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Morning Legal Briefs

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31 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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31. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 7, 2014, 05:28 Simon Says
 
Oh for FUCK SAKE! Stop with that FALSE DILEMMA FALLACY weapons of mass distraction CRAP and actually FOCUS ON THE GODDAMN LEAKS! Wake up people, we're being played like pawns.  
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30. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 7, 2014, 04:05 jdreyer
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Jun 7, 2014, 01:19:
I applaud him for what he did - we need more people like him. The real question is how come no one is in jail here in the US for the things they have done? Not one head has rolled.

This is the key question. Both NSA Director Keith Alexander and DNI James Clapper perjured themselves to congress, a felony punishable by five years in federal prison. This is also why the Attorney General of the USA should be an independent office elected as a separate position. It would greatly reduce the likelihood that the AG will be beholden to the POTUS, as is currently the case with Holder and previously with Gonzales. Then we might get some REAL criminal charges brought against both corrupt politicians and corporate malfeasance like the banksters.
 
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29. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 7, 2014, 01:19 xXBatmanXx
 
I applaud him for what he did - we need more people like him. The real question is how come no one is in jail here in the US for the things they have done? Not one head has rolled.  
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28. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 7, 2014, 00:28 HorrorScope
 
Saboth wrote on Jun 6, 2014, 20:30:
The definition of a traitor is someone who sells out his people for personal gain. The only thing he gained from this was a terrible life on the run. If you know your boss is doing something illegal, like our government is doing, who then hides behind "national security" in order to continue, then you are a patriot for exposing it. If your government circumvents the highest law in the land (The Constitution), then it's your duty to expose it to your fellow citizens. A democracy can not be effective or even continue if half of what the government does is hidden behind "national security". You vote for the person that you think will do the best job, but how can you make an informed decision when you have no idea what is going on? I assume that the people that state he was in the wrong because he broke the laws and rules of his employment are fine when German soldiers were only "following orders"? We should have let them off the hook because they chose to follow a corrupt regime? If you want to go root out some traitors, go to Congress and round 'em up. People that actually are selling out their country to the highest bidders strictly for personal gain.

Right on. This gov't we have today is just impossibly twisted.
 
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27. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 22:03 [VG]Reagle
 
Saboth wrote on Jun 6, 2014, 20:30:
The definition of a traitor is someone who sells out his people for personal gain.

How dare you you define a traitor like this! It's he who sells out his people period end of story. You sell us out for any reason ... you are a traitor.

Although snowden is a traitor. I would support a presidential pardon because the NSA is breaking the law so many ways it's not even funny...
 
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I am MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better now.
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26. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 20:30 Saboth
 
The definition of a traitor is someone who sells out his people for personal gain. The only thing he gained from this was a terrible life on the run. If you know your boss is doing something illegal, like our government is doing, who then hides behind "national security" in order to continue, then you are a patriot for exposing it. If your government circumvents the highest law in the land (The Constitution), then it's your duty to expose it to your fellow citizens. A democracy can not be effective or even continue if half of what the government does is hidden behind "national security". You vote for the person that you think will do the best job, but how can you make an informed decision when you have no idea what is going on? I assume that the people that state he was in the wrong because he broke the laws and rules of his employment are fine when German soldiers were only "following orders"? We should have let them off the hook because they chose to follow a corrupt regime? If you want to go root out some traitors, go to Congress and round 'em up. People that actually are selling out their country to the highest bidders strictly for personal gain.  
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25. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 19:14 HorrorScope
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 6, 2014, 13:00:
Snowden should probably be in jail. He broke the law.

I'm cool with that, if every other person who broke the law that should require jail time be jailed. There are plenty of people in power that have gotten away with something or another. He's a hero, because he punked the corruption and surrendered his QOL for us.

In the McCain vs Obama debates, they both said each other parties were corrupt and then decided that ok we're both corrupt. So like I'm supposed to have deep caring feelings for them now? They just told America they admit they are corrupt.

