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Steam Top 10

New DayZ dawn in the list of the 10 bestselling games on Steam for last week:

  1. DayZ
  2. Starbound
  3. Rust
  4. The Walking Dead: Season Two
  5. BioShock Triple Pack
  6. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
  7. Batman: Arkham Origins
  8. METAL GEAR RISING: REVENGEANCE
  9. BioShock Infinite
  10. The Stanley Parable

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80 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 3.
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40. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 23:37 Redmask
 
Oh there's a huge market for Coop zombie survival, but these games aren't it. I truly wonder what the stats are of the percentage of Coop players versus pvp. My personal guess is at least 40% of gamers are serious Coop players.

Too bad Techland are so anal about providing a Editor. If it's true the up coming Dying Light is Open World, then modding could make it one of the biggest and most successful zombvival games.

I think the best sort of coop zombie game would need some sort of building and crafting components so that the zombies could be made more dangerous otherwise it would get boring pretty quickly. 7 Days to Die seems pretty promising but very low budget.
 
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39. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 23:36 Acleacius
 
Oh there's a huge market for Coop zombie survival, but these games aren't it. I truly wonder what the stats are of the percentage of Coop players versus pvp. My personal guess is at least 40% of gamers are serious Coop players.

Too bad Techland are so anal about providing a Editor. If it's true the up coming Dying Light is Open World, then modding could make it one of the biggest and most successful zombvival games.
 
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.That is easy.All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.It works the same way in any country.
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38. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 23:24 Redmask
 
We appear to agree on most things but I just wanted to respond to these 2 parts:

There are plenty of solo games that have challenging zombies. Nether doesn't even use zombies, specifically. They are these warping rage monsters. You telling me that they can't make monsters that have super-speed and can warp challenging enough for gamers without having PvP? I call BS on that.

I'm not suggesting that specifically but that game features PvP combat anyway. I think developers can make challenging monsters but most don't seem interested. Players are smart, we figure out AI pretty quickly, I don't think it would be a great long term design plan. I think most survival games on the market do not have challenging AI so they rely on the human element in the game to help provide tension. Humans are unpredictable and provide an intelligent friend or foe, so I don't really see why someone would make an online survival game where they were limited in some way. I'm sure someone will make that game for people who want to play it though, assuming there is demand.

I never suggested safe zones or balancing combat. There are ways however to actually have drawbacks for killing people for no reason, or award them for working with other players.

I don't think people should be penalized for killing others, instead give benefits to players for working in groups and that will offset the griefing to the degree that it can be. Players should learn not to lone wolf in a survival game anyway.

None of these games have really hit the right balance yet but they're getting closer. I'd like to see buildable player settlements, outposts and forts which I think would help offset concerns about griefing. They don't need to be officially sanctioned safe zones, players can make up their own rules and enforce them within the boundaries like they do on some Minecraft servers I've seen.

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2013, 23:42.
 
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37. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 23:02 Krovven
 
Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 22:08:
Griefing is a side effect of having Player vs Player combat, you cannot get rid of it without getting rid of PvP which effectively guts a major part of those games.

Maybe not, but you can penalize it with good design. I've already posted in another thread an idea that could be expanded upon, but has the basis to lead to fun gameplay while limiting the unnecessary PvP.

"Something that would be a lot of fun, is if a player loses their humanity with each player they kill, becoming weaker each time, eventually becoming a monster themselves and playing as that monster until they are killed. There would need to be more to it, providing a way for players to gain humanity by peacefully interacting with players, etc. "

Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 22:08:
It's not like zombie AI presents any real difficulty to players anyway, the whole point is the human element which is unpredictable.

There are plenty of solo games that have challenging zombies. Nether doesn't even use zombies, specifically. They are these warping rage monsters. You telling me that they can't make monsters that have super-speed and can warp challenging enough for gamers without having PvP? I call BS on that.

Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 22:08:
You can't have meaningful PvP interaction without risk and fights are rarely fair, people just don't like being on the losing side. No one said they like griefing or microtransactions, people just like PvP.... You can't have fair, honorable combat in a PvP game without effectively neutering the whole experience. There are many people who play those games precisely because they don't want to work together with others and you can't really force them to do so.

Again...I'm going to repeat myself, for like the 10th time...I'm not suggesting removing PvP from the equation, or "neutering" it. If devs can come up with ways to award a person for killing other players, they can come up with ways to award a person for helping and working together with other players. I can think of plenty of ways just off the top of my head. Any devs want to hire me, I'd be happy to contribute to that design.

Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 22:08:
Once you start putting in numerous safe zones, forcing players to abide by engagement rules and trying to over balance combat you end up watering down the whole thing and people lose interest.

I never suggested safe zones or balancing combat. There are ways however to actually have drawbacks for killing people for no reason, or award them for working with other players.

Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 22:08:
There are numerous games on the market to accommodate that sort of play style already, I like that these games are branching out and experimenting more. It reminds me of the forced PvP and coop in the Souls games for the PS3.

No there aren't, that's the point here. The "survival" genre of games are basically all the same and nobody has tried to do anything different, with games like Nether basically copying feature by feature of WarZ, which both were basically just doing what DayZ did and trying to get their games to market before the stand-alone DayZ.

 
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36. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 22:58 Jerykk
 
If you are ok with the PvP griefing and micro-transactions in these games, great. You've got several games to choose from to get that. There are plenty of people that are not interested in these things, and we'll choose to hold our money and game time until a survival game comes along that has some good game design for coop, but also allowing for meaningful PvP interaction.

I'd argue that DayZ already offers a compelling co-op survival experience with meaningful PvP interaction. If you cooperate with other players, you are more likely to survive. Solo players will always be an easier target than groups of players. Some of the most memorable DayZ moments occur when people work together.

That said, I agree that there should be stronger incentives for players to work together beyond just survival. For example, the ability to build items and structures would help unify people towards a common goal and make trading a bigger part of the game. There wouldn't be any arbitrary restrictions (like requiring 8 people to build a specific structure). Instead, cooperation would emerge naturally as the result of the game's systems. A player could theoretically build a fort by himself but collecting all the necessary resources and then defending himself during construction would be made significantly faster and easier by working with other players.
 
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35. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 22:12 Redmask
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 20:25:
I quit playing DayZ and WarZ because of the blatant cheating. You would get within 300 yards of someone and be killed without notice.

Cheating is a whole different ballgame, obviously no one likes it but I was responding to your post about griefing.
 
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34. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 22:08 Redmask
 
Krovven wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 21:23:
You guys keep arguing that the game needs PvP. You keep missing the point. I'm not saying get rid of PvP. I'm saying there needs to be reasons for players to work together and not just kill each other on sight.

Griefing is a side effect of having Player vs Player combat, you cannot get rid of it without getting rid of PvP which effectively guts a major part of those games. It's not like zombie AI presents any real difficulty to players anyway, the whole point is the human element which is unpredictable. I totally agree players need more reason to work together to cut down on some of the griefing or at at least help mount better defenses but that's a different point entirely. You can't really stop griefing, all you can do is reward cooperation which helps balance it out.

If you are ok with the PvP griefing and micro-transactions in these games, great. You've got several games to choose from to get that. There are plenty of people that are not interested in these things, and we'll choose to hold our money and game time until a survival game comes along that has some good game design for coop, but also allowing for meaningful PvP interaction.

You can't have meaningful PvP interaction without risk and fights are rarely fair, people just don't like being on the losing side. No one said they like griefing or microtransactions, people just like PvP. I don't like being stomped by a roving pack of guys playing bandits but I like that its a risk in the game, it adds a sense of realism and danger to an otherwise stale experience with your usual zombie AI. You can't have fair, honorable combat in a PvP game without effectively neutering the whole experience. There are many people who play those games precisely because they don't want to work together with others and you can't really force them to do so.

Once you start putting in numerous safe zones, forcing players to abide by engagement rules and trying to over balance combat you end up watering down the whole thing and people lose interest. There are numerous games on the market to accommodate that sort of play style already, I like that these games are branching out and experimenting more. It reminds me of the forced PvP and coop in the Souls games for the PS3.
 
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33. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 21:34 SpectralMeat
 
harlock wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 20:59:
i agree with the dude in the worth a buy video when he talks about how all these open world zombie games need some kind of bonus for grouping up and co-operating and saving people and so on - it needs to be part of the game mechanics otherwise there is no incentive to do it

there needs to be something to offset the griefer paradise aspect, otherwise its just ends up as a chaotic free-for-all for pre-pubes
Exactly, the guy in that video nailed it.
 
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32. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 21:23 Krovven
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 20:00:
Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 19:36:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 18:52:
The problem with DayZ type games is the non stop player griefing. Just takes everything that is supposed to be fun out of it.

The threat of humans is the whole reason to play, the zombies are trivialized once you adjust. You can't remove that tension from the gameplay, the potential for PvP and cooperation are why people play in the first place instead of just picking up a single player zombie game. Build up a community of people and kill the griefers or just learn the ins and outs so you know how to avoid them.

