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Out of the Blue

Happy Chinese New Year! Yup, it seems like we were only just discussing this around a year ago, but here it is again. Broncos fans will be happy with the omen, as we begin the Year of the Horse, though there's no seahawk or generic bird on the calendar for that to have been an option here (closest for that would be the rooster). So there it is, happy Year of the Horse... though I'm sure I'll still be writing Year of the Snake on my checks for months.

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57 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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57. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 2, 2014, 18:38 PHJF
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 15:27:
PHJF wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 20:32:
Uh, prohibition era?

Being demonized and being illegal aren't the same thing. See weed.

What? Dude, you are really not familiar with prohibition era history, are you? Alcohol was most certainly demonized. That's how they got the government to amend the constitution. They pretty much blamed everything wrong with the country at the time on alcohol. Google some prohibition era posters.

There were myriad reasons for the Volstead Act getting passed, but the zealots proclaiming alcohol to be the source of all society's ills were the (vocal) minority. It never had truly popular support.

When the Eighteenth Amendment was passed I earnestly hoped- with a host of advocates of temperance-that it would be generally supported by public opinion and thus the day be hastened when the value to society of men with minds and bodies free from the undermining effects of alcohol would be generally realized. That this has not been the result, but rather that drinking has generally increased; that the speakeasy has replaced the saloon, not only unit for unit, but probably two-fold if not three-fold; that a vast array of lawbreakers has been recruited and financed on a colossal scale; that many of our best citizens, piqued at what they regarded as an infringement of their private rights, have openly and unabashedly disregarded the Eighteenth Amendment; that as an inevitable result respect for all law has been greatly lessened; that crime has increased to an unprecedented degree-I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe.

John D. Rockefeller
 
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56. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 2, 2014, 10:07 xXBatmanXx
 
The rate of people seeking treatment for drug addiction rose by over 50%. That means less people on drugs and more people seeking help for the addictions they have.


huh? What are you smoking? Addiction treatment rose CAUSE USE/ADDITICTION ROSE! Wow.....
 
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55. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 23:51 Beamer
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 20:51:
Beamer wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:57:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:43:
/deleted - went on a big long spin - no one cares.

Make things legal, let people take whatever they want, but it will take a TON of legislation to deal with the destruction that it causes. No one cares if shit bird drug addict does xyz to themselves, but they disrupt A LOT a long the way and the destruction is a large swath far and wide.....we will pay for it as a whole - the money for the "drug war" will just be money for the "fix me war".....

I don't have the answers. I have great solutions that no one likes. There will be a time when people will say enough is enough.....we will have enough victims that they will be loud one day....until then, turds will be turds and continue to be turds cause jail is not big deal.

The "1%" problem is growing...

It's not worth it.
The libertarian "it should be legal, what, because some people may have an issue it isn't?" argument is an idiotic one. It doesn't actually address why something should be legal, just why it shouldn't be illegal.

And it runs into huge flaws because it's only used for something that individual wants to be legal. You can easily find things illegal that they happily agree shouldn't be legal, without them realizing the logic they're applying is solely personal opinion.

Which is why I laugh at the MJ argument. "Cause it has medical benefits" yea for the .05%, the rest of you just want to get high.

THIS

Parents need to be charged. In every case.

Oh, we're talking MJ?

Well, in that case, I actually do believe that the cost of fighting it is significantly greater than the cost letting it run as free as alcohol would be.

Significantly.

Cocaine? Molly? Keep that shit illegal? Weed? Let that run free. We've spent far too many resources and ruined far too many otherwise-fine lives over this.
 
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54. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 23:48 Agent.X7
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:57:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:43:
/deleted - went on a big long spin - no one cares.

Make things legal, let people take whatever they want, but it will take a TON of legislation to deal with the destruction that it causes. No one cares if shit bird drug addict does xyz to themselves, but they disrupt A LOT a long the way and the destruction is a large swath far and wide.....we will pay for it as a whole - the money for the "drug war" will just be money for the "fix me war".....

I don't have the answers. I have great solutions that no one likes. There will be a time when people will say enough is enough.....we will have enough victims that they will be loud one day....until then, turds will be turds and continue to be turds cause jail is not big deal.

The "1%" problem is growing...

It's not worth it.
The libertarian "it should be legal, what, because some people may have an issue it isn't?" argument is an idiotic one. It doesn't actually address why something should be legal, just why it shouldn't be illegal.

And it runs into huge flaws because it's only used for something that individual wants to be legal. You can easily find things illegal that they happily agree shouldn't be legal, without them realizing the logic they're applying is solely personal opinion.

You're right, it's not worth discussing with someone who is closed off to facts. No matter what facts are portrayed, there is a century of media brainwashing to overcome that some people just can't get over.
 
