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30. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 12:54 Lord Tea
 
Verno wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:48:
Enahs wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:39:
That 25 millions dollars he got as a bonus, could be used to pay each of those employees $833. It is irrelevant to the discussion.

I disagree but I suspect we're just going to delve off into everyones personal definition of capitalism. I do not take a bonus while people in my department are losing their jobs en masse regardless of how well our division is doing relative to the rest of the company.

Saying it is because Windows 8 or XBoxOne is doing bad, is just ignorant. They are not doing great, but they are not actually doing horrible either.

Literally one user said that, no one else.

... and even I was just making fun of MS.
 
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29. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 12:49 Beamer
 
Verno wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 12:08:
short sighted leadership. Hopefully this type of example will lead to less of this in the future instead of more.

I fail to see much of the "short sighted leadership" you're mentioning, and I don't know what could have been done different.

Can you elaborate? What could Microsoft have done differently? What do you want them to do with all the support staff they picked up from Nokia? There's literally no work for them to do, because someone in Microsoft was already doing the same work. And the remaining Nokia Corporation didn't need them because it sold off the business unit they worked in.

I agree that there's stupid PR drivel being spewed out, but you can thank people suing corporations that laid them off for that - every single tiny non-meaningful thing said has been cleared by legal to make sure it leaves nothing they can be sued for. It's extremely hard to fault a company for saying meaningless bullshit when the alternative is to say something meaningful then get sued for it.

But I don't see many of these layoffs being due to "short sighted leadership," and I don't see a way to avoid laying people off after mergers. Every company has support staff - people that eat revenue without adding to it. In general, these people make it hard to start a company, because you need someone in HR/Communications/Marketing/Finance/IT, but as the company grows they scale nicely, meaning that one IT guy can cover a network of 100 employees as competently as he can cover a network of 5 employees. When two companies merge, suddenly the HR people, the IT admins, the finance report-makers, the marketing teams, all find themselves, well, redundant. In the future, that won't change. That will never change. If you're not part of what makes a company worth buying, you will be at risk when your company is bought. The engineers stay. The product design guys stay. The UI guys stay. The finance guys, the IT guys, the marketing guys, the HR guys, etc., they all find themselves in a bad spot.

No one is happy about it, but Microsoft took on 30,000 new employees. They had been about 100,000 employees before that. That growth is enormous. You can't expect them to keep them all.
 
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28. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 12:08 Verno
 
NKD wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 10:29:
But the mentality that for people to lose their job someone must have done something wrong is short sighted and naive

Sure markets change and shit happens. In this case though we have plenty of precedent. But whatever I can see where this is headed with the usual suspects. I guess I just feel more responsible to people working under me than others here. We lose people but I never feel good about it and no one sends out dipshit HR drivel about synergy and realignment. No one is saying Microsoft is the devil or that it isn't necessary but I think its a shame considering the missed opportunities and short sighted leadership. Hopefully this type of example will lead to less of this in the future instead of more.
 
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27. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 11:15 Beamer
 
Verno wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:48:

Literally one user said that, no one else.

In the other thread people said it, and here I believe it's implied in their discussion of "incompetence." People don't like Microsoft products here, so they extrapolate out that people must not like it everywhere and both revenues and the stock price must be plummeting. Not true.

What is true?
1) Microsoft had about 100,000 employees, then took on another 30,000 in an acquisition. That's too many, and most of those are marketing and beancounters whose jobs are already being done by someone at Microsoft
2) A new CEO came in and he's changing the strategy. Some of the concepts being worked towards by the old CEO don't make sense to him, and he'd like to clear house. You can somewhat call this incompetence. XES was certainly an incompetent decision to build, and with Mattrick and Ballmer gone, no surprise no one believes in it and it's being shuttered
3) Whenever you have a large layoff for understandable reasons (again, like laying off a redundant marketing team picked up in an acquisition), it's a good time to do a sweep through of the people you have sitting in cubes that no one wants to work with, be it through incompetence or through bad attitude. These are occasionally just people the boss dislikes, but usually people everyone kind of dislikes because working with them is problematic. They're not quite bad enough to fire, but not someone anyone wants around. Every company has people like this. Layoffs represent a good time to clear this


There are definitely some people going due to managerial incompetence, but it's probably less than 10%. It sucks for those that got hired and moved to Seattle for something that's getting cleaned out in this (I know of a guy that moved here from LV over the winter, which is still better than a current coworker of mine who went to work at P&G out of undergrad, moved to Texas, and was told the entire office was closing at the end of the week... on his first week. His first week! "Well, people would have been suspicious if you didn't start," his idiot, uncreative, now-former boss explained.) It sucks for those that worked at Nokia and had great jobs they probably did a great job at but now no longer have a job function, because someone in Seattle was already doing their responsibilities, and are now unemployed. I feel less bad about the dead weight being kicked out. Every single one of us can think of at least two people we deal with at work that we think the company would be better off without.
 
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26. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 10:29 NKD
 
Verno wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:37:
NKD wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:33:
Yeah, its a big deal. Just like the acquisition was a big deal to begin with. But it doesn't spell out doom or gloom.

