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Steam Top 10

Valve reports the following were the 10 bestselling games on Steam last week:

  1. DayZ
  2. Rust
  3. Starbound
  4. Saints Row IV
  5. The Banner Saga
  6. The Hitman Collection
  7. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
  8. Insurgency
  9. Blackguards
  10. Next Car Game

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87 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 1.
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87. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 28, 2014, 23:36 Jerykk
 
And you are focusing on "sales and budgets" which is not he point, but rather that DayZ mod massively increased the sales of Arma 2, generating them a lot of revenue to use to develop the stand-alone. A ballpark estimate is easy enough to figure out, and considering a lot of work had already been done on the mod for free...there was a large jumping off point, which they clearly have failed to take advantage of.
But you have no way to refute this, so you attack one meaningless statement instead of the real fact of the matter...which you tend to do a lot of around here.

You seem to be forgetting the existence of ArmA3, which had the highest production values of any BiS game yet. Any profits they made from ArmA2 likely went towards ArmA3.

Also, you can't argue that sales and budgets are beside the point when the point revolves around those very things. You're assuming that BiS has enough money to fund DayZ without resorting to Early Access but you can't make that assumption unless you know how profitable ArmA2 and ArmA3 were. Neither budget nor lifetime sales are publicly available for either game so you really aren't qualified to make any assumptions about their profitability.

I'll say it one last time, there are benefits and downsides to the program. A lot of people seem to be willing to completely dismiss the downsides with the argument that the customer was warned. Changes need to be made to keep the companies accountable.

Nobody is dismissing the downsides of Early Access. They've all been recognized in this thread. What we've been dismissing is your claim that Early Access needs to change because you don't like it. If it does indeed need to change, the market will make it change. Consumers ultimately decide what succeeds and fails. If EA and Ubisoft try to exploit Early Access by releasing shitty, broken games, consumers will not buy said games. If too many Early Access games are never finished or improved, customers will lose faith in the system and stop supporting it. Change will occur naturally.

This comment was edited on Jan 28, 2014, 23:43.
 
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86. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 28, 2014, 10:43 Tim1_2
 
Jerykk wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 03:43:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 01:59:
StaticRandomNumber wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 00:16:
People paid $50 for Battlefield 4, think DayZ may not be as pretty but has more polish in terms of stability.

Trollbait +10

It's not really trollbait. BF4 was broken at launch, remained broken for weeks (months for some customers) and, unlike Early Access games, gave no warning of this to customers. The DayZ store page gives tons of warnings that the game is buggy and unfinished. DayZ also costs half as much as BF4.

BF4 crashed my PC way more than the DayZ Standalone has, and I've played DayZ way more. Fact.
 
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85. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 20:25 Redmask
 
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 17:00:
Starbound, considering the success of Terraria?

Starbound doesn't have a big studio behind it and the main creator of Terraria was Redigit, Tiyuri did the sprite work and some programming. None of us really know how well compensated he was and there are still some outstanding claims about budgets from earlier that need substantiation before we go there I'd say. Ubisoft is a big studio but that doesn't mean all of its projects are big or that they are big earners. Alternative funding is one way for smaller projects to justify themselves in an increasingly franchise driven corporate atmosphere where multi-mil sellers are almost required to continue. I don't see a problem with any company, large or small, getting into early access games as long as consumers are well advised on what it is they are buying.

I'll say it one last time, there are benefits and downsides to the program. A lot of people seem to be willing to completely dismiss the downsides with the argument that the customer was warned. Changes need to be made to keep the companies accountable.

That doesn't seem like an accurate representation of the comments. Most just don't seem to think that people should get a refund from an early access game. People have cautioned against the same things already, you aren't sharing anything new. Customers will ultimately hold the companies accountable based on how their games flow out of early access, its a 'problem' that will solve itself. Like any system there will be abuse and it will take some adjustment to get rid of it.

I don't like early access but no one is forcing me to buy early access games. So I don't buy them. I think games like Day Z are the exception rather than the norm too, most people aren't interested in buggy games or beta testing content that changes often weekly or daily so I think the market for this will be smaller than people realize. Survival games of this type might turn out to be a passing fad too, we don't really know where it's going to be in 12 months.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 20:34.
 
