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Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released

EA's Battlelog announces the delayed "Mantle" renderer is now available for the Windows edition of Battlefield 4 for owners of AMD graphics cards, though for some reason this comes in advance of the new AMD beta drivers to enable support of the new API (when they're released they should show up on this page). They offer benchmarks to show the performance improvements seen running the military shooter sequel under Mantle, and the following explanation:

Mantle is a new low-level graphics API that we’ve been working very closely with AMD on over the last 2 years and it is a major change & improvement to how we are able to program & use modern GPUs in order to get the most out of them.

Battlefield 4 on PC is already quite heavily optimized using DirectX 11 and DirectX 11.1, but with Mantle we are able to go even further: we’ve significantly reduced CPU cost in our rendering, efficiently parallelized it over multiple CPU cores and reduced overhead in many areas.

The biggest performance gains can be seen when the game is bottlenecked by the CPU which can be quite common even on high-end machines and this was main goal to improve on with Mantle. We’ve also been able to streamline and optimize some of the GPU workload. The end result is that game performance is improved in virtually all scenarios in Battlefield 4 on both Windows 7 and Windows 8 when running with Mantle!

This update is the first release of our new Mantle renderer, and we will continue to provide more tuning for different types of configurations in future updates. Still, we are really happy with the performance improvements that we are seeing with this update and we believe you will be as well.

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75 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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55. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 17:05 Turglar
 
LOL yeah I'm sure Sony and MS are gonna bribe devs to not support mantle on PC... retard.  
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54. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 16:28 CJ_Parker
 
ChaosEngine wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 16:19:
To the people who say NVidia can safely ignore Mantle, I think you're missing out on two important factors:

1. AMD chips are in both the XBone and PS4, so both of these will inherently support Mantle. As such it makes sense for devs to support it. If you were a AAA publisher and could get any advantage on both consoles and AMD pc users, why wouldn't you? That's got to be well over 75% of your market share right there.

2. DICE have implemented Mantle in Frostbite and EA have already mandated that all their studios are to use Frostbite.

Given those two together, it means that one of the largest publishers in the business is backing a technology that can be applied to the majority of it's customers. From a business perspective, I can't see any devs backing an NVidia proprietary solution. The only ones who could possibly pull it off are Valve (who are very cosy with NVidia).

Regardless of the technical merits of Mantle, it makes sense from a business perspective, and business decisions trump technical concerns. Always.

Dude, one more time: EA has purportedly received US$ 8 million from AMD for implementing Mantle support. They did not do this because they thought it would be cool to do or because they care about gamers. They did this for the $$$.

We all know how much the big publishers care for and love their PC ports, right? What makes you think that anyone -without being handed similar bribes- will voluntarily support Mantle? That won't happen. What might happen is that MS and Sony will specifically start bribing devs to NOT support Mantle on the PC version as they already do when it comes to keeping the quality of PC ports on the lower end of the spectrum.

Mantle is going to be a total niche that will only be supported by games where AMD coughed up a bribe (like BF4) or by indie/KS developers who want to support Mantle to attract some extra attention to their games.
 
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53. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 16:27 DangerDog
 
Frags4Fun wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 15:43:
DangerDog wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 15:25:
Newsflash, DICE broke more shit than they fixed with this "patch".

I know, shocking right?

Wonderful. I was hoping to play a little tonight. Figures.

Some of it isn't game breaking some of it is, spawning on your squadmate in a tank will crash your game apparently.
 
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52. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 16:26 jacobvandy
 
JSP wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 14:51:
In the same articles

Techreport
He was quick to add, however, that such an increase is a drop in the bucket compared to the total development cost of the entire game for all platforms, which might add up to something like $50 million.

Katsman believes Mantle's performance improvements make its implementation worthwhile even if only a fraction of users benefit. As he pointed out, developers already spend time writing support for features like Eyefinity and HD3D into their games, and those features have even smaller user bases

Fully optimizing an existing engine for Mantle seems to involve breaking and rewriting some chunks of that engine to take advantage of the new development model. But here again, Katsman believes the performance improvements make the effort worthwhile.

HardOCP article
As always, these benchmarks in no way represent real-world gameplay. They are all run at very low resolutions to try our best to remove the video card as a bottleneck. I will not hesitate to say that anyone spouting these types of framerate measurements as a true measuring tool in today’s climate is not servicing your needs or telling you the real truth.

Mmmhmm, now let's hear from developers who AREN'T being paid by AMD to implement it. And you're trying to put words in HardOCP's mouth by taking that out of context -- it doesn't change the results of the tests. That's how CPU tests are done, by minimizing the graphics-related variables as much as possible. AMD CPUs are simply slower than Intel's, it's a fact. Not just in gaming, but all applications; at best they come within spitting distance at video conversion, but everything else is no contest.

AMD themselves know and publicly state that their intent is not to be competing with Intel on the high end of desktop processors, because they simply cannot. They would bankrupt themselves in trying right now. But I guess since that part of the article (basically the entire Conclusion) doesn't serve you and your frail argument, you just ignore it...
 
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51. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 16:22 Draugr
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 13:44:
Anyone who believes that Mantle will be supported by more than a handful of games is delusional.