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53. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 20:51 xXBatmanXx
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:57:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:43:
/deleted - went on a big long spin - no one cares.

Make things legal, let people take whatever they want, but it will take a TON of legislation to deal with the destruction that it causes. No one cares if shit bird drug addict does xyz to themselves, but they disrupt A LOT a long the way and the destruction is a large swath far and wide.....we will pay for it as a whole - the money for the "drug war" will just be money for the "fix me war".....

I don't have the answers. I have great solutions that no one likes. There will be a time when people will say enough is enough.....we will have enough victims that they will be loud one day....until then, turds will be turds and continue to be turds cause jail is not big deal.

The "1%" problem is growing...

It's not worth it.
The libertarian "it should be legal, what, because some people may have an issue it isn't?" argument is an idiotic one. It doesn't actually address why something should be legal, just why it shouldn't be illegal.

And it runs into huge flaws because it's only used for something that individual wants to be legal. You can easily find things illegal that they happily agree shouldn't be legal, without them realizing the logic they're applying is solely personal opinion.

Which is why I laugh at the MJ argument. "Cause it has medical benefits" yea for the .05%, the rest of you just want to get high.

THIS

Parents need to be charged. In every case.

This comment was edited on Feb 1, 2014, 21:37.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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52. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 19:57 Beamer
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 19:43:
/deleted - went on a big long spin - no one cares.

Make things legal, let people take whatever they want, but it will take a TON of legislation to deal with the destruction that it causes. No one cares if shit bird drug addict does xyz to themselves, but they disrupt A LOT a long the way and the destruction is a large swath far and wide.....we will pay for it as a whole - the money for the "drug war" will just be money for the "fix me war".....

I don't have the answers. I have great solutions that no one likes. There will be a time when people will say enough is enough.....we will have enough victims that they will be loud one day....until then, turds will be turds and continue to be turds cause jail is not big deal.

The "1%" problem is growing...

It's not worth it.
The libertarian "it should be legal, what, because some people may have an issue it isn't?" argument is an idiotic one. It doesn't actually address why something should be legal, just why it shouldn't be illegal.

And it runs into huge flaws because it's only used for something that individual wants to be legal. You can easily find things illegal that they happily agree shouldn't be legal, without them realizing the logic they're applying is solely personal opinion.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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51. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 19:43 xXBatmanXx
 
/deleted - went on a big long spin - no one cares.

Make things legal, let people take whatever they want, but it will take a TON of legislation to deal with the destruction that it causes. No one cares if shit bird drug addict does xyz to themselves, but they disrupt A LOT a long the way and the destruction is a large swath far and wide.....we will pay for it as a whole - the money for the "drug war" will just be money for the "fix me war".....

I don't have the answers. I have great solutions that no one likes. There will be a time when people will say enough is enough.....we will have enough victims that they will be loud one day....until then, turds will be turds and continue to be turds cause jail is not big deal.

The "1%" problem is growing...

This comment was edited on Feb 1, 2014, 19:55.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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50. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 18:20 jdreyer
 
I don't mean that we "legalize" drugs in the sense that we can go down to 7-11 and buy cocaine laced M & Ms, for example. Decriminalization is the word I should be using. So they're not for sale generally, but nobody gets arrested for possession. The next step is to make the government the supplier: you get it from a doctor as a prescription. You must attend a treatment program, but that's a small price to pay to get your fix at $10 a month or whatever. Lots of people naturally lose their addiction after a few years, and the treatment accelerates that.

And for those people barely hanging on, if they wanted drugs, they'd be using them already. Drugs are widely available all over this country, despite our current system. Is there potential for abuse with this new system? For sure. Will it have a greater effect than all the crime that goes away when you decriminalize drugs and destroy the market via gov't subsidization? It seems extremely unlikely.

Bats, how many calls do you get a month where drugs are a contributing factor? Thefts, prostitution, robberies, assaults, etc. How many of those would never have happened if not for the drugs? I'm not saying that the way you think is wrong, but think about the possibilities. Watch what Capt Christ had to say.
 
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49. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 17:32 Agent.X7
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 16:19:
Agent.X7 wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 15:31:
Sure. If you let it, almost anything can fuck up your life. But you know whose problem that is? YOURS. Making things illegal doesn't change that, it just makes problems for other people.

The problem is that YOUR problem becomes MY PROBLEM then infringes on my FREEDOMS and LIBERTIES, per definition. I just don't understand the idea of "well just open up everything for everyone" - people can't even handle what is legal, and you want to open up Pandora's box to a gamut of garbage......

