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Morning Consolidation

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32. TVs Mar 9, 2014, 19:14 Ant
 
I still have and use my Sharp 19.5" Sharp CRT TV from January 1996.  
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31. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 18:48 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 18:47:
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 16:05:

I kind of have the feeling that if enough people were to invest in 4K TVs over the next 3 years or so this would be a 5 year console generation at best. Remember the only real reason the last generation lasted so long is because Microsoft and Sony spent buttloads (I believe that's the technical term) of money on developing them and really wanted the generation to be as long as possible to maximize their returns. This time around they both went the route of basically building a midrange PC with a few specialized parts. It hasn't cost them anywhere near as much and both are breaking even on the hardware right out of the gate.

So I wouldn't be at all shocked to see these consoles both get deep price cuts over the next 3 years or so (it is commodity hardware, after all) and then start hearing inklings of a new generation by four years out that would basically be just an upgraded PC, thereby giving backwards compatibility with this gen and providing newer games for all the 4K TVs. It's just going to depend on consumer demand.

2 things about 4K

1. From what I've read recently, TV sales are tapering off. People have gotten rid of their old CRT boxes and replaced them with nice LCDs or plasmas. Jumping from a crappy CRT to a much larger & flatter LCD is a huge jump and people can justify it. Going from one flat panel to another is much less so.

2. You need to be sitting really close to a 4K TV to get the benefit. I think in the store, people won't be able to differentiate the benefit enough to justify the price.

3. 4K prices will remain high for the next 5 years.

Okay, 3 things.

Yup, 4K is an easier sell than 3D in stores, because you're up close in stores, but in person it's meaningless for TVs. No one sits that close.
 
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30. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 18:47 jdreyer
 
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 16:05:

I kind of have the feeling that if enough people were to invest in 4K TVs over the next 3 years or so this would be a 5 year console generation at best. Remember the only real reason the last generation lasted so long is because Microsoft and Sony spent buttloads (I believe that's the technical term) of money on developing them and really wanted the generation to be as long as possible to maximize their returns. This time around they both went the route of basically building a midrange PC with a few specialized parts. It hasn't cost them anywhere near as much and both are breaking even on the hardware right out of the gate.

So I wouldn't be at all shocked to see these consoles both get deep price cuts over the next 3 years or so (it is commodity hardware, after all) and then start hearing inklings of a new generation by four years out that would basically be just an upgraded PC, thereby giving backwards compatibility with this gen and providing newer games for all the 4K TVs. It's just going to depend on consumer demand.

2 things about 4K

1. From what I've read recently, TV sales are tapering off. People have gotten rid of their old CRT boxes and replaced them with nice LCDs or plasmas. Jumping from a crappy CRT to a much larger & flatter LCD is a huge jump and people can justify it. Going from one flat panel to another is much less so.

2. You need to be sitting really close to a 4K TV to get the benefit. I think in the store, people won't be able to differentiate the benefit enough to justify the price.

3. 4K prices will remain high for the next 5 years.

Okay, 3 things.
 
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29. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 18:43 HorrorScope
 
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 16:05:
So I wouldn't be at all shocked to see these consoles both get deep price cuts over the next 3 years or so (it is commodity hardware, after all) and then start hearing inklings of a new generation by four years out that would basically be just an upgraded PC, thereby giving backwards compatibility with this gen and providing newer games for all the 4K TVs. It's just going to depend on consumer demand.

Would we think that the consoles moving forward will be compatible? So as you say, very little R&D, just put in the best you can for $400, same everything in terms of O/S. MS should consider doing that for this Christmas.
 
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28. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 16:05 Panickd
 
HorrorScope wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:54:
HorrorScope wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:47:
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:01:
InBlack wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:02:

Im not sure most would know the difference unless someone pointed it out to them. For that matter Im not sure most PS4 owners would know the difference either.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all. Most folks have a problem telling 720p from 1080p on normal size televisions at living room distances, and that's a huge difference. But 180 extra lines of resolution? You'd legitimately need to have your nose against the screen to spot that.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go back to gaming at "4K" on my PC.