Except for all of EA's games that use frostbite 3, it's the engine that has had mantle support into it, not just BF4. That alone will be more than a handful.

The new thief, Star citizen, Star control (If that engine that was shown off a few weeks ago is in fact the star control engine.)

It's clearly getting some attention, whether that momentum keeps up I suppose remains to be seen, I don't think it's DOA by any means though, and at very least AMD users will be able to benefit from it for some time, even if it does dwindle away.
 
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50. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 16:19 ChaosEngine
 
To the people who say NVidia can safely ignore Mantle, I think you're missing out on two important factors:

1. AMD chips are in both the XBone and PS4, so both of these will inherently support Mantle. As such it makes sense for devs to support it. If you were a AAA publisher and could get any advantage on both consoles and AMD pc users, why wouldn't you? That's got to be well over 75% of your market share right there.

2. DICE have implemented Mantle in Frostbite and EA have already mandated that all their studios are to use Frostbite.

Given those two together, it means that one of the largest publishers in the business is backing a technology that can be applied to the majority of it's customers. From a business perspective, I can't see any devs backing an NVidia proprietary solution. The only ones who could possibly pull it off are Valve (who are very cosy with NVidia).

Regardless of the technical merits of Mantle, it makes sense from a business perspective, and business decisions trump technical concerns. Always.
 
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49. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 16:08 harlock
 
DangerDog wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 15:25:
Newsflash, DICE broke more shit than they fixed with this "patch".

I know, shocking right?

that is a newsflash
 
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48. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 15:43 Frags4Fun
 
DangerDog wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 15:25:
Newsflash, DICE broke more shit than they fixed with this "patch".

I know, shocking right?

Wonderful. I was hoping to play a little tonight. Figures.
 
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47. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 15:25 DangerDog
 
Newsflash, DICE broke more shit than they fixed with this "patch".

I know, shocking right?
 
Avatar 6174
 
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46. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 15:24 Panickd
 
Malfrex wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 15:00:
Yes, AMD currently has an advantage over nVidia but that is because until Mantle was released nVidia didn't have any chance to figure out how to implement it in their drivers. That head start is what AMD is planning to ride out, just like when the x86_64 instruction set came out and blew Intel out of the water.

This would be true if AMD hadn't published the Mantle API before they ever implemented it, which they did. They also held very public talks with various developers and encouraged them to share information about and lobby for Mantle. Nvidia has had every chance to be right at the starting line on this, just like they had the chance to be there at the beginning of OpenCL but couldn't be bothered because they were busy making their own proprietary version of it. If Mantle proves to be worth anything I expect they'll minimally support it and make their own proprietary version that they spend all their time optimizing to make it better.

And as for the x86_64 instruction set and Intel, AMD gave Intel every chance to implement their 64 bit instruction set early on (they have a cross-licensing agreement, after all) and Intel was too arrogant to accept that anything worthwhile could come from some other CPU maker so they wasted a lot of R&D money and engineering time coming up with their own 64 bit instruction set (after claiming that 64 bit was overblown and unnecessary for about two years) which no one used for anything. And even when they did implement x86_64 they couldn't stomach calling it the same thing AMD did so they rebranded it even though they made zero changes to their implementation!

Intel should buy Nvidia or vice versa. Their shared corporate narcissism would be a wonder to see.
 
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45. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 15:00 Malfrex
 
I get the feeling people have a complete misunderstanding of how Mantle is supposed to work. Effectively it is supposed to reduce CPU calls to reduce the GPUs wait times, allowing the GPU to be more effective.

It doesn't care if the CPU is AMD or Intel - if the process can be offloaded from the CPU it will grant some form of benefit to the system, hence why it seems to be a greater benefit for an APU than for an i7 or the like since they inherently have less processing headroom. It grants a greater benefit for Crossfire setups as they perform a decent amount of communication through the CPU, which can be offloaded through Mantle.

nVidia cards CAN support Mantle, they just need to code their drivers to support it. This is easily visible by the fact BF4 has been updated to support Mantle but it requires the driver support to be able to enable it.

Yes, AMD currently has an advantage over nVidia but that is because until Mantle was released nVidia didn't have any chance to figure out how to implement it in their drivers. That head start is what AMD is planning to ride out, just like when the x86_64 instruction set came out and blew Intel out of the water.
 
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44. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 14:51 JSP
 
In the same articles

Techreport
He was quick to add, however, that such an increase is a drop in the bucket compared to the total development cost of the entire game for all platforms, which might add up to something like $50 million.

Katsman believes Mantle's performance improvements make its implementation worthwhile even if only a fraction of users benefit. As he pointed out, developers already spend time writing support for features like Eyefinity and HD3D into their games, and those features have even smaller user bases

Fully optimizing an existing engine for Mantle seems to involve breaking and rewriting some chunks of that engine to take advantage of the new development model. But here again, Katsman believes the performance improvements make the effort worthwhile.

HardOCP article
As always, these benchmarks in no way represent real-world gameplay. They are all run at very low resolutions to try our best to remove the video card as a bottleneck. I will not hesitate to say that anyone spouting these types of framerate measurements as a true measuring tool in today’s climate is not servicing your needs or telling you the real truth.
 