Who said anything about doom and gloom? Can't it just fucking suck for people losing their job, especially those who are essentially getting sacked while management gets rewarded?

Of course losing your job sucks. But the mentality that for people to lose their job someone must have done something wrong is short sighted and naive. Why should a valued employee be denied a payday because someone else got fired? There are plenty of well paid management types getting sacked too. You don't need two of every high paid executive position.

I didn't throw a fit when I lost a job. These employees are adults and many of them have probably had to fire employees themselves at some point
 
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25. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 09:48 Verno
 
Enahs wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:39:
That 25 millions dollars he got as a bonus, could be used to pay each of those employees $833. It is irrelevant to the discussion.

I disagree but I suspect we're just going to delve off into everyones personal definition of capitalism. I do not take a bonus while people in my department are losing their jobs en masse regardless of how well our division is doing relative to the rest of the company.

Saying it is because Windows 8 or XBoxOne is doing bad, is just ignorant. They are not doing great, but they are not actually doing horrible either.

Literally one user said that, no one else.
 
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24. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 09:39 Enahs
 
Verno wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 08:59:
Lots of people trying to downplay this, 6000 Microsoft workers and 12000 Nokia employees being sacked is a big deal. Meanwhile the Nokia guy gets a 25mil bonus and Microsoft continues to post strong financials. Yep nothing wrong with this!


That 25 millions dollars he got as a bonus, could be used to pay each of those employees $833. It is irrelevant to the discussion. They are in fact getting larger severance pays, and extensions on insurance beyond employment for a reasonable amount of time. Microsoft is not just dumping them.

Again, as a few have said, they are dumping 18,000 after acquiring 30,000 people overnight.

Yes, it sucks for those people. Big time. But you can not let your emotion decide what to do, or the rest of the 100K + employees will suffer. Saying it is because Windows 8 or XBoxOne is doing bad, is just ignorant. They are not doing great, but they are not actually doing horrible either.
 
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23. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 09:37 Verno
 
NKD wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 09:33:
Yeah, its a big deal. Just like the acquisition was a big deal to begin with. But it doesn't spell out doom or gloom.

Who said anything about doom and gloom? Can't it just fucking suck for people losing their job, especially those who are essentially getting sacked while management gets rewarded?
 
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22. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 09:33 NKD
 
Verno wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 08:59:
Lots of people trying to downplay this, 6000 Microsoft workers and 12000 Nokia employees being sacked is a big deal. Meanwhile the Nokia guy gets a 25mil bonus and Microsoft continues to post strong financials. Yep nothing wrong with this!


Yeah, its a big deal. Just like the acquisition was a big deal to begin with. But it doesn't spell out doom or gloom. Its a massive company getting their house in order. Its big, but that's to be expected with such a sizeable acquisition. It happens.
 
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21. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 08:59 Verno
 
Lots of people trying to downplay this, 6000 Microsoft workers and 12000 Nokia employees being sacked is a big deal. Meanwhile the Nokia guy gets a 25mil bonus and Microsoft continues to post strong financials. Yep nothing wrong with this!

 
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20. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 08:13 NKD
 
Prez wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 08:04:
I'm no fan of Microsoft, and their callous wording about people losing their jobs aside, but in this instance I have to say that if anyone Nokia is the bad guy if you are dead set on finding one. Nokia knowingly agreed to this merger knowing it would put thousands of people out of work. Shareholders get a payday, the little guy gets shafted.

Two thirds of them were Nokia employees...

That would then indicate 1/3, or about 6000 workers WERE Microsoft employees, wouldn't it? That doesn't exactly paint a rosy picture for Microsoft, redundancy notwithstanding.

They picked up about 30,000 new employees in the acquisition IIRC, it wouldn't really be fair to the Nokia guys if they sacked exclusively from the Nokia pool. Probably a fair number of positions where they felt Nokia had the stronger employee too.

This comment was edited on Jul 18, 2014, 08:19.
 
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19. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 08:04 Prez
 
I'm no fan of Microsoft, and their callous wording about people losing their jobs aside, but in this instance I have to say that if anyone Nokia is the bad guy if you are dead set on finding one. Nokia knowingly agreed to this merger knowing it would put thousands of people out of work. Shareholders get a payday, the little guy gets shafted.

Two thirds of them were Nokia employees...

That would then indicate 1/3, or about 6000 workers WERE Microsoft employees, wouldn't it? That doesn't exactly paint a rosy picture for Microsoft, redundancy notwithstanding.
 
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18. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 07:54 NKD
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 01:13:
It's like shouting at a mountain or something here. No matter how many times you point out that Microsoft isn't doing this due to their incompetency, people that haven't looked into it at all make that assumption and spew it all over the internet.

Shouting at a mountain is about right. Mass layoffs after major acquisition? CLEARLY INCOMPETENCE!!! And it's the fault of the products I don't personally like!

Like someone said earlier, it's fucking redundant positions getting sacked. It's not like they are just firing 18,000 people at random to save a few bucks. They are firing 18,000 people that otherwise would be collecting a check to sit there and do nothing.