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84. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 17:36 Prez
 
Just to throw my two cents in - this debate is pretty much mirroring the ones about kickstarter projects, especially ones by studios that aren't immediately considered as needing the financial help that KS provides. But to my mind it isn't about what dev studios that are attached to publishers with deep pockets should or shouldn't need. With Kickstarter (and now with Early Access) the point is that the devs conceivably are making a game that they could not get a publisher to sign off on. I don't know the inner workings of Bohemia Interactive but I assume that despite the success of the DayZ mod they were unwilling to put forth the full amount of capital required for development of a standalone DayZ game. Before the advent of things like KS and Early Access that would have meant the fans would have been left with nothing but a discontinued mod. Now with the Early Acess program, there is still a way for devs with uncooperative or risk adverse publishers to get games out to gamers. Honestly in my opinion that one huge plus outweighs any and all potential negatives and risks inherent to KS and EA.

As far as the question about Ubisoft doing Early Access, allow me to offer a hypothetical: Let's say Ubisoft ships "Watchdogs" too early to make the holiday season and it releases as a broken, buggy mess. Tens of thousands of refunds are demanded by angry preorder customers and the game fails disastrously. Typically in years past the series would have ended there. But let's say that the dev team knows it still has the potential to make the great game the promising premise of Watchdogs could potentially provide and does an Early Access for Watchdogs 2. Sure people would complain that a studio inside Ubisoft shouldn't need EA, and many others would understandably stay far away (once bitten, twice shy and all that). But those of us who are willing to give the dev team another try at that great game that Watchdogs could potentially be have a chance to not only get another game, but help shape it's development so the same mistakes aren't made. To me that kind of scenario ought to be a gamer's dream come true. So yeah, I'd be okay with a Ubisoft Early Access. And I think many others would be too.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 17:45.
 
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83. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 17:00 Krovven
 
Beamer, you wouldn't consider Ubisoft putting Might and Magic or Ghost Recon Online up for Early Access as shady? Or Starbound, considering the success of Terraria? Early Access is still very new. It won't be long before we start seeing more and more big companies and already successful smaller devs using Early Access, not because they need to, but because they can. As already made clear by some people here, they will think that adding a line of text to the store page somehow absolves those companies from any responsibility after the customer has given their money.

I'll say it one last time, there are benefits and downsides to the program. A lot of people seem to be willing to completely dismiss the downsides with the argument that the customer was warned. Changes need to be made to keep the companies accountable.


 
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82. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 16:46 Krovven
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 11:25:
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:43:
Fibrocyte wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:26:
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 04:35:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 01:37:
You have a source for these sales figures and the development budgets of ArmA3 and DayZ?

Yep, Google. You have fingers, use them.

Translation: Due to the possibility and probability of me being wrong, I'm not going to cite my sources. Instead, I'll ask you to go out and try to find the information yourself and then just say you're bad at google when you can't do it.

You were saying? Don't bother taking the foot out of your mouth, it suits you.

At a glance, none of the links you provided show development budgets for Arma3 and DayZ. See the original quote above if you're confused on the sources you need to cite during your second attempt.

Hey... at least you tried.

And you are focusing on "sales and budgets" which is not he point, but rather that DayZ mod massively increased the sales of Arma 2, generating them a lot of revenue to use to develop the stand-alone. A ballpark estimate is easy enough to figure out, and considering a lot of work had already been done on the mod for free...there was a large jumping off point, which they clearly have failed to take advantage of.
But you have no way to refute this, so you attack one meaningless statement instead of the real fact of the matter...which you tend to do a lot of around here.
 
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81. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 14:18 jacobvandy
 
Except for the rest of the Top 10 games by concurrent players on Steam all being pretty old, including Civ, Skyrim, etc. I had to go down pretty far to find some that came out as recently as those examples. :p

And if other devs want to follow suit, they are free to do so. However it will be their own asses hung out to dry if their game isn't good enough to sell what they were expecting. Anyone setting themselves up to fail like that probably weren't able to make a good game anyway.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 14:26.
 
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80. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 14:11 Creston
 
jacobvandy wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 12:20:
More PC gamers enjoy playing DayZ RIGHT NOW, despite the bugs and missing features, than they enjoy playing Assassin's Creed IV, Call of Duty: Ghost, Payday 2, and many other new "finished and bug-free" games.

Really the only thing that that proves is that people play the latest games. Most everyone is undoubtedly already done with AC4 and Ghosts.

That said, DayZ's success is kind of gobsmacking. And I'm a little worried that it means that more and more devs are just going to throw their alpha up for sale and expect me to fund the rest of development...

 
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79. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 12:53 Beamer
 
InBlack wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 05:59:
Beamer wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 01:47:
On one hand, I think selling these "Early Access" deals is pretty shady.

