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Women In Video Games Initiative

The Fine Young Capitalists is a game project looking to increase the presence of women in video game development, embracing anyone who identifies themselves as female. Here's their pitch for your pitch:

Any person who identifies as a woman can prepare a proposal of up to 1,500 words in length explaining their concept for a video game. Each pitch will be judged on originality, financial viability, level of immersion, fun, aesthetic and feasibility with the require budget. The top 5 proposal will be given to professional concept artists and writers to create a fully realized pitch document that they can use to sell the concept to 3rd parties.

These pitches will be placed online and voted on by anyone interested in supporting women in video game design, with the pitch that receives the most votes being made into a real game and digitally distributed for the entire world. Profits from the sale of game will be given to charity.

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44. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 31, 2014, 10:43 Beamer
 
wrlwnd wrote on Mar 30, 2014, 00:01:
Beamer wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:19:
I'll again point out that women score better in math and science. And are routinely pushed away from any kind of computer-related job because most men that end up there are extremely aggro against women and push them right out.

I like the way you make "facts" up and push them right out. And we're all just expected to accept them unchallenged. Well done.

which would you like me to source? Both points are easily Google able and have been widely reported on and mentioned on this site, though I doubt people like you will see the latter a problem and instead argue they're isolated incidents. Because it fits the storyline you're comfortable with where you're a victim, not part if an ongoing problem.
 
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43. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 31, 2014, 08:36 gray
 
How is this even legal?

Sex discrimination also can involve treating someone less favorably because of his or her connection with an organization or group that is generally associated with people of a certain sex.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm
 
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42. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 30, 2014, 13:30 Eirikrautha
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Mar 30, 2014, 01:14:
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:07:
Your argument is that if the numbers aren't exactly equal... then racism (or sexism, or insert-ism-here). That's the least intellectual argument in the history of arguments.

Not equal, proportional.

Do you agree that talent in computing is independent of gender and race? Yes or no? If yes, why wouldn't we want to ensure roughly proportional representation in the field, since non-proportionate representation would imply that some talent is going to waste? If no, if talent is dependent on gender and race, how is that not sexist and racist?

And remember: I already acknowledged that it COULD be true that white and Asian men are just naturally and innately more talented at computer science and programming -- I don't believe that, but it is possible. But if that is the case, if the reason computing is mad up mostly of white and Asian men is that those groups are just better at it than other groups, then those that believe that need to be honest and argue that racism and sexism shouldn't be demonized because some races are just better than others at certain things, and that we shouldn't try to get proportional representation in all fields.

Look, hard as this may be for you to believe, I'm not trying to demonize you; I'm trying to get you to be honest and say what you actually mean. You're adamantly against trying to achieve proportional representation, and your stated reason is that it lowers standards. But the only way I can see it lowering standards -- and you haven't offered an alternative here -- is if the underrepresented groups, i.e. women, blacks, and Hispanics, are innately less talented. The implied premise of your argument then is inherently racist and sexist, but when presented with that, rather than offering an alternative premise for the conclusion that proportional representation will lower standards, you whine about being demonized as sexist or racist. If it's that upsetting to you, then don't make implicitly racist and sexist arguments, and instead present your actual premises, which you claim to be unblemished by prejudicial thinking.

edit: As an aside, I do think it is possible to argue that, in some areas, talent is dependent, to an extent, on gender, and possibly race as well. For example, there is a reason we don't see women players in the NFL: the female body, even an outlier female body, simply isn't going to be competitive in that level of play of that sport. Likewise, you don't see many Asian men in the NFL, probably for a variety of reasons, but partly because it's pretty rare that men of Asian descent are built like, well, NFL players. So athletics is an area where I believe it is legitimate to make the argument that talent is dependent, to a certain extent, on race and gender, and thus proportional racial and gender representation would imply a lowering of standards. Are you willing to make that same argument with regard to computing? Or are you going to continue to state the same conclusion, while keeping your premises hidden?

First:

"Do you agree that talent in computing is independent of gender and race? Yes or no? If yes, why wouldn't we want to ensure roughly proportional representation in the field, since non-proportionate representation would imply that some talent is going to waste?"