Two thirds of them were Nokia employees. I.e. had fucking nothing to do with Windows 8, or Xbone, or anything else at MS.

If these fucks can't even bother to read the article they shouldn't be allowed to post.
 
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17. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 07:48 Steele Johnson
 
NKD wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 18:38:
How dare a company fire people! You should have your job until you don't want it anymore or are deemed incompetent! These evil fucks and their changing staffing needs.

Lol! I agree with the sarcasm. I love how the Blue's posters, particularly the same ones who have been bashing MS for years now, are against this. Sure, it sucks losing your job, but seriously, you've got to get rid of the dead wood at some point. It's clear that Microsoft's old business model doesn't work anymore. Technology has shifted and they have no choice but to adapt. There's no question that a lot of jobs will be lost. We're also on the brink of a video game market crash, so this most likely won't be the end of the firings... for other companies as well.
 
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16. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 03:05 Flo
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 01:13:
walrus1 wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 00:23:
Redmask wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 22:38:
NKD wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 18:38:
How dare a company fire people! You should have your job until you don't want it anymore or are deemed incompetent! These evil fucks and their changing staffing needs.

That unimpressive hyperbole misses the point. That's a lot of fucking jobs lost for a company whose mistakes have arguably been management related. They certainly have the right to fire people but that doesn't mean people have to like it or that they can't criticize it.

Our corporate overlords demand that we remain silent and buy without question.

Seriously 18,000 people that's eighteen thousand people just got fired due mostly to both Nokia and Microsoft's incompetencey. Yet Microsoft's stock went up today. This is very wrong!

But
it
isn't
incompetency



It's like shouting at a mountain or something here. No matter how many times you point out that Microsoft isn't doing this due to their incompetency, people that haven't looked into it at all make that assumption and spew it all over the internet.

As usual, Beamer is one of the few smart guys around here...
 
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15. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 03:04 Flo
 
Lord Tea wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 02:19:
They can blame that on Windows 8 and the Xbox One, two major products that are totally sub-standard.
ARRRG , NO, for the 1000th time, it's because they can't support all of the people from the Nokia takeover, of course there is A LOT of redundancy...
 
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14. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 02:19 Lord Tea
 
They can blame that on Windows 8 and the Xbox One, two major products that are totally sub-standard.  
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13. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 01:13 Beamer
 
walrus1 wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 00:23:
Redmask wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 22:38:
NKD wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 18:38:
How dare a company fire people! You should have your job until you don't want it anymore or are deemed incompetent! These evil fucks and their changing staffing needs.

That unimpressive hyperbole misses the point. That's a lot of fucking jobs lost for a company whose mistakes have arguably been management related. They certainly have the right to fire people but that doesn't mean people have to like it or that they can't criticize it.

Our corporate overlords demand that we remain silent and buy without question.

Seriously 18,000 people that's eighteen thousand people just got fired due mostly to both Nokia and Microsoft's incompetencey. Yet Microsoft's stock went up today. This is very wrong!

But
it
isn't
incompetency



It's like shouting at a mountain or something here. No matter how many times you point out that Microsoft isn't doing this due to their incompetency, people that haven't looked into it at all make that assumption and spew it all over the internet.
 
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12. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 00:23 walrus1
 
Redmask wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 22:38:
NKD wrote on Jul 17, 2014, 18:38:
How dare a company fire people! You should have your job until you don't want it anymore or are deemed incompetent! These evil fucks and their changing staffing needs.

That unimpressive hyperbole misses the point. That's a lot of fucking jobs lost for a company whose mistakes have arguably been management related. They certainly have the right to fire people but that doesn't mean people have to like it or that they can't criticize it.

Our corporate overlords demand that we remain silent and buy without question.

Seriously 18,000 people that's eighteen thousand people just got fired due mostly to both Nokia and Microsoft's incompetencey. Yet Microsoft's stock went up today. This is very wrong!
 
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11. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 18, 2014, 00:14 Cutter
 
Tom wrote on Jul 18, 2014, 00:01:
But if you're going to fire people, let's call it what it is. The "tired euphemisms" serve only to antagonize, especially the affected employees I'm sure. Do they have any benefit or positive effect on anyone? Maybe fanboys, who will believe anything and everything and spin the worst news as the best thing ever, but screw them. For the rest of us, just say you're eliminating redundancies to cut costs and maximize profits. What's wrong with being honest, upfront, and to the point?

Yeah, that's what bothers me the most. I remeber being laid off from one company - they basically cut us all lose to shift our office to Colorado - and they actually hired some asshole "specialist" to do it. I can't even remember all the PR babble, but it was a lot of bullshit about realignments and shifting priorities and restructuring things. We all knew what was coming but it literally took us about 5 minutes to realize we were being canned with all this corporate babble coming out of his mouth. Once that happened a bunch of us just got up and walked out. I would have had a lot more respect for them - and been a lot less pissed off - if they had the stones to do it themsselves to begin with and just came out and said it plain and simple, 'Sorry folks, you're all fired. We're relocating this office to Denver and only a few key people will be getting invites. Thanks for your hard work and best of luck in the future. To cushion the blow we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Show 'em what they've won, Bob!'
 
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