pimp their friends' shit (and run down the stuff that isn't in their clique).

Nailed it, well written.
 
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42. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 22:28 Parallax Abstraction
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 20:33:
See, here's the issue you don't seem to get. There's a difference between agreeing that there is a sexism problem in gaming, agreeing with the extent of the problem, and agreeing on what the proper solutions are to that problem. The problem that most people have with SJWs is that they demand immediate agreement and obedience to their opinions on all three of these topics. If you agree that there is sexism, but you disagree with the scope of it, you are a sexist. If you agree that there is a larger problem with sexism in the gaming community, but you don't agree with them on how to fix it, then you are a sexist. The SJW has no allies, only sock-puppets or enemies. That's it.

So when you have people lamenting that women's voices are being silenced in gaming, most rational people are bothered by this statement... primarily because most people are decent enough that they hate to see anyone silenced a priori. Which is why most people are initially sympathetic to SJWs. What they don't understand until later (and what causes the backlash) is that SJWs aren't opposed to silencing people; they are only opposed to being silenced themselves! The average SJW would happily ban/mute/ignore/silence/shove into cattle-cars those that disagree with them. They aren't complaining based on their opposition to being silenced; they are complaining because other people get to say things they don't like and they can't stop it.

This is one of the best descriptions of the core issue I have with this whole thing. I agree there are issues with regards to sexism in games. On my YouTube channel, I've pointed out times in some of the retro games I cover where they stepped over the line when it comes to that stuff. I also believe they way these are being discussed is highly toxic and fostering binary opinions where you're either in 100% agreement with one side or you're automatically 100% in agreement with the opposition. Middle opinions (which most well thought out opinions on an issue tend to be) are not welcome. This goes for both sides. I have been called a bigot and a misogynist online by people I thought I knew quite well simply for pointing out that Anita Sarkeesian's video have factual errors in them and sometimes take creative liberties to make their points (which they do) or they maybe it wasn't a great scandal when Giant Bomb decided to hire another white male to replace Ryan Davis. I've also been called an SJW (actually I think it was a feminazi) on my YouTube channel when I pointed out some of the really creepy advances your character in the Sega CD game Snatcher makes towards several women characters (that comment was moderated so it no longer exists.)

There are pressing, important issues regarding representation in games that need to be discussed. The problem is the people with the loudest voices don't want discussion, they want obedience.

This comment was edited on Aug 24, 2014, 22:44.
 
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41. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 21:12 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 19:58:
Jensen wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 19:44:
ASeven wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:44:

And don't you dare say that beheading women for not wearing a piece of cloth and "sexism" in gaming are both problems. One is a real problem, the other is a non-issue.
Sexism in the gaming community isn't a real problem because women are being beheaded in other countries, but corruption* within the industry of video game journalists is a major problem. Got it.

*A free twine game may have possibly received a tiny bit of press because its creator was in a relationship with a journalist.

No, a non-issue is a non-issue. Sexism in gaming is a non-issue. Want to change lives for the better? Join Amnesty International and actually fight for women's right around the globe.

Corruption, wherever it is found, is always an issue. And using censorship to stifle proof of that corruption is plain disgusting.
So, something happening in someone's hobby isn't a problem because there are worse things happening across the globe?

Right. ASeven, if I ever see you whine about anything, like how you did when the NSA was found to target your country, I'll remind you that being monitored by the US government is a non-issue, because there are people being drone-killed by it. Really, ASeven, any time you ever complained about the NSA spying on you it was a wasted breath.

And don't you dare say they're both problems, because having your cell phone call monitored is nothing compared to being blown up.
And, of course, if you're not actively shooting down those drones, dedicating your life to it, you can't even complain because, really, what are you doing?
 
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40. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 20:33 Eirikrautha
 
Beamer wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 13:37:
What SJW's don't understand is that we view fighting SJW's and their toxic, infectious bullshit and fighting sexism in gaming as two separate things.

May I ask, then, what you think people like Cutter, Mad Max, ASeven, etc., are doing to "fight sexism in gaming?"