I agree that talent in computing is independent of gender or race. Period. The rest of this quote then shows where you are mistaken. Who is the "we in the "we want to ensure..."? If the "we" is the women, minorities, space aliens, or whomever's numbers don't "add up," then I've got no problem with it. If the "we" is you, the government, so called "public interest" groups, etc., then I have a BIG problem with it. Were the contest in the OP directed towards finding the best new game designers, with a caveat that encouraged women to apply ("we'd really like to help more women navigate the field, but you've got to be good!"), I probably wouldn't have even posted. But it is exclusive to women, and I find that as abhorrent as a design competition exclusive to men, or whites, or anything. Unless you are looking for the "best," you are a racist, sexist, or whatever name people want to throw around. But it seems that racism and sexism are ok, so long at is directed at the people "you" (whoever the "you" might be, not directed at you personally) don't like. I find it highly amusing that there are a number of anti-discrimination organizations in western Europe that are dedicated to defeating stereotypes of Muslims... that then go on and say the most anti-Semitic things possible. This is what Balkanization normalizes...

Also, someone deciding that they won't go into game design (even though they are talented) only implies that "talent is going to waste" if you believe that people are one-dimensional. It may be that they choose to do something they are even more talented in. Or they may choose to do something that they are LESS talented in, but that they love more. I don't see a problem with either.

I'll not respond to the second paragraph, as it doesn't apply to me or my argument. As for "lowering standards," that is a product of narrowing fields. If you are looking for the best; you will often get the best (not always, but that is life). If you are looking for the best women; you may get the best women at than time, place, circumstance, etc., but that will not necessarily be the best overall. A lot of it has to do with circumstance.

Show me that the numbers of women in gaming is directly related to systematic selection against them and I might be sympathetic (though my remedy may still not be what you want). But simply noticing a number difference is NOT a priori evidence that such a system exists. Human choice and variability account for the vast majority of said differences. When video games were in their infancy, they may not have appealed to women as much as they do now (based on various cultural or personal decisions WOMEN made... not you or me or the man). We've seen a growth in women in gaming. It would stand to reason that the numbers of women who want to make games would rise (and it has). I don't see this as a justification for sexism on the part of the OP or other entities, then...
 
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41. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 30, 2014, 01:14 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:07:
Your argument is that if the numbers aren't exactly equal... then racism (or sexism, or insert-ism-here). That's the least intellectual argument in the history of arguments.

Not equal, proportional.

Do you agree that talent in computing is independent of gender and race? Yes or no? If yes, why wouldn't we want to ensure roughly proportional representation in the field, since non-proportionate representation would imply that some talent is going to waste? If no, if talent is dependent on gender and race, how is that not sexist and racist?

And remember: I already acknowledged that it COULD be true that white and Asian men are just naturally and innately more talented at computer science and programming -- I don't believe that, but it is possible. But if that is the case, if the reason computing is mad up mostly of white and Asian men is that those groups are just better at it than other groups, then those that believe that need to be honest and argue that racism and sexism shouldn't be demonized because some races are just better than others at certain things, and that we shouldn't try to get proportional representation in all fields.

Look, hard as this may be for you to believe, I'm not trying to demonize you; I'm trying to get you to be honest and say what you actually mean. You're adamantly against trying to achieve proportional representation, and your stated reason is that it lowers standards. But the only way I can see it lowering standards -- and you haven't offered an alternative here -- is if the underrepresented groups, i.e. women, blacks, and Hispanics, are innately less talented. The implied premise of your argument then is inherently racist and sexist, but when presented with that, rather than offering an alternative premise for the conclusion that proportional representation will lower standards, you whine about being demonized as sexist or racist. If it's that upsetting to you, then don't make implicitly racist and sexist arguments, and instead present your actual premises, which you claim to be unblemished by prejudicial thinking.

edit: As an aside, I do think it is possible to argue that, in some areas, talent is dependent, to an extent, on gender, and possibly race as well. For example, there is a reason we don't see women players in the NFL: the female body, even an outlier female body, simply isn't going to be competitive in that level of play of that sport. Likewise, you don't see many Asian men in the NFL, probably for a variety of reasons, but partly because it's pretty rare that men of Asian descent are built like, well, NFL players. So athletics is an area where I believe it is legitimate to make the argument that talent is dependent, to a certain extent, on race and gender, and thus proportional racial and gender representation would imply a lowering of standards. Are you willing to make that same argument with regard to computing? Or are you going to continue to state the same conclusion, while keeping your premises hidden?

This comment was edited on Mar 30, 2014, 01:22.
 
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40. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 30, 2014, 00:01 wrlwnd
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:19:
I'll again point out that women score better in math and science. And are routinely pushed away from any kind of computer-related job because most men that end up there are extremely aggro against women and push them right out.