But that's the Chicken Little argument people use for EVERYTHING. OMG, if people are allowed to carry guns there will be blood running in the streets! Hasn't happened. OMG, if the assault weapon ban runs out murders will skyrocket! Murder rates actually dropped. OMG, if we legalize drugs EVRERYONE will use them and the country will go to hell. None of the countries that have decriminalized drugs have shown this to be true. There's a slight increase during the first couple of months, and then a sharp drop in usage.

HIV, street crimes, drug related deaths and usage all dropped by almost half when Portugal decriminalized drugs. The rate of people seeking treatment for drug addiction rose by over 50%. That means less people on drugs and more people seeking help for the addictions they have.

I don't understand the "people can't even handle what is legal" argument. Sure, people the police deal with. Not everyone. Not even most people. I have many guns, I have never killed or shot anybody. I drink alcohol, I've never driven drunk or become an alcoholic. (Which I know about first hand since my father has been one since before I was born.) You cannot punish the many for the problems of the few.

And yes, when people with problems effect other people, then they are infringing on other peoples' rights. And then YOU, as an officer of the law, arrest them for their stupidity. Same way it works now. Some crazy idiot runs down the street naked waving a shotgun they get arrested; Drunk, stoned, high on crack, it's the same thing. Except maybe if drugs were legal we wouldn't let that asshole back on the streets so that we can find his dealer, then use the dealer to find his source, etc. And maybe since the prison population would have a sharp decline, we could stop letting murders and rapists out to jail non-violent offenders.

This comment was edited on Feb 1, 2014, 17:40.
 
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48. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 16:19 xXBatmanXx
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Feb 1, 2014, 15:31:
Sure. If you let it, almost anything can fuck up your life. But you know whose problem that is? YOURS. Making things illegal doesn't change that, it just makes problems for other people.

The problem is that YOUR problem becomes MY PROBLEM then infringes on my FREEDOMS and LIBERTIES, per definition. I just don't understand the idea of "well just open up everything for everyone" - people can't even handle what is legal, and you want to open up Pandora's box to a gamut of garbage......

This comment was edited on Feb 1, 2014, 16:28.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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47. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 15:31 Agent.X7
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 21:40:
Agent.X7 wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 15:49:
Cutter wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 15:24:
Hahaha, never gets old, Blue. Love it! I should order some checks just so I can do that in stores.

All natch drugs like weed, shrooms, peyote, et al. should be legal and everyone knows it. And while I agree with the hard shit like coke and smack being illegal - except for medical uses - I don't think they should be prison offenses either.



Coca leaves are actually really good for a variety of things. Cocaine is a concentrated extract which can be, and is, used in minor surgeries. There's really no reason for it to be illegal other than the objection to drug use recreationally.

Coke has fucked up - and continues to do so - a lot of peoples lives. Not as bad as horse, but still up there. I've know many people it's been a major problem for. I went through a heavy coke phase back in the early 90s. Just glad I got through it relatively unscathed. What a waste of money.

Sure. If you let it, almost anything can fuck up your life. But you know whose problem that is? YOURS. Making things illegal doesn't change that, it just makes problems for other people.
 
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46. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 15:27 Agent.X7
 
PHJF wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 20:32:
Uh, prohibition era?

Being demonized and being illegal aren't the same thing. See weed.

What? Dude, you are really not familiar with prohibition era history, are you? Alcohol was most certainly demonized. That's how they got the government to amend the constitution. They pretty much blamed everything wrong with the country at the time on alcohol. Google some prohibition era posters.
 
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45. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 11:31 El Pit
 
Someone in my family almost completely ruined his life because of the legal drug aloohol. Lost his job, his wife kicked him out, his two kids even started hating him, and when he was down on his knees with nothing left, he stopped. Drugs ruin your lives, and it doesn't matter whether it is a legal or illegal drug. In the end, it depends on the choices people make: take drugs to escape your life for a short time at a very high price, or don't. Laws won't keep people back from taking stuff, only a life worth living will.  
Consoles? I owned two: a Pong clone and an Atari 2600. And that's it.
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44. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 1, 2014, 01:08 xXBatmanXx
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 22:44:
@ Bats.

I hear you. We have two bad choices:

1. Make them illegal and deal with all the consequences of illegality: empowered and enriched organized crime, increased crime rate across the board to support drug habits, poor quality drugs that effect users' health, etc. This is our current situation.

2. Make them legal, or decriminalize them and deal with the possibility of increased usage. This is our current situation with alcohol, for example.

We've been doing 1. above for 40 years, to no effect. I feel it's time to try something new. A few more articles:

Retired police Capt. Peter Christ argues in favor of legalization.

Portugal decriminalized all drugs 12 years ago and replaced it with a system to treat addicts, similar to my Liverpool example earlier. Drug abuse in Portugal has fallen by half in that period.