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43. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 14:24 UHD
 
JSP wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 14:10:
I'd like to know where you come up with adding 10% to the budget or that AMD CPUs are any demonstrably worse than Intel in gaming. Spreading FUD like one has swine diarrhea syndrome out of the ass seems to be one sad nvidia fanboy's last desperate refuge.

TechReport's article on Mantle

Andersson said DICE spent about two months porting Battlefield 4's Frostbite 3 game engine to Mantle. Asked for a ballpark cost figure, Katsman told me that, for a simple PC project like Nixxes' Thief port, adding Mantle support might amount to roughly a 10% increase in development cost.

HardOCP's gaming benchmarks of still-current AMD FX CPUs vs Sandy/Ivy Bridge

tl;dr version: "Is Vishera a better part than Intel's Ivy Bridge or previous Sandy Bridge processors? No it is not, not even close."

Those are just some quick searches. I could find more.
 
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42. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 14:16 harlock
 
people seem to be quite defensive about this for various reasons

rather fascinating Toff
 
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41. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 14:10 JSP
 
I'd like to know where you come up with adding 10% to the budget or that AMD CPUs are any demonstrably worse than Intel in gaming. Spreading FUD like one has swine diarrhea syndrome out of the ass seems to be one sad nvidia fanboy's last desperate refuge.  
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40. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 14:00 UHD
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 13:31:
People buy graphics cards to play their games at the best resolutions, and Mantle gives AMD players a framerate advantage in multiplayer.

Unless you have an Intel CPU, in which case Mantle (likely) won't make a meaningful difference in your framerate.

nVidia doesn't need to implement Mantle. At all. Nobody needs to do anything about Mantle. Mantle only exists because AMD's current generation of CPUs are poor for gaming. It will exist as long as AMD keeps throwing money at developers to add the code path. Game development budgets are astronomical already; nobody's going to add Mantle support when it adds 10% to the budget and benefits a fraction of a fraction of their userbase without some kind of compensation.
 
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39. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 13:50 Frags4Fun
 
PropheT wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 13:01:
Frags4Fun wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 12:03:
My hope is that this will give Nvidia a reason to lower the cost of their cards. As it is, they're out of control with their prices.

If you go shopping for video cards right now Nvidia's are cheaper than AMD's since all the Radeons are being bought out for bitcoin mining. Even when they weren't the price differences weren't as significant as they had been in the past anyway.

My problem is that I'm currently running a Gigabyte GTX 680 Windforce X3 OC 2GB and I want to do SLI. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of buying a 2 GB GTX 680, so buying a second card would be a dumb move. If I had a 3-4+ GB 680 then I would buy the second card without hesitating. I've considered selling the 680 and buying two cheaper cards for SLI but the prices are so stinking high. I can't justify the purchase because the increase won't be that significant and the 2 GB limit makes it pointless to do SLI because some games want more than 2 GB especially when running triple monitors for Nvidia Surround. /sigh Oh well, I run BF4 on triple monitors and am getting between 60-70 FPS on High and ultra settings.
 
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38. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 13:44 CJ_Parker
 
jacobvandy wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 12:29:
There's no reason to ditch anything if only a few games ever use Mantle. Without NVIDIA support a lot of devs just won't bother with it.

Eeeeeee-fucking-xactly . Heck, most publishers/devs can't even be arsed to dedicate half an hour to edit config files to remove console leftovers or make the UI scale better to high resolutions on the PC.
Anyone who believes that Mantle will be supported by more than a handful of games is delusional.

The only reason that BF4 has Mantle support is that AMD purportedly threw $8 million bucks in EA's general direction. It remains to be seen how many more millions AMD can afford in bribes. Looking at their financial track record I have serious doubts that the coffers will last all that long.

But without the bribes publishers aren't going to give a fuck about a proper PC version, let alone Mantle support. It's a pretty expensive marketing gag by AMD to boost their VGA sales but this shit has zero substance in the greater picture and will likely just die a silent death from lack of support and interest.
 
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37. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 13:31 jdreyer
 
InBlack wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 10:48:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 30, 2014, 10:32:
So where is that promised cross vendor compatibility again? You'd think for such a big release as a BF4 render update where 70%+ have Nvidia cards this would be mentioned somewhere....

Thats up to Nvidia to implement. Somehow I doubt that will ever happen.

It would be in their interest to, if for no other reason than to deny AMD a differentiation advantage. Also, AMD will suddenly have a price performance advantage for any game that implements this. That's why they went after BF4. People buy graphics cards to play their games at the best resolutions, and Mantle gives AMD players a framerate advantage in multiplayer.
 
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"It's just a bunch of mystic bovine scatology to me." - 1badmf
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36. Re: Battlefield 4 Mantle Update Released Jan 30, 2014, 13:30 DangerDog
 
It would be fun to tear into the graphic files and 3d models to see how un-optimized they are.

It'll be interesting to see head to head benchmarks with Nvidia and ATI cards now but even if the 290/x pulls ahead all that heat and noise just isn't worth it.
 
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75 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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