This. If you arbitrarily limit PvP, you ruin the very thing that makes DayZ and its ilk compelling.

If your survival game isn't difficult enough without blatant PvP griefing, then you need to make design changes to your game.

You guys keep arguing that the game needs PvP. You keep missing the point. I'm not saying get rid of PvP. I'm saying there needs to be reasons for players to work together and not just kill each other on sight.

The other thing contributing to the problems, at least games like WarZ and Nether is the real money micro-transactions, especially in a game you've already paid to play. But that is really a problem in far too many games these days.

If you are ok with the PvP griefing and micro-transactions in these games, great. You've got several games to choose from to get that. There are plenty of people that are not interested in these things, and we'll choose to hold our money and game time until a survival game comes along that has some good game design for coop, but also allowing for meaningful PvP interaction.

 
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31. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 20:59 harlock
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 18:52:
The problem with DayZ type games is the non stop player griefing. Just takes everything that is supposed to be fun out of it.

they might as well call it DayG because its all about the griefers.. thats like the entire point of the game

i agree with the dude in the worth a buy video when he talks about how all these open world zombie games need some kind of bonus for grouping up and co-operating and saving people and so on - it needs to be part of the game mechanics otherwise there is no incentive to do it

there needs to be something to offset the griefer paradise aspect, otherwise its just ends up as a chaotic free-for-all for pre-pubes
 
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30. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 20:29 Frags4Fun
 
jacobvandy wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 20:24:
Frags4Fun wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 19:45:
I finally got around to trying DayZ and after about 20 minutes I couldn't stand it any more (big fan of the mod though). They should rename it to DrinkZ. You can't go 5 freaking minutes without your character crying about needing a drink and continuing to bug you about it every minute or so. With a game that uses a true 24 hour clock, you would think that a character could go more than 5 minutes without needing a drink. Take a drink and not 5 minutes later, "I feel like taking a drink". I said screw this crap and quit the game. Maybe they'll wise up and fix it. And I don't care if it's early alpha, it's dumb that someone programmed it to be so frequent. It's not a bug, it's by design and needs to be changed.

You spawn hungry and thirsty (about 30% of capacity, when it starts warning you). It no longer completely satisfies your hunger or thirst when you drink one soda or eat one piece of food... You need to keep going until your stomach is full, and then you can go for a couple hours of play time without seeing any such messages. They did it this way because being well fed allows you to replenish your own blood levels and, I believe, better stave off sickness. It's not just an empty "realism" annoyance mechanic anymore.

Your problem was that you were floating around that 30% warning marker the whole time, so whenever you dipped below the threshold you'd take one drink, go back above it but just barely, and then a little while later dip below it again. I'll grant you that they need to adjust the messages to better communicate when you're just barely eating and drinking enough to not be in danger of passing out, but if you'd spend two minutes to wise up yourself, you could have learned all of what I just told you. Because it was figured out and posted everywhere less than two hours after the alpha was released.

Thanks for the explanation. The game should state this in some way but since they removed the onscreen indicators there's no way to know other than scouring forums, which I don't have time to spend reading through forums. I barely have time to even play the game. Thanks again for the info. Much appreciated.
 
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29. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 20:25 xXBatmanXx
 
Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 19:36:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 18:52:
The problem with DayZ type games is the non stop player griefing. Just takes everything that is supposed to be fun out of it.

The threat of humans is the whole reason to play, the zombies are trivialized once you adjust. You can't remove that tension from the gameplay, the potential for PvP and cooperation are why people play in the first place instead of just picking up a single player zombie game. Build up a community of people and kill the griefers or just learn the ins and outs so you know how to avoid them.

I quit playing DayZ and WarZ because of the blatant cheating. You would get within 300 yards of someone and be killed without notice.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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28. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 20:24 jacobvandy
 
Frags4Fun wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 19:45:
I finally got around to trying DayZ and after about 20 minutes I couldn't stand it any more (big fan of the mod though). They should rename it to DrinkZ. You can't go 5 freaking minutes without your character crying about needing a drink and continuing to bug you about it every minute or so. With a game that uses a true 24 hour clock, you would think that a character could go more than 5 minutes without needing a drink. Take a drink and not 5 minutes later, "I feel like taking a drink". I said screw this crap and quit the game. Maybe they'll wise up and fix it. And I don't care if it's early alpha, it's dumb that someone programmed it to be so frequent. It's not a bug, it's by design and needs to be changed.