On the other hand, you definitely get more out of them than you do a Kickstarter project. At least, even if the project goes belly-up, you had something to show for it. You don't on Kickstarter. So, while these projects tend to be from more established companies, I don't think they tend to be from ones rolling in money, and this gives them the opportunity to spend more capital better polishing the game, reduces the need for a certain push-it-out-the-door launch date, and gives the chance to test some ideas in the community.


I dont often agree with Beamer but on this here were are on the same page. If you dont approve of early access gameplay, or believe it to be of a shady nature then there is one simple solution, dont buy into it. Its actually very simple. And you dont have to generalize, do it on a case to case basis if you like.

It would take a lot for me to bother with Early Access. A lot. I don't want to deal with bugs, and I don't spend enough time gaming these days to return to something. If I play it for a while, I'm probably done, so the odds of me returning when the game is finished (and improved) are low. Even if I did, much like with CS betas, I'd probably feel the changes were for the worse because they made the product similar to what I enjoyed but not quite the same.

So, like you said, I just don't buy it. I play something in my queue until the full version is out. And likely on sale.
But we've yet to see an Early Access that I find shady. EA doing an Early Access on a Call of Duty I'd find shady. EA doing an Early Access on something that likely never would have been funded I find mostly not-shady. All these small companies doing it I find fine, just nothing I'd ever put money to.
 
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78. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 12:33 Jerykk
 
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:42:
Really Jerykk, I know you aren't stupid...are you just being obtuse on purpose? You don't need to see DayZ development budgets or Arma budgets, or sales figures to see how much DayZ has influenced sales of Arma 2. And if you think BIS has big budgets, you are off your rocker. If they had money they (theoretically) would make better and less buggy pieces of shit games. If they had spent any money on the stand-alone development, it wouldn't have taken them well over a year to get to the point they are now (which is still behind the mod) in development, with no end in sight. Most companies that spend millions upon millions of dollars on game development are frivolous with the money. I've been in one of those companies, I've seen it first hand.

Plenty of these stories out there about how Arma2 sales saw massive increases (to a 3 year old game) after the release of the DayZ mod.

Arma2 Server list majority running DayZ.

Credited for selling over 300,000 copies of Arma 2 in DayZ's first 2 months of release. I see you had linked the same story earlier...what you failed to note was that it was just regarding the first two months after release, not total sales for the last 2 years. That article was written 2 months after the release of the mod.

Not enough? How about this one...

Most of these stories are approaching 2 years old at this point. http://dayzmod.com/ 1,737,741 Unique Players. Do the math.

Those are nice links but none of them provide what I asked for. That is, specific figures for the budgets of ArmA2/Arma3/DayZ. Or even sales figures for ArmA3. As for ArmA2, can you provide any links for its lifetime sales? From what I've read, the DayZ mod boosted its sales by 500% so I can only assume that it didn't sell super well before that.

Anyway, I totally agree that DayZ had a huge impact on ArmA2's sales. That's why I never argued otherwise. Similarly, DayZ Standalone has had a huge impact on BiS's ability to fund their games. DayZ will likely be their most polished game yet, thanks to Early Access.

You're just the pot calling the kettle black... A game being buggy or incomplete doesn't mean it's automatically impossible to enjoy playing it. More PC gamers enjoy playing DayZ RIGHT NOW, despite the bugs and missing features, than they enjoy playing Assassin's Creed IV, Call of Duty: Ghost, Payday 2, and many other new "finished and bug-free" games.

This. The million+ people currently playing DayZ are enjoying the experience despite the bugs and missing features.

I mean, really, what exactly is the issue here? Bohemia has a history of releasing buggy and unpolished games anyway, probably because they had to release them prematurely in order to start generating revenue. It's not any different with DayZ, except they warn you that the game is buggy and incomplete. I can think of a number of games that would have benefit from being in Early Access (X: Rebirth immediately comes to mind) before their official release.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 12:43.
 
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77. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 12:23 ASeven
 
My view of early alpha is this, basically it's like a kickstarter where you get a product immediately instead of waiting. Simply put, if I like the developer, the plan, the idea their pitching after I've done a lot of research about it then I'll be glad to help them fund the game.

However I also agree with what most people have against early alpha. A good start in making early alpha a more solid business model would be to have, in each game's page, a very thorough description from the devs about the game, their plans, etc, much like you find in the average KS project. That would be a good first step.
 
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76. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 12:20 jacobvandy
 
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:53:
Just because people are willing to throw their money around for incomplete games doesn't automatically make it a good thing. Oh the irony with all the complaints from people buying buggy incomplete games, and now it's considered a valid business model to do just that.

