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Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again

A Kickstarter update for Torment: Tides of Numenera has word of another delay to inXile entertainment's upcoming RPG, saying it is now looking like this will come in Q4 of next year (thanks nin). In April of last year they announced that "we’ll need a few months past the December 2014 launch date we first proposed at $900,000, but they say the recent news that Wasteland 2 is coming by the end of August means the release must be pushed back further:

So, where are we on Torment then? During the last week of our Kickstarter, we had adjusted our target launch date to the first half of 2015. And last December, in Update 27, I mentioned that timeline was still feasible, but that Torment’s schedule remained in flux until all became clear with Wasteland 2. Wasteland 2’s success in Early Access allowed us to spend more time improving it, which also meant we had more time in preproduction on Torment. We’ve had more time to prototype, improve tools, iterate on our processes, etc. before entering full production. This has been a great thing for everything... except for our release date.

Now that we have a more certain roll-off plan for the production team from Wasteland to Torment, we’re better able to predict the shape of our schedule. And, as you may have guessed, the first half of 2015 isn't realistic anymore and we’re looking at the fourth quarter of 2015.

You may wonder how we can extend TTON’s development for a year longer than planned. By running a small core team during the preproduction phase, we have been extremely efficient in developing the foundation and the pipeline for the game – we make decisions more quickly, and we’ll have set a strong vision to help eliminate uncertainty. This will help us make fewer mistakes as the full team ramps up. One year following TTON’s Kickstarter, more than 80% of the development budget remained, so we have a lot of firepower for our production, beta, and finalization phases.

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25. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 16, 2014, 04:25 Jerykk
 
wtf_man wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 15:32:
Creston wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 12:31:
But a publisher also wouldn't approach a dev with a clear goal for a game, ask for a deadline, then a month later add 10 stretch goals to it and demand it still be delivered on the same release date. (well... a reasonable one wouldn't, anyway.)

Which is basically what some people are saying...

I don't buy that as an excuse.

Stretch goals aren't part of the initial pitch, so the people that contributed before stretch goals were posted, are screwed, if there is a huge addition to development time.

Stretch goals shouldn't be so lofty in the first place, that they add large amounts of development time. They're chasing "dollars / more backers" for minor features, yet encumber themselves exponentially. (Which probably equates to costing more than they collected for the feature).

It's stupidity.... from a business perspective.

Who cares about extended dev cycles? As long as it results in a better game, what's the problem?

I'll never understand why some backers are so obsessed with the initial release estimates. Firstly, they are estimates. If you're planning your schedule around estimates, you've already failed. Secondly, we're talking about videogames here. How often does a videogame not get delayed? It's par for the course these days.

When backing a Kickstarter, there are only two things you should be concerned about:

1) Will the game be released?
2) Will the game be good?

As long as the answer to both questions is "yes," you have no reason to complain.
 
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24. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 23:21 Flatline
 
wtf_man wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 15:32:
Creston wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 12:31:
But a publisher also wouldn't approach a dev with a clear goal for a game, ask for a deadline, then a month later add 10 stretch goals to it and demand it still be delivered on the same release date. (well... a reasonable one wouldn't, anyway.)

Which is basically what some people are saying...

I don't buy that as an excuse.

Stretch goals aren't part of the initial pitch, so the people that contributed before stretch goals were posted, are screwed, if there is a huge addition to development time.

Stretch goals shouldn't be so lofty in the first place, that they add large amounts of development time. They're chasing "dollars / more backers" for minor features, yet encumber themselves exponentially. (Which probably equates to costing more than they collected for the feature).

It's stupidity.... from a business perspective.

Let's see here...

Cards Against Humanity was originally going to be printed on business cards. Their "stretch goal" was to print the game professionally and extended the turnover from like a month to like 3-6 months (I can't remember how long). Because of that they're the #1 game on Amazon.

Shadowrun Returns was going to have basically 8-bit pixel fidelity and be a fraction of the size the two campaigns ended up being. But because of stretch goals they were able to put out a product of significantly better quality and boost sales.

The guy behind Artisan Dice was hoping to make some pretty hardwood D6's and because of stretch goals and so much extra money he was able to start a business and now is one of the best artisan hardwood/stone/metal dice crafters out there.

I could keep going...

I'm rather glad people don't follow your advice. At least half my kickstarters are immensely better off for their stretch goals and enhanced money inflow.
 
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23. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 15:32 wtf_man
 
Creston wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 12:31:
But a publisher also wouldn't approach a dev with a clear goal for a game, ask for a deadline, then a month later add 10 stretch goals to it and demand it still be delivered on the same release date. (well... a reasonable one wouldn't, anyway.)

Which is basically what some people are saying...

I don't buy that as an excuse.

Stretch goals aren't part of the initial pitch, so the people that contributed before stretch goals were posted, are screwed, if there is a huge addition to development time.

Stretch goals shouldn't be so lofty in the first place, that they add large amounts of development time. They're chasing "dollars / more backers" for minor features, yet encumber themselves exponentially. (Which probably equates to costing more than they collected for the feature).

