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Morning Legal Briefs

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42. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 22:45 Bard
 
mag wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 14:04:
jdreyer wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 13:57:
Xil wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 11:22:
The masses get bored faster, would Snowden still have been able to keep the steady flow of news going if he had stayed in the USA, if not then he would have been yesterdays news pretty fast and to be honest give it a few more months and he will be, that dude that..... He still paying the price of living in exile for the rest of his life but I guess it beats Guantanamo bay or where ever they would have whisked him off too.

Snowden and Greenwald's strategy to continuously trickle stuff out over 1.5 years has been quite genius. They've managed to keep it in the news on nearly a weekly basis since the story broke.

100% agree. A lot of people are criticizing him for this, saying that it's because he's an egomaniac. But it is the absolute best way to do it, if the intent is to effect change.

Kill the messenger - same thing as with Assange, but only the already brainwashed treat that with anything other than ridicule.
 
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41. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 21:56 Bard
 
55% understand the issue, the oth 45% believe what they've been told to believe.

There used to be whistleblower protections which would have made what Snowden did completely legal, but Dubya gutted those, and started throwing whistleblowers in jail.

When the N.S.A. bald faced lied to congress Snowden realised that the system is completely corrupt and did exactly what he needed to, for his country.

he's a hero, far more of one than those who blindly obey orders because they are 'legal'.
 
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40. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 19:39 HorrorScope
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 10:02:
Look guilty? He IS guilty. He broke the law. He's not a "traitor", but he's definitely a coward. H

Dude has more balls than everyone here combined, he sacrificed his livelihood for Americans. Coward? I'd say those that secretly agree with him that still work at the NSA and collect a pay check, them there are cowards.

Anyone calling him a coward including the flat out lying Kerry. "He can tell America his side of the story" is just trying to muddy the waters with propaganda. He's in the right the NSA isn't and long term it's a slam dunk that this will be the conclusion.
 
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39. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 19:04 Cutter
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:29:
It's the timing of the whole thing. At the time he leaked the information the people were outraged. They had a bad guy (US government) and the good guy (Snowden). Classic David v. Goliath scenario. His message was out already, so him being further silenced is completely irrelevant. He was a hero, but, and this is my point, he 1) RAN, and 2) to Russia, all but destroying his capability to be the symbol that could help to change government policy. He's not a coward for having the balls to step up. He's a coward for running to freaking Russia, of all damn places. It wrecks his credibility and makes his sacrifice meaningless.

As others stated, that wasn't his choice. He's stranded there because of the US Government. Christ, the Bolivian President's jet was FORCED down by the US Government because it was RUMORED that Snowden was on board. Another clear violation of international law, so what hope would Snowden stand at home of a fair trial?

Tell you what, you go out and expose a major government wrong. And when you're sitting in prison for the rest of your life we'll all come and hold a candlelight vigil outside the prison extoling how brave you are because you chose to stay and face the music. I'm sure that'll be of immense comfort as you rot away for the rest of your life.
 
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38. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 16:00 Task
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 14:05:
Other examples include Binney and Drake, two guys who worked for the NSA, tried to get stuff changed within the system, and when they failed, went public. They were arrested and harassed to no end despite following whistleblower procedures perfectly.

Exactly. I know of those two as well, heroic folks. There are decent people in government, the agencies, and the army for that matter who do not approve with what has been on for decades. Many of them have quit their posts, many have blown the whistle, but its becoming more and more difficult for them to do without serious consequences. Binney has even stated u.s. citizens live in a police state.
 
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37. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 14:13 Lord Tea
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 13:57:
Xil wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 11:22:
The masses get bored faster, would Snowden still have been able to keep the steady flow of news going if he had stayed in the USA, if not then he would have been yesterdays news pretty fast and to be honest give it a few more months and he will be, that dude that..... He still paying the price of living in exile for the rest of his life but I guess it beats Guantanamo bay or where ever they would have whisked him off too.

Snowden and Greenwald's strategy to continuously trickle stuff out over 1.5 years has been quite genius. They've managed to keep it in the news on nearly a weekly basis since the story broke.

And despite the continuous flow of shocking news little to nothing is happening here in Europe. It almost feels like most European governments are happily in bed with the US government. Or they're too scared to act.
 
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36. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 14:05 jdreyer
 
Task wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:29:
With what happened to Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Snowden wouldn't have stood a chance. The white house loves its power and any dissent is a nuisance in their backside to state power and exposing their crimes. Obama didn't even have the decency to pardon him, seeing as Obama is just an oligarch like the rest following the advice of crazy as hell people in government or power.

Another good example is Sibel Edmonds, although she got lucky and only got harassed, plus her Husband has connections - I highly recommend Sibel Edmonds Documentary - Kill The Messenger. And that was during Bush's reign, they tried to silence any information from whistleblowers in the FBI that were stating the intelligence agencies had not cut off support to "al queda" all the way up to wtc '01 incident.