There are hundreds of thousands of words fighting "SJWs" on this board. Excluding the people considered "SJWs," there are maybe a dozen posts fighting sexism in gaming.
Which is what drives those you call "SJWs" insane - rather than focus on the problem, people focus on those saying there's a problem. The assumption becomes that the sexism isn't that big a deal ("Marissa Meyer only runs one of the largest companies on the planet because she's hot!") and the complaining is the larger issue ("Zoe Quinn proves all women in gaming are frauds!")

See, here's the issue you don't seem to get. There's a difference between agreeing that there is a sexism problem in gaming, agreeing with the extent of the problem, and agreeing on what the proper solutions are to that problem. The problem that most people have with SJWs is that they demand immediate agreement and obedience to their opinions on all three of these topics. If you agree that there is sexism, but you disagree with the scope of it, you are a sexist. If you agree that there is a larger problem with sexism in the gaming community, but you don't agree with them on how to fix it, then you are a sexist. The SJW has no allies, only sock-puppets or enemies. That's it.

So when you have people lamenting that women's voices are being silenced in gaming, most rational people are bothered by this statement... primarily because most people are decent enough that they hate to see anyone silenced a priori. Which is why most people are initially sympathetic to SJWs. What they don't understand until later (and what causes the backlash) is that SJWs aren't opposed to silencing people; they are only opposed to being silenced themselves! The average SJW would happily ban/mute/ignore/silence/shove into cattle-cars those that disagree with them. They aren't complaining based on their opposition to being silenced; they are complaining because other people get to say things they don't like and they can't stop it.

That's the whole "scandal" in this Zoe Quinn mess. She (and her sex life) are irrelevant. What IS relevant is that her supporters, many of whom are in positions of power in the gaming press, and many of whom have spoken out loudly against the silencing of feminist opinions, are brutally suppressing any mention of her hypocrisy, their hypocrisy, or the incestuous relationship between indie developers and segments of the gaming press. If a person posted a blog about how a misogynistic indie developer used his friendship with gaming "journalists" to both pimp his game and to keep another game (by a woman) from being developed, and the gaming press silenced the discussion on this, the SJWs would lose their fucking MINDS. RPS would stop publishing anything for days, just so that John Walker could pontificate on the shame we should all feel for being born on the same planet as this event! It would be the greatest crime (to the SJWs) since the Khymer Rouge's Killing Fields!

Reverse the antagonist in this case (to a SJW and buddy of the gaming press) and the Great Wall of Fucking Silence descends on the internet. You'd have a better chance getting cops to rat out each other for speeding than get Kotaku to admit that their "journalists" pimp their friends' shit (and run down the stuff that isn't in their clique).

This is all related to SJWs because of the blatant hypocrisy. Deviate one iota from the party line, and they will screw your career up forever (and pat themselves on the back for it). Donate to Prop 8 in Cali, and you can't even work at Mozilla. But use your journalist friends to destroy two different game jams, et al... and we can't talk about that.

If SJWs were about giving voice to the voiceless, they'd be untouchable. But they're not. They're about ruthlessly bullying and silencing anyone that even slightly disagrees, all while demanding they themselves be heard. Which is why more and more people are ignoring them...
 
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39. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 19:58 ASeven
 
Jensen wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 19:44:
ASeven wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:44:

And don't you dare say that beheading women for not wearing a piece of cloth and "sexism" in gaming are both problems. One is a real problem, the other is a non-issue.
Sexism in the gaming community isn't a real problem because women are being beheaded in other countries, but corruption* within the industry of video game journalists is a major problem. Got it.

*A free twine game may have possibly received a tiny bit of press because its creator was in a relationship with a journalist.

No, a non-issue is a non-issue. Sexism in gaming is a non-issue. Want to change lives for the better? Join Amnesty International and actually fight for women's right around the globe.

Corruption, wherever it is found, is always an issue. And using censorship to stifle proof of that corruption is plain disgusting.
 