I like the way you make "facts" up and push them right out. And we're all just expected to accept them unchallenged. Well done.
 
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39. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 21:21 Eirikrautha
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:19:
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:07:
If only the world were so simple! That's why your argument is destined for the dust bin of history. Because life is way more complex than your social policy via greeting card. There are many reasons that certain groups may not be represented at the same rates in certain categories (not the least of which is the actual categories themselves... many problems exist only when the categories are finagled just right). Your argument is that if the numbers aren't exactly equal... then racism (or sexism, or insert-ism-here). That's the least intellectual argument in the history of arguments. So just because you can't fathom a set of conditions where it could happen, it's impossible?

There are many factors that help determine what a person chooses to do with his or her life. Culture is a big one... but not in the way you think. You guys can call me anything you like, because at the end of the day, we both know that all of the screams of -isms are a tactic designed to stifle debate. If your argument held water, you wouldn't need to try and shame people with cries of sexism... you'd be able to objectively prove your point. So caterwaul away... it only makes the obvious more so...

Again, you're a terrible human being unable to see through any eyes other than your own.

I'll again point out that women score better in math and science. And are routinely pushed away from any kind of computer-related job because most men that end up there are extremely aggro against women and push them right out.

It's so odd that you think that "you need to prove your point" is your retort, when there's really an infinite amount of incidents out there where a woman was pushed out of a coding job because the men around her were so damn creepy.

Video games, both as a hobby and as a career, are about 90% men. This, to you, is a sign that women inherently don't like video games and nothing else.
This is why you're a terrible human being. You're so afraid that, somehow, this would take away from whatever pitiful achievements you've had in your pitiful life.

Well, your ad hominems will certainly prove your point. Or not.

By the way, for such a superior person, you are a lousy reader. I said there might be many reasons why women aren't at equal numbers in any particular occupation, yet you say "This, to you, is a sign that women inherently don't like video games and nothing else." Either you can't read (or didn't bother to). This is a straw man argument as well. I want evidence that your claim (that women are "underrepresented" in game design because they are prevented from doing so) is correct. Asserting that women aren't in video game design because they are driven out, with your supporting evidence being that women aren't in game design is begging the question.

Heck, there's a tremendous market for you to exploit. Form a company with all the incredibly talented women who are desperate to be game designers, but can't get a job elsewhere. You'll smoke EA and Activision in no time. Heck, why hasn't anyone else thought of it? Oh, wait...

So, we have two logical fallacies and a total lack of reading comprehension. And you think I'm a terrible human being? Physician, heal thyself (and develop an actual argument for a change).

But, actually, with nothing left but name-calling in your bag, I'm sure this is the point where you'll smugly disengage (maybe even with another logical fallacy. Try to be original, though... the normal few are getting boring).
 
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38. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 20:19 Beamer
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:07:
If only the world were so simple! That's why your argument is destined for the dust bin of history. Because life is way more complex than your social policy via greeting card. There are many reasons that certain groups may not be represented at the same rates in certain categories (not the least of which is the actual categories themselves... many problems exist only when the categories are finagled just right). Your argument is that if the numbers aren't exactly equal... then racism (or sexism, or insert-ism-here). That's the least intellectual argument in the history of arguments. So just because you can't fathom a set of conditions where it could happen, it's impossible?

There are many factors that help determine what a person chooses to do with his or her life. Culture is a big one... but not in the way you think. You guys can call me anything you like, because at the end of the day, we both know that all of the screams of -isms are a tactic designed to stifle debate. If your argument held water, you wouldn't need to try and shame people with cries of sexism... you'd be able to objectively prove your point. So caterwaul away... it only makes the obvious more so...

Again, you're a terrible human being unable to see through any eyes other than your own.

I'll again point out that women score better in math and science. And are routinely pushed away from any kind of computer-related job because most men that end up there are extremely aggro against women and push them right out.

It's so odd that you think that "you need to prove your point" is your retort, when there's really an infinite amount of incidents out there where a woman was pushed out of a coding job because the men around her were so damn creepy.

Video games, both as a hobby and as a career, are about 90% men. This, to you, is a sign that women inherently don't like video games and nothing else.
This is why you're a terrible human being. You're so afraid that, somehow, this would take away from whatever pitiful achievements you've had in your pitiful life.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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37. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 20:07 Eirikrautha
 
If only the world were so simple! That's why your argument is destined for the dust bin of history. Because life is way more complex than your social policy via greeting card. There are many reasons that certain groups may not be represented at the same rates in certain categories (not the least of which is the actual categories themselves... many problems exist only when the categories are finagled just right). Your argument is that if the numbers aren't exactly equal... then racism (or sexism, or insert-ism-here). That's the least intellectual argument in the history of arguments. So just because you can't fathom a set of conditions where it could happen, it's impossible?