You are right, from a couch viewing distance 720P on a 42" screen is fine for many things. But that isn't ultimately the point that is being said here. It's that this is the console for the next 7 years and this is already struggling with things that we would have just thought was a no-brainer given.

For the master race, they did the one thing right they had to 8 gig's o ram, that was the part that affects me.

I kind of have the feeling that if enough people were to invest in 4K TVs over the next 3 years or so this would be a 5 year console generation at best. Remember the only real reason the last generation lasted so long is because Microsoft and Sony spent buttloads (I believe that's the technical term) of money on developing them and really wanted the generation to be as long as possible to maximize their returns. This time around they both went the route of basically building a midrange PC with a few specialized parts. It hasn't cost them anywhere near as much and both are breaking even on the hardware right out of the gate.

So I wouldn't be at all shocked to see these consoles both get deep price cuts over the next 3 years or so (it is commodity hardware, after all) and then start hearing inklings of a new generation by four years out that would basically be just an upgraded PC, thereby giving backwards compatibility with this gen and providing newer games for all the 4K TVs. It's just going to depend on consumer demand.
 
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27. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 15:30 avianflu
 
Wake me up when either of them can do an action game at stable 60 fps.  
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26. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 14:05 Yosemite Sam
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 13:56:
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:26:
Verno wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:06:
Bundy wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:19:
Games generally look better going forward through a consoles lifespan as things get optimized, for some reason a lot of people think the xb1 is gonna do the opposite.

Games also run up against resource limitations more as devs leverage the hardware which results in tradeoffs like what I already mentioned.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all

Depends on the game really and what else was scaled down, its way too subjective to generalize. I can certainly tell the difference between AC4 on my PS4 and my buddys Xbox One. People who only have one console probably don't care either way but then again the internet is filled with comparisons so who knows *shrug*.

If you have an XBox One and a PS4 how often are you out there buying the same game for them though? Do the extra lines of resolution impact your enjoyment of the game in any way? If you owned an XBone and never saw the PS4 version of a game would you feel cheated in any way?

I have a PC capable of playing pretty much anything at some pretty insane resolutions. I also own a PS3. I own a small number of games on both platforms thanks to Steam sales and, as you might expect, the PC beats the PS3 in graphical fidelity hands down. But when I'm playing those games on the PS3 I'm not sitting around going, "Screw this 720p bullshit! 4K is sooooo much better! It makes the game soooo much more enjoyable!"

Absent the ability to directly compare two versions, it's not even an issue. That was my point.

I don;t know, I LOVE Uncharted, but every time I have played I have said to myself "Fuck, I wish this was on the PC so the textures weren't so damn grainy." Yes, graphical fidelity can impact your enjoyment.

I kind of agree, sorta, in a way. I've been distracted by jaggies on my PS3 and wished it was a little more crisp looking... but once I get 'into' the game, I typically no longer notice or care.
 
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25. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 13:56 Agent.X7
 
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:26:
Verno wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:06:
Bundy wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:19:
Games generally look better going forward through a consoles lifespan as things get optimized, for some reason a lot of people think the xb1 is gonna do the opposite.

Games also run up against resource limitations more as devs leverage the hardware which results in tradeoffs like what I already mentioned.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all

Depends on the game really and what else was scaled down, its way too subjective to generalize. I can certainly tell the difference between AC4 on my PS4 and my buddys Xbox One. People who only have one console probably don't care either way but then again the internet is filled with comparisons so who knows *shrug*.

If you have an XBox One and a PS4 how often are you out there buying the same game for them though? Do the extra lines of resolution impact your enjoyment of the game in any way? If you owned an XBone and never saw the PS4 version of a game would you feel cheated in any way?