You spawn hungry and thirsty (about 30% of capacity, when it starts warning you). It no longer completely satisfies your hunger or thirst when you drink one soda or eat one piece of food... You need to keep going until your stomach is full, and then you can go for a couple hours of play time without seeing any such messages. They did it this way because being well fed allows you to replenish your own blood levels and, I believe, better stave off sickness. It's not just an empty "realism" annoyance mechanic anymore.

Your problem was that you were floating around that 30% warning marker the whole time, so whenever you dipped below the threshold you'd take one drink, go back above it but just barely, and then a little while later dip below it again. I'll grant you that they need to adjust the messages to better communicate when you're just barely eating and drinking enough to not be in danger of passing out, but if you'd spend two minutes to wise up yourself, you could have learned all of what I just told you. Because it was figured out and posted everywhere less than two hours after the alpha was released.

What I do after spawning is find the nearest water well spigot, there's at least one in most towns, and then drink repeatedly from it. It takes 10 seconds and you'll never see any messages about being thirsty again if you drink the occasional soda as you find them lying around.
 
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27. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 20:21 HorrorScope
 
Question: Some of these MP Zombie Survival games you can setup your own server, right? So if you were just a PvE type player, you could do that, no?  
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26. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 20:00 Jerykk
 
Redmask wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 19:36:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 18:52:
The problem with DayZ type games is the non stop player griefing. Just takes everything that is supposed to be fun out of it.

The threat of humans is the whole reason to play, the zombies are trivialized once you adjust. You can't remove that tension from the gameplay, the potential for PvP and cooperation are why people play in the first place instead of just picking up a single player zombie game. Build up a community of people and kill the griefers or just learn the ins and outs so you know how to avoid them.

This. If you arbitrarily limit PvP, you ruin the very thing that makes DayZ and its ilk compelling.
 
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25. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 19:45 Frags4Fun
 
I finally got around to trying DayZ and after about 20 minutes I couldn't stand it any more (big fan of the mod though). They should rename it to DrinkZ. You can't go 5 freaking minutes without your character crying about needing a drink and continuing to bug you about it every minute or so. With a game that uses a true 24 hour clock, you would think that a character could go more than 5 minutes without needing a drink. Take a drink and not 5 minutes later, "I feel like taking a drink". I said screw this crap and quit the game. Maybe they'll wise up and fix it. And I don't care if it's early alpha, it's dumb that someone programmed it to be so frequent. It's not a bug, it's by design and needs to be changed.  
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24. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 19:36 Redmask
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 22, 2013, 18:52:
The problem with DayZ type games is the non stop player griefing. Just takes everything that is supposed to be fun out of it.

The threat of humans is the whole reason to play, the zombies are trivialized once you adjust. You can't remove that tension from the gameplay, the potential for PvP and cooperation are why people play in the first place instead of just picking up a single player zombie game. Build up a community of people and kill the griefers or just learn the ins and outs so you know how to avoid them.
 
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23. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 18:52 xXBatmanXx
 
The problem with DayZ type games is the non stop player griefing. Just takes everything that is supposed to be fun out of it.  
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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22. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 17:40 Muscular Beaver
 
This DayZ version looks very promising. No huge zombie spam anymore (where everyone can notice you from miles away), zombies are also very slow, the mechanics make much more sense now (you can rip shirts into rags to bandage yourself, you can take blood from someone else to transfer it to you - and die if its the wrong blood type, rotten food will make you sick, etc, etc.). But it looks extremely buggy still, even for an alpha. And thats what always made me not play this game for real. In normal ArmA 2 its bugs are negligible. They either dont happen a lot, or you simply respawn if you die from one. In DayZ they are a much, much bigger deal. It can seriously fuck your day up and make you lose everything you worked weeks for. As if bandits werent enough, your much bigger enemy are the bugs, even after such a long time of patching.

I hope for the best this time, but I have known Bohemia games for over a decade, and thus know its very likely that it will turn out as unplayable for me as the mod. At least the animations seem to be better than in ArmA 3, though, and it wasnt as dumbed down either, quite the contrary, it got much more complex than the mod, plus it still has authentic weapon names and models.

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2013, 17:46.
 
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21. Re: Steam Top 10 Dec 22, 2013, 17:24 dj LiTh
 
Only things i really want at this point that i dont have is Rimworld and WD: Season2. I think i'll wait on WD:S2 until its completely out, as for Rimworld maybe the same thing since its only in alpha. I'm thinking about grabbing Oblivion GOTY for 5$ since i dont seem to have the discs anymore and never had all the horse armor stuff to begin with..  
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