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38. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 19:44 Jensen
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:44:

And don't you dare say that beheading women for not wearing a piece of cloth and "sexism" in gaming are both problems. One is a real problem, the other is a non-issue.
Sexism in the gaming community isn't a real problem because women are being beheaded in other countries, but corruption* within the industry of video game journalists is a major problem. Got it.

*A free twine game may have possibly received a tiny bit of press because its creator was in a relationship with a journalist.
 
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37. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 18:34 Verno
 
Squirmer wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 18:19:
Yeah but you can't pretend that being a sexist piece of shit is part of a teenager's natural stage of being, and part of becoming an adult is naturally not being a piece of shit any more. There needs to be people maintaining that calling a woman a bitch/whore/slut or sexually harassing them is actually not acceptable. Without that, the piece of shit teenager will remain a piece of shit adult (which still happens in many cases, e.g. this Thunderf00t person).

That's a fair point but now you're getting into iffy territory. Is it ok to pretend all men exhibit this behavior to make a point with the few that do? That's what many people seem to do. Is it my job to ensure women have a good experience on a random corporations gaming network? To play parent to others children? I might say "dont be a dick" to people who are acting like one but that's about all I can do. Guilt trip blog posts and endless haranguing don't make me want to keep going out of my way either. There are rules and structures in place to deal with the few people (men and women) who are shitty to others, I feel like the press should be appealing to the companies who are actually responsible for that and not lashing out at all men. Those responsible will learn soon that they can't get away with it when they are ejected.

Someone complained in the other thread that women shouldn't be treated any different but in here its the opposite argument and the conceit that women need to be protected by men.
 
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36. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 18:19 Squirmer
 
Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 17:38:
Sepharo wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 16:32:
I have to disagree with your assessment of the ages of the CS community though. I would say the majority playing are still teens.

Neither here nor there, regardless the take away from my reply was this:

This isn't a problem with men so much as it is a problem with maturity. The vast majority of harassment I've had from Xbox Live has been from teenagers. No amount of blogs or education can replace life experience, those teens are not reading them in the first place. There are certainly outliers and men who are also immature but again, those people aren't really going to be reached by a Tumblr post saying men are pigs with a cherry picked list of tweets as examples.
Yeah but you can't pretend that being a sexist piece of shit is part of a teenager's natural stage of being, and part of becoming an adult is naturally not being a piece of shit any more. There needs to be people maintaining that calling a woman a bitch/whore/slut or sexually harassing them is actually not acceptable. Without that, the piece of shit teenager will remain a piece of shit adult (which still happens in many cases, e.g. this Thunderf00t person).
 
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35. No subject Aug 24, 2014, 17:46 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Some will find this humorous. Shots fired  
--
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there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
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34. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 17:41 Sepharo
 
Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 17:38:
Sepharo wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 16:32:
I have to disagree with your assessment of the ages of the CS community though. I would say the majority playing are still teens.

Neither here nor there, regardless [..]

That was posted as an aside. My first sentence/paragraph was agreeing with you.
 
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33. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 17:38 Verno
 
Sepharo wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 16:32:
I have to disagree with your assessment of the ages of the CS community though. I would say the majority playing are still teens.

Neither here nor there, regardless the take away from my reply was this:

This isn't a problem with men so much as it is a problem with maturity. The vast majority of harassment I've had from Xbox Live has been from teenagers. No amount of blogs or education can replace life experience, those teens are not reading them in the first place. There are certainly outliers and men who are also immature but again, those people aren't really going to be reached by a Tumblr post saying men are pigs with a cherry picked list of tweets as examples.
 
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32. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 16:32 Sepharo
 
Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 16:19:
Sepharo wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:13:
Your anecdotal evidence is countered by others' anecdotal evidence. One of my female friends is really deep into the fighting game community. She has an album on facebook with hundreds of sexist abuse messages that she gets sent on xbox live. She doesn't even post the majority of them, just a couple of really vile ones once a week for years now.