I have a PC capable of playing pretty much anything at some pretty insane resolutions. I also own a PS3. I own a small number of games on both platforms thanks to Steam sales and, as you might expect, the PC beats the PS3 in graphical fidelity hands down. But when I'm playing those games on the PS3 I'm not sitting around going, "Screw this 720p bullshit! 4K is sooooo much better! It makes the game soooo much more enjoyable!"

Absent the ability to directly compare two versions, it's not even an issue. That was my point.

I don;t know, I LOVE Uncharted, but every time I have played I have said to myself "Fuck, I wish this was on the PC so the textures weren't so damn grainy." Yes, graphical fidelity can impact your enjoyment.
 
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24. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 13:39 Verno
 
HorrorScope wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:58:
You are right, from a couch viewing distance 720P on a 42" screen is fine for many things. But that isn't ultimately the point that is being said here. It's that this is the console for the next 7 years and this is already struggling with things that we would have just thought was a no-brainer given.

Yep exactly. Many games last gen looked better but ran worse as things wore on which I think is the concern many of us are talking about and that's without going into other port differences and design tradeoffs that were made. We'll have a better idea where things are at in a year once dev chain stuff is more optimized.
 
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23. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:58 Bundy
 
HorrorScope wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:47:
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:01:
InBlack wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:02:

Im not sure most would know the difference unless someone pointed it out to them. For that matter Im not sure most PS4 owners would know the difference either.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all. Most folks have a problem telling 720p from 1080p on normal size televisions at living room distances, and that's a huge difference. But 180 extra lines of resolution? You'd legitimately need to have your nose against the screen to spot that.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go back to gaming at "4K" on my PC.

You are right, from a couch viewing distance 720P on a 42" screen is fine for many things. But that isn't ultimately the point that is being said here. It's that this is the console for the next 7 years and this is already struggling with things that we would have just thought was a no-brainer given.

I dont think xb1 owners should be overly concerned. The ps4 games will always have an edge, but its not like xb1 games are gonna look worse and worse every year. Things always go upward throughout a consoles life.
 
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22. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:54 HorrorScope
 
HorrorScope wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:47:
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:01:
InBlack wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:02:

Im not sure most would know the difference unless someone pointed it out to them. For that matter Im not sure most PS4 owners would know the difference either.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all. Most folks have a problem telling 720p from 1080p on normal size televisions at living room distances, and that's a huge difference. But 180 extra lines of resolution? You'd legitimately need to have your nose against the screen to spot that.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go back to gaming at "4K" on my PC.

You are right, from a couch viewing distance 720P on a 42" screen is fine for many things. But that isn't ultimately the point that is being said here. It's that this is the console for the next 7 years and this is already struggling with things that we would have just thought was a no-brainer given.

For the master race, they did the one thing right they had to 8 gig's o ram, that was the part that affects me.
 
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21. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:47 HorrorScope
 
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:01:
InBlack wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:02:

Im not sure most would know the difference unless someone pointed it out to them. For that matter Im not sure most PS4 owners would know the difference either.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all. Most folks have a problem telling 720p from 1080p on normal size televisions at living room distances, and that's a huge difference. But 180 extra lines of resolution? You'd legitimately need to have your nose against the screen to spot that.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go back to gaming at "4K" on my PC.

You are right, from a couch viewing distance 720P on a 42" screen is fine for many things. But that isn't ultimately the point that is being said here. It's that this is the console for the next 7 years and this is already struggling with things that we would have just thought was a no-brainer given.
 
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20. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:43 HorrorScope
 
Bundy wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 09:36:
The XB1 will always lag a little behind. Surprise to no one at this point. But I think it's time to pour myself a "PC Master Race" cup of coffee and hit dem forums!

I agree.

They should just be thankful their able to bang the power of the cloud to get what they do get.
 
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19. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:37 Verno
 
Panickd wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 12:26:
If you have an XBox One and a PS4 how often are you out there buying the same game for them though? Do the extra lines of resolution impact your enjoyment of the game in any way? But when I'm playing those games on the PS3 I'm not sitting around going, "Screw this 720p bullshit! 4K is sooooo much better! It makes the game soooo much more enjoyable!"