There are many factors that help determine what a person chooses to do with his or her life. Culture is a big one... but not in the way you think. You guys can call me anything you like, because at the end of the day, we both know that all of the screams of -isms are a tactic designed to stifle debate. If your argument held water, you wouldn't need to try and shame people with cries of sexism... you'd be able to objectively prove your point. So caterwaul away... it only makes the obvious more so...
 
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36. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 19:52 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Red wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 18:10:
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 23:15:
...
I feel bad for you. Well not really, because you're just a faceless being on the internet. But if I did have the power of empathy, I would empathize. All this hate. Your stance is the sole voice of reason and intelligence in this thread. Everyone else is trapped in a world of small mindedness, unable to fathom that you cannot overcome stereotypes by promoting stereotypes. You're not alone. But very few people are so enlightened.

Look it's pretty simple:

A meritocracy is a system in which people's social status, economic standing, and, in some cases, political power is determined by their individual talent and willingness to apply it. IF a system is meritocratic AND certain groups of people are persistently underrepresented in the higher socioeconomic and professional tiers THEN one of two conditions must obtain: either certain groups have less innate talent -- an idea which could be true but by definition would be sexist and racist -- OR the system isn't actually meritocratic.

Or, perhaps one could say it's cultural. It's not that women are inherently inferior at the skills associated with programming and thus only a handful are competent to do the job, one could argue, it's that our culture teaches women not to pursue this profession, and teaches men not to accept them in it. If we want more people to live up to their talents and flourish, wouldn't it make sense to try to influence the culture in another direction? Wouldn't then we want to find ways to recruit more women into the programming profession, so that people can see that women are just as capable of succeeding, and thus no talented girl who could become an excellent programmer ever says to herself "computer programming? But that's only something boys do!"?

This comment was edited on Mar 29, 2014, 20:02.
 
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35. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 18:10 Red
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 23:15:
...
I feel bad for you. Well not really, because you're just a faceless being on the internet. But if I did have the power of empathy, I would empathize. All this hate. Your stance is the sole voice of reason and intelligence in this thread. Everyone else is trapped in a world of small mindedness, unable to fathom that you cannot overcome stereotypes by promoting stereotypes. You're not alone. But very few people are so enlightened.
 
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34. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 12:56 Beamer
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 11:53:
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 11:34:
Hahaha! I work in a female-dominated industry, and we get along just fine. Probably because they are very good at what they do, and I am good at my job. Our mutual respect is genuine, based on ability, and not preferential hiring. Try it sometime...

Dude, you stated that prejudice is a non-factor and then... made a bunch of racist and sexist comments, probably without even realizing it. Women will only get interested in computing when it has applications relevant to them? Gee, I guess women must be incapable of finding computer science inherently interesting! When we look at how white and Asian men dominate the field of computing, we "shouldn't expect all groups to have equal ability"? That sounds a lot like "blacks, Hispanics, and women just aren't as talented at programming as white and Asian men so we shouldn't expect that many of them to work in the tech field." When men face rejection they work to better themselves, while women just whine and make themselves out as victims? I kinda think that speaks for itself, but consider this: isn't working to change perceptions and institutions which keep you from achieveing your full potential also "working to better yourself"?

That you spout prejudicial garbage without even realizing it, cloaking it in support of "meritocracy", is telling. You are proof positive that people can have vastly reduced expectations for certain groups in certain fields without even realizing that they are prejudiced. In other words, you kind of made my argument for me.

But hey, at least you have some black, err, I mean female friends so you can't possible be sexist!

And that's why he's an awful human being.
 
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33. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 11:53 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 11:34:
Hahaha! I work in a female-dominated industry, and we get along just fine. Probably because they are very good at what they do, and I am good at my job. Our mutual respect is genuine, based on ability, and not preferential hiring. Try it sometime...

Dude, you stated that prejudice is a non-factor and then... made a bunch of racist and sexist comments, probably without even realizing it. Women will only get interested in computing when it has applications relevant to them? Gee, I guess women must be incapable of finding computer science inherently interesting! When we look at how white and Asian men dominate the field of computing, we "shouldn't expect all groups to have equal ability"? That sounds a lot like "blacks, Hispanics, and women just aren't as talented at programming as white and Asian men so we shouldn't expect that many of them to work in the tech field." When men face rejection they work to better themselves, while women just whine and make themselves out as victims? I kinda think that speaks for itself, but consider this: isn't working to change perceptions and institutions which keep you from achieveing your full potential also "working to better yourself"?