The same things have happened following WW2, leading up to the 60s, and up to now. Always the government gets caught lying, or otherwise getting caught in illegal activities (that go unpunished) information leaks out, the government reacts by defending its power, etc.

Other examples include Binney and Drake, two guys who worked for the NSA, tried to get stuff changed within the system, and when they failed, went public. They were arrested and harassed to no end despite following whistleblower procedures perfectly.
 
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35. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 14:04 mag
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 13:57:
Xil wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 11:22:
The masses get bored faster, would Snowden still have been able to keep the steady flow of news going if he had stayed in the USA, if not then he would have been yesterdays news pretty fast and to be honest give it a few more months and he will be, that dude that..... He still paying the price of living in exile for the rest of his life but I guess it beats Guantanamo bay or where ever they would have whisked him off too.

Snowden and Greenwald's strategy to continuously trickle stuff out over 1.5 years has been quite genius. They've managed to keep it in the news on nearly a weekly basis since the story broke.

100% agree. A lot of people are criticizing him for this, saying that it's because he's an egomaniac. But it is the absolute best way to do it, if the intent is to effect change.
 
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34. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 14:02 jdreyer
 
Prez wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:21:
I have to say that had I been in his situation I am fairly certain I would have done everything he did, including running. The U.S. government has become something to be feared, which is sad.

I wholly reject the notion that he is in any way a coward; a coward would have seen the shit the government was doing and said nothing, or rationalized it away.

It's even more amazing to think that he was living in Hawaii, making well over six figures, and living with a total hottie. Only a man of the strongest convictions could turn that down.
 
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33. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:57 jdreyer
 
Xil wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 11:22:
The masses get bored faster, would Snowden still have been able to keep the steady flow of news going if he had stayed in the USA, if not then he would have been yesterdays news pretty fast and to be honest give it a few more months and he will be, that dude that..... He still paying the price of living in exile for the rest of his life but I guess it beats Guantanamo bay or where ever they would have whisked him off too.

Snowden and Greenwald's strategy to continuously trickle stuff out over 1.5 years has been quite genius. They've managed to keep it in the news on nearly a weekly basis since the story broke.
 
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"It's just a bunch of mystic bovine scatology to me." - 1badmf
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32. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:55 jdreyer
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 11:01:
Nope. It sucks, but its not illegal. We elect people to make the laws and they delegated the authority to a secret court in the name of national security. It's appallingly legit.

There's no such thing as privacy in a world with the technology that we have. That's the trade-off. Someone is always going to be going after your data if you're connected. That's just the way it is. You still have a choice. They haven't implanted anything in you... yet.

The fourth amendment would beg to differ.

The precise reason it's secret is so that they can avoid having the debate about whether it's legal.
 
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31. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:51 jdreyer
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 10:52:
nor can I, and I might have also made the same decision, except for where to run to. I mean, China AND Russia? Christ. At least try Ecuador.

Ironically, he could only take refuge in a country with powerful and encompassing state security. It would be too easy for the CIA to snatch him (or drone him or extradite him) in Ecuador, or nearly any other country except Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, and maybe a couple of others. Given that list of places, I'd probably prefer Russia.
 
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30. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:47 jdreyer
 
[VG]Reagle wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 10:30:
The NSA SUCKS DONKEY DICKS DUDES. Seriously. The NSA needs to print the constitution on their toilet paper. Because that how they treat it. I think Snowden needs a presidential pardon.

A Pres pardon is the right idea, but it won't come from Obama. He's been one of the worst in prosecuting leakers and whistleblowers, despite floral rhetoric to the contrary. Also, even with a pardon, I doubt he'd return. He's made powerful enemies in the security state.
 
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29. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:43 jdreyer
 
InBlack wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 09:46:
I would say that he 'mostly' did the right thing. He did everything 'right' except one thing. He should have never have left the US. Basically thats the main argument and sticking point of anyone who believes him to be a traitor. Using the Guardian and foreign journalists to expose the dealings at NSA was definitely the right move, but leaving the States makes him look guilty to the masses of gullible sheep that drink the Kool Aid.

When you expose the Mafia boss crimes, only a fool continues to hang out in said Mafia boss's living room. Given what happened to Drake, Binney, Manning, and others, I really don't blame him. The man is a whistleblower not a martyr.
 
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28. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:21 NegaDeath
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:29:
It's the timing of the whole thing. At the time he leaked the information the people were outraged. They had a bad guy (US government) and the good guy (Snowden). Classic David v. Goliath scenario. His message was out already, so him being further silenced is completely irrelevant. He was a hero, but, and this is my point, he 1) RAN, and 2) to Russia, all but destroying his capability to be the symbol that could help to change government policy. He's not a coward for having the balls to step up. He's a coward for running to freaking Russia, of all damn places. It wrecks his credibility and makes his sacrifice meaningless.