Then liar Kerry with the devils tongue say "Comeback and tell America your story", yeah they'd allow that, what obvious BS.
 
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24. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 17:07 Quboid
 
I'd rather he was put on trial in the U.S. but I wouldn't blame him if he felt that he wouldn't get a trial, wouldn't get a fair trial, or wouldn't live long enough to be put on trial. He'd be relatively hard to touch now, but before the shit went down he couldn't have known if he would be safe - I'm in no doubt that he would have been killed if the NSA found out and could have done it in time to keep all this quiet.

He went to China and Russia because they're the only places that have more to gain from standing up to the US than caving in - I don't think it reflects very well on the USA that these regimes are apparently (to someone in his circumstances) fairer than it.

I doubt anyone who calls him a coward has ever done anything as brave. He knew he would spend life in some sort of prison (even if it's of his choosing) if he wasn't killed and he would have had months, perhaps years to back out of it. Whether or not you agree with what he did, surely anyone can see that this took bravery unless it's inconvenient to do so.
 
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- Quboid
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23. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 16:22 jdreyer
 
@Newmaxx: Unfortunately, the way NSA whistleblowers William Binney and Thomas Drake (And PFC Manning) were treated forced Snowden's hand if he A. Wanted his info to be completely disseminated, and B. wanted any chance at all of a fair hearing. Whistleblower protections are completely broken, as evidenced by their treatment and lawsuits against them. I agree that he broke the law, but much of what was exposed was government lawbreaking. If there was a way that could be exposed without repercussion in this country, I'm sure he wouldn't have done what he did.  
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22. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 14:29 nutshell42
 
Long story short, he lost all credibility, but the question about him being a traitor or not cannot be simply hand-waved away without deeper analysis.

Let's ignore the question whether he's a hypocrite or not for a moment, in what way did he lose *credibility*? None of the stuff from his leaks has been wrong. In many cases we no have confirmation that what he said and made public was correct.

I really don't think "credibility" was the word you're looking for.


And while we're talking about people not knowing what you're talking about; the GP called him a coward which is just about the most ridiculous thing ever. The cowardly thing would have been to stay in the cushy job in Hawaii with a six figure salary and an unlimited job guarantee. You can argue whether he fled the country to escape jail or to make sure he wouldn't be silenced but he definitely threw away his comfortable life to protect the freedoms of you ungrateful "§$%) and give proof that the government committed crimes against the constitution on a massive scale; whatever he is, he is not a coward.


Now into the realm of opinion instead of fact: I don't think he's a hypocrite; and the only reason he's in Russia is because the US bullied every other option into refusing him.
 
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21. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 14:25 jdreyer
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 6, 2014, 13:00:
Snowden should probably be in jail. He broke the law. He'd have a much better time of it if he'd stayed here in the first place. Political pressure because of the popular backlash might have been enough to free him. Now he's just a coward that ran to China AND Russia of all the damn places.

You can't really call anyone a traitor if the likes of G Gordon Liddy are walking free, and in fact, making money on their infamy. Despicable.

Hey, Ollie North even has his own TV show.
 
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20. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 13:59 NegaDeath
 
Russia and China were on his list of countries to escape to because US automatic extradition treaties exist with allied nations preventing him from going to places that most people would prefer. If the goal was not to be extradited I mean. If it wasn't for that he'd be in a democratic nation right now.  
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19. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 13:31 NewMaxx
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 6, 2014, 13:00:
Snowden should probably be in jail. He broke the law. He'd have a much better time of it if he'd stayed here in the first place. Political pressure because of the popular backlash might have been enough to free him. Now he's just a coward that ran to China AND Russia of all the damn places.

No kidding. It's true that a real patriot would be willing to be a whistle-blower and perhaps even a refugee, but if China and Russia are the only countries you think are capable of sheltering you - countries known for their blatant human rights violations and oppressive governments - then it's tough not to come off looking like a hypocrite.