As usual, some people can only see things in black & white. No way in hell something can have both positives and negatives and changes ever be made to improve the system. /sacrasm

But hey, why am I surprised when asshats insult someone from expressing their opinion about wanting a refund for a game they didn't like (that is technically a preorder and should be allowed). Nope, people need to tell him how wrong he is for having his own opinion. Fucktards.

You're just the pot calling the kettle black... A game being buggy or incomplete doesn't mean it's automatically impossible to enjoy playing it. More PC gamers enjoy playing DayZ RIGHT NOW, despite the bugs and missing features, than they enjoy playing Assassin's Creed IV, Call of Duty: Ghost, Payday 2, and many other new "finished and bug-free" games. I'm sorry that scares you, but it's the way it is. There are plenty of bad games on Early Access -- I've even regretfully bit on one or two and can only hope they eventually get better -- but to bring up my original point at the beginning of this thread, those games are not the ones you see topping the charts.
 
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75. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 11:55 HorrorScope
 
4 EA over here:

Blackguards - Was In EA. Released. Good.
Divinity OS - In EA. Will be good. Glad to support.
7DTD - In EA. Already good. Glad to support and play as we go.
MMX10 - Was in EA. Released. Good.

I've had zero issues with it, happy to have the option than not. Now if you don't do some research and buy these blindly and then get pissed about it, that is more on your end. It's a product offering. I like the sneak peak, I like to give feedback, I'm all for supporting games that the big boys won't make but that I want.
 
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74. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 11:25 Fibrocyte
 
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:43:
Fibrocyte wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:26:
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 04:35:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 01:37:
You have a source for these sales figures and the development budgets of ArmA3 and DayZ?

Yep, Google. You have fingers, use them.

Translation: Due to the possibility and probability of me being wrong, I'm not going to cite my sources. Instead, I'll ask you to go out and try to find the information yourself and then just say you're bad at google when you can't do it.

You were saying? Don't bother taking the foot out of your mouth, it suits you.

At a glance, none of the links you provided show development budgets for Arma3 and DayZ. See the original quote above if you're confused on the sources you need to cite during your second attempt.

Hey... at least you tried.
 
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73. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 10:04 Verno
 
Quboid wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 09:55:
My main problem is the risk of Steam selling confidence in PC gaming for a quick buck. That affects absolutely everybody here, even if you've never bought an Early Access game or never even used Steam. Individually, people not understand what they're getting into is their own damn fault. However, if this leads potentially millions of people to give up on PC gaming and its horrible, buggy games then every PC gamer suffers.

This is a valid concern. We've all been conditioned that refunds are not the norm in the PC space and that buggy games are a thing but I feel like early access combines all the worst aspects of PC gaming into a little package. I'm sure some people enjoy being a part of the process but I do worry about it becoming the norm. I've bought some alpha games but generally had poor experiences so I won't be repeating it.
 
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72. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 09:56 Redmask
 
Verno wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 09:16:
I agree with what you're saying here but with one caveat, they can't just explain away everything with the early access tag. If I buy something on Steam and it literally never functions or is radically different from the initial purchase description but was given an early access tag, does that make it ok? Is it my fault or the developers? Do I get a refund? Obviously its an extreme example but there are situations where it might be called for. I don't think this is one of them but I don't like the idea of ruling out refunds altogether because you will always have someone (a user or a developer) who abuses the system.

I think there are exceptions to everything but I don't want to come across as defending Early Access, I am not a fan of it. I just don't think anyone was wrong for criticizing the user who wanted a refund here, they have their opinion just like everyone else and he posted it for public consumption.
 
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71. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 09:55 Quboid
 
Jerykk wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 22:25:
Quboid wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 19:06:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 17:07:
I think the real issue is that the finished games are less interesting than the Early Access ones. If DayZ or Rust were finished, they'd still be topping the charts.

That's partly because finished games have to actually implement the features they promise. Day Z would surely sell well and maybe Rust would too but I think they and other Early Access games benefit from being able to say in response to any criticism "well, it's not finished, that will improve". Every game looks good when all the bad stuff can be hyped away.

Except these games are selling based on word of mouth, not their store descriptions. Word of mouth is the result of people playing the games. People here may not enjoy DayZ or Rust but obviously there are a lot of people who do, regardless of how incomplete those experiences may be.

Word of mouth from people who are frequently (not always) prepared to forgive flaws because it's Early Access, as long as vague promises on the store page suggests that this will (maybe) change.