It's stupidity.... from a business perspective.
 
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22. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 15:21 CJ_Parker
 
Another KS dev that baited people with a pulled-out-of-ass unrealistic release date to give people the impression that what they're pledging for ain't too far away and now the truth comes out bit by bit.
I have backed Torment but needless to say that neither inXile nor any other KS will ever get any more of my money. The devs are just as dishonest and employing sleazy, shady practices to extract money from gamers as the publishers.
Fuck the whole bunch of them. My gaming future is $4.99 Steam sales for games that are supposed to be decent according to user reviews or a perceived general web consensus.
 
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21. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 12:31 Creston
 
wtf_man wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 09:17:
Number of Kickstarters I have received on time. ZERO.
Number of kickstarters I have received within a year of the initial projected date. ZERO.

That's just with my piddly $20-$30 pledges.

Imagine a publisher investing millions.
While I don't think publisher's should have creative say... they definitely should be able to demand reasonable deadlines.

And so far, I can't think of one single developer that can adhere to one... even when they set their own.

But a publisher also wouldn't approach a dev with a clear goal for a game, ask for a deadline, then a month later add 10 stretch goals to it and demand it still be delivered on the same release date. (well... a reasonable one wouldn't, anyway.)

Which is basically what some people are saying...
 
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20. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 12:29 Creston
 
PropheT wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 02:54:
I don't see why being clear and upfront about delays is better than not being incredibly wrong about what the original release was supposed to be. If a designer can't accurately guess within a year of their release date I question how they're calculating their budget to pay their people and do everything else during development of their project. The longer the disparity there, the more likely it is that they either fold entirely or cut corners before they can get you what you funded.

Because you are, in essence, asking them to guess how much time it will take to implement an X amount of stretch goals without knowing how much X is going to be.

In every game that I've backed, the delays have been because they are creating a bigger and/or better game, which I have no problem with. Every one of these bigger and better implementations came from stretch goals, which they can't foresee when they set their original release date.

We could argue that maybe they shouldn't do the whole stretch goal routine, but that's a different matter entirely, and (imo) would be foolish of them anyway, as stretch goals bring in a LOT of cash.
 
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19. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 12:09 Mad Max RW
 
A CRPG taking more than two years to develop? SHOCKING.  
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18. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 09:17 wtf_man
 
Number of Kickstarters I have received on time. ZERO.
Number of kickstarters I have received within a year of the initial projected date. ZERO.

That's just with my piddly $20-$30 pledges.

Imagine a publisher investing millions.
While I don't think publisher's should have creative say... they definitely should be able to demand reasonable deadlines.

And so far, I can't think of one single developer that can adhere to one... even when they set their own.
 
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17. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 06:26 Julio
 
Lord Tea wrote on Jun 13, 2014, 05:30:
I actually regret backing Wasteland 2 instead of this. Had I spent the same amount of money on TTON instead of W2, I'd have been playing Wasteland 2 from August, and then TTON sometime next year.

One of the reasons I don't mind delays, I've got around 8 upcoming games backed, so no need to have them all come out at the same time
 
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16. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 05:30 Lord Tea
 
Cutter wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 19:14:
So glad I didn't back this.

I actually regret backing Wasteland 2 instead of this. Had I spent the same amount of money on TTON instead of W2, I'd have been playing Wasteland 2 from August, and then TTON sometime next year. They could've thrown in a free copy of TTON for Wasteland 2 backers with a certain minimum pledge.

I'll enjoy playing W2 for certain but I learned from my mistake.
 
UPSA = United Police States of America
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15. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 02:54 PropheT
 
Creston wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 22:46:
Most of the things you've backed have probably raked in a lot more money than they originally asked for/thought they were going to have, right? All this extra stuff takes time to develop and implement.

It doesn't take rocket surgery to see that if Wasteland 2 was going to take longer to develop, that Torment would get pushed back as well on virtually a 1:1 scale, since the entire Wasteland 2 team is needed to actually make Torment.

I have no issues with this whatsoever. They are clear and upfront about these delays, they have logical reasons for delaying, and in the end it leads to a better game.

I'm sure that's the case, anything I've seen get funded at all has well exceeded their stated goals.

I don't think that's much of an excuse, though. When you're tacking on stretch goals repeatedly and extending what's necessary to get the project out the door then you need to give a realistic measurement of an expected release date. It's not that I expect everything to always meet that date or else, but more than a few projects aren't even landing within a year of what they originally stated; an arena-battle minis game I funded projected a release date of around Christmas last year, for example, and I'm still getting emails with pictures of unfinished sculpts for the minis 6 months after they had said they would ship.

I don't see why being clear and upfront about delays is better than not being incredibly wrong about what the original release was supposed to be. If a designer can't accurately guess within a year of their release date I question how they're calculating their budget to pay their people and do everything else during development of their project. The longer the disparity there, the more likely it is that they either fold entirely or cut corners before they can get you what you funded.
 