And I agree that meth is nasty, nasty shit that destroys your brain. But the reason people turn to meth is that it's easy to make locally, unlike cocaine and heroin. Still I feel decriminalizing it and getting these people into a treatment program is a better use of the money than what we're doing currently. The addict is going to take the meth either way.

I see people barley hanging on with a sober life everyday - I can't imagine throwing drugs on top of it.....
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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43. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 31, 2014, 22:44 jdreyer
 
@ Bats.

I hear you. We have two bad choices:

1. Make them illegal and deal with all the consequences of illegality: empowered and enriched organized crime, increased crime rate across the board to support drug habits, poor quality drugs that effect users' health, etc. This is our current situation.

2. Make them legal, or decriminalize them and deal with the possibility of increased usage. This is our current situation with alcohol, for example.

We've been doing 1. above for 40 years, to no effect. I feel it's time to try something new. A few more articles:

Retired police Capt. Peter Christ argues in favor of legalization.

Portugal decriminalized all drugs 12 years ago and replaced it with a system to treat addicts, similar to my Liverpool example earlier. Drug abuse in Portugal has fallen by half in that period.

And I agree that meth is nasty, nasty shit that destroys your brain. But the reason people turn to meth is that it's easy to make locally, unlike cocaine and heroin. Still I feel decriminalizing it and getting these people into a treatment program is a better use of the money than what we're doing currently. The addict is going to take the meth either way.
 
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42. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 31, 2014, 21:40 Cutter
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 15:49:
Cutter wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 15:24:
Hahaha, never gets old, Blue. Love it! I should order some checks just so I can do that in stores.

All natch drugs like weed, shrooms, peyote, et al. should be legal and everyone knows it. And while I agree with the hard shit like coke and smack being illegal - except for medical uses - I don't think they should be prison offenses either.



Coca leaves are actually really good for a variety of things. Cocaine is a concentrated extract which can be, and is, used in minor surgeries. There's really no reason for it to be illegal other than the objection to drug use recreationally.

Coke has fucked up - and continues to do so - a lot of peoples lives. Not as bad as horse, but still up there. I've know many people it's been a major problem for. I went through a heavy coke phase back in the early 90s. Just glad I got through it relatively unscathed. What a waste of money.
 
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41. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 31, 2014, 21:22 jdreyer
 
Creston wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 16:26:
jdreyer wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 15:42:
It basically destroyed the illicit drug market in that city b/c no one could compete with the gov't on price.

And you think that all the bad guys are just going to shrug and be like "Well, shit, guess I better go get a real job then?"

Actually, yeah. Illegal drugs are such a huge part of the income for organized crime in any given city. If you cut the legs out from under that, it's not like they can triple their bank robbery or gambling operations to make up the loss.
 
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40. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 31, 2014, 20:32 PHJF
 
Uh, prohibition era?

Being demonized and being illegal aren't the same thing. See weed.
 
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39. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 31, 2014, 17:14 xXBatmanXx
 
Creston wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 16:29:
Agent.X7 wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 14:20:
I simply believe in freedom and personal responsibility.

There is no such thing as personal responsibility in the US. It's always someone else's fault.

If we instilled an actual idea of personal responsibility in this country, we could legalize every hard drug ever invented for all I care. As long as the users then understand that they don't get to go to hospitals on my dime.

*ding.

Need to see if I can find data on blood dialysis patients. See what the increase is over the last 20 years.....

I actually like that States are doing it on a State level, the way laws were supposed to be done. I just hope Obama keeps his....ah crap....he just talked about it didn't he. What an idiot.

State issues need to stay at State level. Glad it is in those States, flock to those areas, let them pay the price. I don't want to be around it, so I won't move to those States. Problem solved.
 
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38. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 31, 2014, 17:01 Mashiki Amiketo
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 15:55:
Shit is broken guys. Badly. I took some time off from work cause my back went out, and for the first time in my life I felt I had no other choice (other than doing physical therapy daily and chiro daily)than to take the narcotics route. It took me (someone who isn't a hibitual ANYTHING and I even hate taking an advil as well) all of 2 days to realize why people abuse the stuff. I went from not walking to walking in 48 hours. I quit the pills after 4 days and increased my physical therapy.
Of course it's broken badly hell in Canada, you'll be hard to find anyone below the rank of Staff Sgt., who will tell you otherwise. And they'll all echo that at this point it'll be easier to legalize, tax, and deal with the social fallout than continuing with what we're doing. Because the crime element has become so bad, so pervasive, and so screwed up that resources could be used in other places but there's no warm bodies for it. In Canada our two biggest crimes are: Drug related, and fraud. The first gets the attention, the second only gets attention if the fraud is over $250k.
 
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