That you spout prejudicial garbage without even realizing it, cloaking it in support of "meritocracy", is telling. You are proof positive that people can have vastly reduced expectations for certain groups in certain fields without even realizing that they are prejudiced. In other words, you kind of made my argument for me.

But hey, at least you have some black, err, I mean female friends so you can't possible be sexist!
 
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32. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 11:34 Eirikrautha
 
Hahaha! I work in a female-dominated industry, and we get along just fine. Probably because they are very good at what they do, and I am good at my job. Our mutual respect is genuine, based on ability, and not preferential hiring. Try it sometime...  
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31. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 11:32 Eirikrautha
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 23:24:
What an awful human being.
Agreed. To cripple people under the guise of compassion, then pat yourself on the back for being so "enlightened." It really does make you a pretty disgusting person...
 
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30. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 01:10 BobBob
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 20:33:
For most of human history, people judged and segregated others based on their "tribe" (usually based on familial relationships or political alliances). This became so prominent that in many parts of the world, including the West, a person's tribe or status determined their lot in life.

Then, growing out of Europe and expanding both West and East, the novel idea arose that "tribe" should not determine status, privilege or place in society. That a "natural" aristocracy, based on talent, initiative, and drive, should be valued more than the hereditary aristocracy.

So now, having benefited front centuries of progress because of this idea, the very societies that grew because of the value placed on individual excellence have worked their hardest to once again separate people into various competing "tribes"...

Can we find the most talented young developers to support? Does it have to be the (insert flavor of the month) -hyphen- developer? Why isn't excellence enough?

Too much thinking will make you bitter. Free your mind from intelligence.
 
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29. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 28, 2014, 23:53 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 23:24:
What an awful human being.

Agreed. I thought about responding, but it's clear it's a waste of time. Why aren't there more women programmers? Many reasons, but partly, because they know they'd have to work with people like Eirikrautha.
 
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28. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 28, 2014, 23:24 Beamer
 
What an awful human being.  
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27. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 28, 2014, 23:15 Eirikrautha
 
Your rationale is just as "mythical" as you accuse meritocracy of being. When the New York Times had to explain to its readers why they had young reporters completely fabricating articles, part of the reason given by the NYT itself was that the program they created to encourage diversity in their reporters actually inhibited their ability to judge the merits of those reporters' work. The folks in charge were unwilling to hold those reporters to the same standards, lest they be accused of racism themselves.

The fact is that various subgroups of human beings are NOT equally represented in all endeavors. Culture, sex, and individual traits and desires all affect the number of people who seek different careers. It's actually both delusional and stupid to think that there should be equal numbers of certain subgroups in every profession.

So your argument that all of these incredibly talented folks are being prevented from succeeding by stereotypes is nonsense. It is a circular argument, based on what you wish were true. While some individual cases certainly do happen, there is not some massive pool of female programming talent that would be revolutionizing the industry if only the white males would let them. Increased numbers of female programmers will occur organically when programming becomes more involved in those things that interest women. Or it won't. But no secret cabal of men can or could change either outcome.

The real problem is the crutch that all this conspiratorial whining creates. Maybe you didn't get hired because you're a mediocre programmer, and not because you're a woman? A man would have to face his shortcomings and improve himself. A woman (or any other group that plays the "victim card", including some men), has an excuse not to. It hurts them more than it helps...
 
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26. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 28, 2014, 21:51 jimnms
 
Task wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 13:17:
that gave me many chuckles, thank you. some people think its stupid, but i sometimes create 'female' characters in RPGs

Why do people think that's stupid? It's called role playing for a reason. I usually play RPGs a second time as a female character. In the better RPGs, some NPCs will react different to female characters, often opening up different ways to complete quests. I don't care much for 3rd person games, but if I do play one and I have a choice (Saint's Row for example), I go for a female character. If I have to stare at a character's ass while playing, I'd much rather stare at a nice one.
 
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25. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 28, 2014, 21:32 Fine Young Capitalist
 
We take 0.2% more the winner and pay for everything.

And yes if you win you don't have to use the Colombian production company. You can totally take the idea and do it on your own. The concept artist work from past games and projects are here.

http://www.thefineyoungcapitalists.com/ConceptArt

 
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