Did he try to affect change where he worked? It seems he did make people aware, but was reluctant to risk himself directly without a way to escape with evidence. Intelligence is a murky thing and the whistle-blower protections don't necessarily apply there. In other words, he probably did try proper channels and probably would have been silenced or at great risk, but as you say the popular backlash in the States (as opposed to other "patriots" in history who lived under oppressive regimes) likely would have been sufficient.

The problem with that sentiment is that people today in free countries are of the "democratic" opinion that everything should be easy, straightforward, and make sense at the maximum of one layer of depth. It's far more complicated than that. The average person tries to be an enlightened politico as if their knowledge is in any way sufficient to make a judgment. It's like people who supported Kim Dotcom because he "fought the man," or people who (as has been the case since the inception of the United States) feel lawyers and the law are overly complex while wanting 5000 explicit freedoms under it against their fellow man.

Long story short, he lost all credibility, but the question about him being a traitor or not cannot be simply hand-waved away without deeper analysis.
 
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18. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 13:25 xXBatmanXx
 
Edward Snowden is 'a textbook traitor,' Andreessen says

Give me 8 hours of research, lunch, and 1 assistant, and I can probably find 20 traitors currently in positions of power in our Government.....just in DC.
 
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17. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 13:19 Cutter
 
Dagnamit wrote on Jun 6, 2014, 13:00:
Snowden should probably be in jail. He broke the law. He'd have a much better time of it if he'd stayed here in the first place. Political pressure because of the popular backlash might have been enough to free him. Now he's just a coward that ran to China AND Russia of all the damn places.

You can't really call anyone a traitor if the likes of G Gordon Liddy are walking free, and in fact, making money on their infamy. Despicable.

Yeah, well when all you right wing fascists admit that Nixon, Reagan, Bush, and pals all committed treason and should be tried for it then I'll give some credence to what you're saying. Until then all I hear is 'Blah blah blah I'm a massive hypocrite.'
 
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16. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 13:00 Dagnamit
 
Snowden should probably be in jail. He broke the law. He'd have a much better time of it if he'd stayed here in the first place. Political pressure because of the popular backlash might have been enough to free him. Now he's just a coward that ran to China AND Russia of all the damn places.

You can't really call anyone a traitor if the likes of G Gordon Liddy are walking free, and in fact, making money on their infamy. Despicable.
 
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15. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 12:51 Quboid
 
Marc Andreessen [...] said that foreign nations may use the disclosures as an excuse to promote their domestic technology suppliers over American rivals.

That's not the NSA's fault? Just an idea, but maybe if people don't consider American equipment to be secure, the American organisation making American equipment less secure might deserve to shoulder the blame.

Snowden chose his country over his government. If you think that's treachery, you and I have very different definitions.
 
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14. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 12:01 Cutter
 
Hrm what's that thing that politicians do when entering office in the US? Oh yeah, the Oath of Office....

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

So not a one of them has lived up to their oath. But a patriot at great personal cost to himself has, and somehow he's the traitor? Suck it Marc. Suck it long and suck it hard. People like you who are enemies of the Constitution are the real traitors.
 
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13. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 11:58 Task
 
These people, Shills and Government thought of/think of as traitors for blowing the whistle: Daniel Elsberg, Sibel Edmonds (FBI), Thomas Drake (NSA), Bradley/Chelsea Manning, John Kiriakou (CIA), William Binney (NSA), Russ Tice (NSA), Katharine Gun (U.K GCHQ), Edward Snowden (NSA), Jesselyn Radack (Department of Justice). (and many more I didn't list)

That's quite a growing list!

Andreessen missed out on a proper history class lesson - spying on your own people is meant to crush dissent (5,000 years of history for proof). He's just worried about money in this context.

As Elsberg wrote recently, "More importantly, the current state of whistleblowing prosecutions under the Espionage Act makes a truly fair trial wholly unavailable to an American who has exposed classified wrongdoing."
 
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12. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 6, 2014, 11:45 NegaDeath
 
"Textbook", as long as you don't count the lawbook which says he isn't. But they don't pay much attention to that book.  
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31 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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