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14. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 01:25 Brataccas
 
They screwed up with the scheduling, no doubt about it. This is not a group of amateurs, they should have understood the issues with pushing TTON so close to Wasteland 2 launch. I still have faith that it will be worth the wait, but the lack of foresight is disappointing.

 
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13. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 13, 2014, 00:26 Cutter
 
Task wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 20:53:
Why because its not coming out when you want it to?

No. I don't like them because I feel they're incompetent and entirely unprofessional. It's like a bunch of high schoolers are running the show. That's my 2 coppers on the matter.

 
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"Bye weeks? Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye weeks, and now he's dead… Well, maybe they're a good thing." - Moe
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12. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 23:25 Redmask
 
Cutter wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 19:14:
So glad I didn't back this.

RPGs always take longer than expected, buck up kiddo.
 
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11. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 23:10 Creston
 
The Half Elf wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 22:52:
Want to make sure I have this straight... inXile did a kickstarter for Wasteland's 2 that hit it's funding goal (by almost 2 times the original goal), and then they did another kickstarter with the same team (that hit 4 times original goal). So they are working on 2 games at one time with the same team and then are pushing back (after several delays) the first game due to money issues because the game has become to large, and affecting the second game with a much larger budget?

I'm not the brightest crayon in the box, but something just doesn't seem right.

No, that's not really how it went. They did their first Kickstarter for Wasteland 2, which was insanely successful, and basically allowed them to put their entire team on Wasteland 2.

However, once Wasteland 2 was completely designed (ie, all the areas mapped out, all the storyline written, all the dialogue written etc) and ready to be handed over to the guys who were going to build it, they needed to find work to do for their designers. (ie, the Chris Avellone's of the world)

So they came back to Kickstarter and said "We'd like to do Torment, so that while our technical guys and artists and level designers and programmers are finishing Wasteland 2, we can get our design guys to work on the next game, as opposed to having to fire them." (which would have been the alternative.)

In no way, shape or form did they ever hide the fact that Torment was in design, and in design ONLY until Wasteland 2 was finished. Because the technical guys and artists and level designers and programmers they need for Torment are currently working on Wasteland 2.

Also, I have no idea where you're getting the money issues part from. Wasteland 2 has been pushed back multiple times to make it better. They've always been upfront about the why's and why not's. It's a 50+ hour game, it's going to take some time to build and test and get ready.

Once Wasteland 2 is out the door, and design is completely done for Torment, and it gets handed over to the other guys to actually make, InXile is going to go back to Kickstarter to fund their next game, so they can also keep their design guys employed constantly. (as opposed to having to fire them and then try to rehire them if they waited with new KS'ers until the current game was completely out the door.)

I have no issue with it, but I can see why people may not like it. In which case, simply don't back it. However, there is nothing shady going on, or whatever else you think may be happening.
 
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10. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 22:53 nin
 

I still have faith.

 
http://store.nin.com/index.php?cPath=10
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9. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 22:52 The Half Elf
 
Want to make sure I have this straight... inXile did a kickstarter for Wasteland's 2 that hit it's funding goal (by almost 2 times the original goal), and then they did another kickstarter with the same team (that hit 4 times original goal). So they are working on 2 games at one time with the same team and then are pushing back (after several delays) the first game due to money issues because the game has become to large, and affecting the second game with a much larger budget?

I'm not the brightest crayon in the box, but something just doesn't seem right.
 
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8. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 22:46 Creston
 
PropheT wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 22:25:
Julio wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 21:06:
I backed this. No problem with the delay, get the game right.

I don't disagree, but holy damn does it get annoying. I can't think of anything I've backed or even looked at on Kickstarter that actually shipped in the same ballpark as when they said it would during fundraising.

Most of the things you've backed have probably raked in a lot more money than they originally asked for/thought they were going to have, right? All this extra stuff takes time to develop and implement.

It doesn't take rocket surgery to see that if Wasteland 2 was going to take longer to develop, that Torment would get pushed back as well on virtually a 1:1 scale, since the entire Wasteland 2 team is needed to actually make Torment.

I have no issues with this whatsoever. They are clear and upfront about these delays, they have logical reasons for delaying, and in the end it leads to a better game.
 
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7. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 22:27 Optional Nickname!
 
Numenera, based on what I've read and seen so far (which includes the official game books) is fundamentally different than your typical and by now well understood D&D game mechanic. No exp for killing monsters, for example.

Also, the settings are quite fantastic and outré, requiring significant effort even with story-boarding. All this with a much smaller team than the other big kickstarted games. George Zeits is literally moving back to the California studio to work on Numenera full time.

Thusly informed I expect further delays, but I also ultimately expect something very different from Numenera, possibly great but I dare not say that louder than a whisper at this point.
 
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6. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Delayed Again Jun 12, 2014, 22:25 PropheT
 
Julio wrote on Jun 12, 2014, 21:06:
I backed this. No problem with the delay, get the game right.

I don't disagree, but holy damn does it get annoying. I can't think of anything I've backed or even looked at on Kickstarter that actually shipped in the same ballpark as when they said it would during fundraising.
 
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