I have a bit of a bone to pick with this example though, I've bolded it. I've endured a lot of abuse on Xbox Live and I would wager most other people have too. The CS community is pretty good these days since many of the players are now in their 30s.

No doubt the level of abuse is wildly different depending on, platform, game, and community.

I have to disagree with your assessment of the ages of the CS community though. I would say the majority playing are still teens. Did you know that CS:GO is the 2nd most played game on Steam behind DOTA2? There are over 200,000 playing right now.
 
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31. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 16:19 Verno
 
Sepharo wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:13:
Your anecdotal evidence is countered by others' anecdotal evidence. One of my female friends is really deep into the fighting game community. She has an album on facebook with hundreds of sexist abuse messages that she gets sent on xbox live. She doesn't even post the majority of them, just a couple of really vile ones once a week for years now.

I have a bit of a bone to pick with this example though, I've bolded it. I've endured a lot of abuse on Xbox Live and I would wager most other people have too. The CS community is pretty good these days since many of the players are now in their 30s. The Dota community is awful by comparison and male or female, you should expect some bullshit there. What you're playing, platform and audience all matter.

This isn't a problem with men so much as it is a problem with maturity. The vast majority of harassment I've had from Xbox Live has been from teenagers. No amount of blogs or education can replace life experience, those teens are not reading them in the first place. There are certainly outliers and men who are also immature but again, those people aren't really going to be reached by a Tumblr post saying men are pigs with a cherry picked list of tweets as examples.

Since we're relating anecdotes here, my girlfriend has been gaming for several years now and outside of a few clumsy pickup attempts and a higher number of friends list requests than the norm she rarely has negative experiences.
 
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30. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 16:13 ASeven
 
Prez wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 16:01:
...The hypocrisy there sucks too, when a few idiotic men insult a woman suddenly all men are lumped in but when its a woman we're all just supposed to excuse it and pretend it doesn't affect perception...

Damn if that ain't the truth. Well said.

Indeed.
 
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29. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 16:01 Prez
 
...The hypocrisy there sucks too, when a few idiotic men insult a woman suddenly all men are lumped in but when its a woman we're all just supposed to excuse it and pretend it doesn't affect perception...

Damn if that ain't the truth. Well said.
 
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28. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 15:56 Redmask
 
Sepharo wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:13:
But the internet is vile a place... I don't want to diminish the abuse and I hope things get better but at the same time I agree with many people in this hobby that the campaign against this abuse has often gone too far. What's needed is more active moderation, more respectable communities, not a million blog articles bashing male gamers.

The campaigns themselves are now very suspect, filled with vague anecdotes, anonymous tweets and when people dare to question them they are called MRAs and censored or doxxed. They have gone beyond the point of reason, the amount of censorship I saw them engaging in the past week was ridiculous and what I would have expected from the so called MRA types. People like to pretend this is just one crazy idiot but the silence and attempted censorship from the press and some developers says otherwise. The hypocrisy there sucks too, when a few idiotic men insult a woman suddenly all men are lumped in but when its a woman we're all just supposed to excuse it and pretend it doesn't affect perception.

Reasonable discussion about these issues went out the window awhile ago and I'm tired of being talked down to by people who have been revealed as totally full of shit.
 
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27. Re: Out of the Blue Aug 24, 2014, 15:17 Mashiki Amiketo
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 24, 2014, 14:44:

Have a pic if this is too much for your thick head to understand.

http://i.imgur.com/qS4RcAC.png
Don't forget it was the SJW that got Ayaan Hirsi banned from speaking at Brandeis University.
 
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and it is always wrong."
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26. Re: Op Ed Aug 24, 2014, 15:15 starttimartti
 
I don't like Thunderf00t because he's rude. But most of the time he is right... but he just picks easy targets and is rude.

For feminism/sjw, the two gaming-wise things that rub me the wrong way and I can think off the top of my head are Zoe Quinn and Jade R-something-of-Assassin's-creed-fame. Both times the headlines were "there's a game... made by a GIRL!" and that's just not the right way to sell me the game.
 
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