People enjoy visuals so yes, it can impact their enjoyment of the game. I don't think its the sole factor but its certainly something to consider. If you own an Xbox One and a PS4 you probably just buy the version that runs better because DigitalFoundry said so or whatever system your friends play on.

It's not just simple resolution either. I have run into situations where the framerate has chugged, one lacks vsync for some reason, one version is buggier than another, one has AA and the other does not, etc. So I agree that most people aren't going to be sitting there worried about the resolution alone but I think people do pick up on things that bug them.

So I guess I think for some consumers it doesn't matter and for others it matters a great deal. Whether this translates into sales or not is anyones guess but I know I purchased more games on the 360 last gen because it was often the superior platform for third party games and that trend has reversed itself this gen (so far). That's just me though.

This comment was edited on Mar 7, 2014, 12:44.
 
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18. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:26 Panickd
 
Verno wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:06:
Bundy wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 10:19:
Games generally look better going forward through a consoles lifespan as things get optimized, for some reason a lot of people think the xb1 is gonna do the opposite.

Games also run up against resource limitations more as devs leverage the hardware which results in tradeoffs like what I already mentioned.

Unless you had the PS4 version and the XBox One version side by side on some large ass TVs that you were sitting unnaturally close to you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, not at all

Depends on the game really and what else was scaled down, its way too subjective to generalize. I can certainly tell the difference between AC4 on my PS4 and my buddys Xbox One. People who only have one console probably don't care either way but then again the internet is filled with comparisons so who knows *shrug*.

If you have an XBox One and a PS4 how often are you out there buying the same game for them though? Do the extra lines of resolution impact your enjoyment of the game in any way? If you owned an XBone and never saw the PS4 version of a game would you feel cheated in any way?

I have a PC capable of playing pretty much anything at some pretty insane resolutions. I also own a PS3. I own a small number of games on both platforms thanks to Steam sales and, as you might expect, the PC beats the PS3 in graphical fidelity hands down. But when I'm playing those games on the PS3 I'm not sitting around going, "Screw this 720p bullshit! 4K is sooooo much better! It makes the game soooo much more enjoyable!"

Absent the ability to directly compare two versions, it's not even an issue. That was my point.
 
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17. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 12:01 Bundy
 
Verno wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:58:
Creston wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:37:
Reports suggest that the Xbone is really a rather underpowered piece of shit.

They seem to be trying to avoid price cutting by including games now instead. I really don't know what they were thinking with that price tag.

That was a big mistake, they're gonna have to drop it to match the ps4, in addition to adding games, unless they want to keep seeing the ps4 outsell them month after month.
 
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16. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 11:58 Verno
 
Creston wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:37:
Reports suggest that the Xbone is really a rather underpowered piece of shit.

They seem to be trying to avoid price cutting by including games now instead. I don't know what they were thinking with that price tag.
 
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15. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 11:47 Bundy
 
Creston wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:37:
Reports suggest that the Xbone is really a rather underpowered piece of shit. And it can be yours for only $500! Make sure to wave at the GCHQ guys through your Kinect!

I dont wave to anyone, I do fap in front of it though. Give them their moneys worth.
 
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14. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 11:37 Creston
 
Reports suggest that the Xbone is really a rather underpowered piece of shit. And it can be yours for only $500! Make sure to wave at the GCHQ guys through your Kinect!  
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13. Re: Morning Consolidation Mar 7, 2014, 11:18 Bundy
 
Verno wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:14:
Bundy wrote on Mar 7, 2014, 11:08:
That's true, but by and large the end results are the same. The graphic fidelity keeps increasing.

Again, until they hit limitations then tradeoffs are made in other areas which is where the Xbox One will fare worse than the PS4. It simply has less GPU headroom. When they hit this point is anyones guess.

Yup. Sony made better hardware choices than MS this time around. Which is a welcome relief from the direction they were headed. And good for gamers all around.
 
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