If he was in US hands he would be put on display and publicly broken. Every character flaw would be on primetime news. There's one thing the drooling masses pay attention to more than a hero and it's a villain and the Government knows this very well. If they controlled him that's exactly what they would turn him in to. The comparisons to what Mandela went through don't apply anymore, the media age has changed things too much.
 
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27. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 13:04 mag
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:29:
Cutter wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:10:
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 10:02:
Look guilty? He IS guilty. He broke the law. He's not a "traitor", but he's definitely a coward. He had a great opportunity to stand for something bigger than himself and be a symbol for what the people want. Less intrusion. the vast majority of Americans were outraged by what was/is going on. He blew it for himself and for everyone else, tbh.

Yes, he knowingly destroyed his life to do the right thing, what a chickenshit bastard. Rolleyes

And what would be gained by him sitting in prison for the rest of his life or being killed? He didn't create the program. He didn't authorize it. And out of the thousands and thousands of people involved in this he was the only one who had the stones to stand up and say it was wrong, and that's your definition of cowardice? What the fuck are you smoking?

It's the timing of the whole thing. At the time he leaked the information the people were outraged. They had a bad guy (US government) and the good guy (Snowden). Classic David v. Goliath scenario. His message was out already, so him being further silenced is completely irrelevant. He was a hero, but, and this is my point, he 1) RAN, and 2) to Russia, all but destroying his capability to be the symbol that could help to change government policy. He's not a coward for having the balls to step up. He's a coward for running to freaking Russia, of all damn places. It wrecks his credibility and makes his sacrifice meaningless.

Because apparently it needs to keep being repeated:

HE DIDN'T RUN TO RUSSIA.

HE GOT STUCK IN RUSSIA BECAUSE THE US GOVERNMENT CANCELED HIS PASSPORT AND GROUNDED THE FLIGHT HE WAS GOING TO TAKE TO SOUTH AMERICA.

You want someone to blame for him being left in Russia's hands for the past year? Blame the US government.

His big mistake was revealing everything before he'd 1) arrived where he wanted to stay long-term and 2) secured asylum.
 
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26. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 12:29 Task
 
With what happened to Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Snowden wouldn't have stood a chance. The white house loves its power and any dissent is a nuisance in their backside to state power and exposing their crimes. Obama didn't even have the decency to pardon him, seeing as Obama is just an oligarch like the rest following the advice of crazy as hell people in government or power.

Another good example is Sibel Edmonds, although she got lucky and only got harassed, plus her Husband has connections - I highly recommend Sibel Edmonds Documentary - Kill The Messenger. And that was during Bush's reign, they tried to silence any information from whistleblowers in the FBI that were stating the intelligence agencies had not cut off support to "al queda" all the way up to wtc '01 incident.

The same things have happened following WW2, leading up to the 60s, and up to now. Always the government gets caught lying, or otherwise getting caught in illegal activities (that go unpunished) information leaks out, the government reacts by defending its power, etc.
 
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25. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 12:29 Dagnamit
 
Cutter wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 12:10:
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 9, 2014, 10:02:
Look guilty? He IS guilty. He broke the law. He's not a "traitor", but he's definitely a coward. He had a great opportunity to stand for something bigger than himself and be a symbol for what the people want. Less intrusion. the vast majority of Americans were outraged by what was/is going on. He blew it for himself and for everyone else, tbh.

Yes, he knowingly destroyed his life to do the right thing, what a chickenshit bastard. Rolleyes

And what would be gained by him sitting in prison for the rest of his life or being killed? He didn't create the program. He didn't authorize it. And out of the thousands and thousands of people involved in this he was the only one who had the stones to stand up and say it was wrong, and that's your definition of cowardice? What the fuck are you smoking?

It's the timing of the whole thing. At the time he leaked the information the people were outraged. They had a bad guy (US government) and the good guy (Snowden). Classic David v. Goliath scenario. His message was out already, so him being further silenced is completely irrelevant. He was a hero, but, and this is my point, he 1) RAN, and 2) to Russia, all but destroying his capability to be the symbol that could help to change government policy. He's not a coward for having the balls to step up. He's a coward for running to freaking Russia, of all damn places. It wrecks his credibility and makes his sacrifice meaningless.
 
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24. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 12:21 Prez
 
I have to say that had I been in his situation I am fairly certain I would have done everything he did, including running. The U.S. government has become something to be feared, which is sad.

I wholly reject the notion that he is in any way a coward; a coward would have seen the shit the government was doing and said nothing, or rationalized it away.
 
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23. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 9, 2014, 12:18 Beamer
 
He won't get a presidential pardon any time soon because he ran.

Which, frankly, is a convenient excuse. He'd be in a military prison somewhere if he hadn't run, and they'd be saying that he needs to go through a military trial before anyone talks about pardoning him, and he'd spend a few years likely in solitary confinement awaiting that trial...
 
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