That said, and as wary as I am of Early Access, this made me laugh:

What's your point? Does this somehow make it ok to charge people for buggy incomplete games, just because they warned you ahead of time?

Er, yes. It's not that simple but essentially yes.


My main problem is the risk of Steam selling confidence in PC gaming for a quick buck. That affects absolutely everybody here, even if you've never bought an Early Access game or never even used Steam. Individually, people not understand what they're getting into is their own damn fault. However, if this leads potentially millions of people to give up on PC gaming and its horrible, buggy games then every PC gamer suffers.
 
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70. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 09:16 Verno
 
Redmask wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 09:07:
It does make it ok for them to sell the game. Whether you or I agree morally with the behavior is a different matter and all we can really do is vote with our wallets and warn other people not to buy early access games. I strongly dislike early access games and refuse to purchase any because I do not agree that it will be ultimately good for the industry as a whole. I do not however feel that anyone is entitled to a refund when they had full warning before hand. I recall you telling people in a previous matter that if people didn't heed the text then its their own fault.

I agree with what you're saying here but with one caveat, they can't just explain away everything with the early access tag. If I buy something on Steam and it literally never functions or is radically different from the initial purchase description but was given an early access tag, does that make it ok? Is it my fault or the developers? Do I get a refund? Obviously its an extreme example but there are situations where it might be called for. I don't think this is one of them but I don't like the idea of ruling out refunds altogether because you will always have someone (a user or a developer) who abuses the system.
 
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69. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 09:07 Redmask
 
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 08:37:
There are many downsides to selling incomplete games with the promise they may one day be complete. Just because they added a little text on the store page (to me) doesn't make it ok.

It does make it ok for them to sell the game. Whether you or I agree morally with the behavior is a different matter and all we can really do is vote with our wallets and warn other people not to buy early access games. I strongly dislike early access games and refuse to purchase any because I do not agree that it will be ultimately good for the industry as a whole. I do not however feel that anyone is entitled to a refund when they had full warning before hand. I recall you telling people in a previous matter that if people didn't heed the text then its their own fault.

I looked, Early Access games are not applicable for refunds, despite technically being preorders. If the game never even gets out of Early Access, gets cancelled, the game completely changes from what was advertised, etc, etc...too bad.

WarZ (aka Infestation) had pricing tiers for preorder, beta, alpha early access. Look how that turned out. People had a shit, the game was removed from Steam briefly, they changed some descriptions and then put it back on Steam. Apparently to this day, in it's "final" state, it's still a buggy feature incomplete mess, despite going through it's own supposed early access public alpha/beta.

You ignored a major difference between early access games and preorders, the consumer gets use of the product during one and doesn't during another. It wouldn't be fair to the developer if people could just refund an early access game after playing it and deciding they didn't like it for whatever reason, that's a demo.

The War Z was sold before the Early Access program and had a whole host of issues other than being released early.
 
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68. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 08:37 Krovven
 
Redmask wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 07:41:
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 07:25:
What's your point? Does this somehow make it ok to charge people for buggy incomplete games, just because they warned you ahead of time?

Yes it makes it ok. The market will bear it or not. The people were warned. Nothing is wrong with that situation. I don't agree with it so I don't put any money into early access games but that's my choice. No one is forced to do this and they certainly aren't entitled to refunds when they have every warning in the world ahead of the purchase that it is buggy and feature incomplete.

I would love to see early access games go away too but that's really a different discussion and it's different than buying a supposedly feature complete game which is advertised as such.

It's not a different discussion, that's kind of the point. It's all connected. There are many downsides to selling incomplete games with the promise they may one day be complete. Just because they added a little text on the store page (to me) doesn't make it ok. I looked, Early Access games are not applicable for refunds, despite technically being preorders. If the game never even gets out of Early Access, gets cancelled, the game completely changes from what was advertised, etc, etc...too bad. When it comes to "final" release games, consumers have rights, granted most companies do everything they possibly can to prevent you from exercising those rights and most people won't bother. What they are basically saying is you have no rights if you buy an Early Access game, because they put a little text on the store page warning people. BTW, that text is not as upfront on most Early Access game store pages as it is on the DayZ page.

WarZ (aka Infestation) had pricing tiers for preorder, beta, alpha early access. Look how that turned out. People had a shit, the game was removed from Steam briefly, they changed some descriptions and then put it back on Steam. Apparently to this day, in it's "final" state, it's still a buggy feature incomplete mess, despite going through it's own supposed early access public alpha/beta.

Yet, now over a year later, it's being considered perfectly acceptable business model by some for this practice to continue with other games.

 
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