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Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay

A new Roberts Space Industries Letter from the Chairman has an update from Chris Roberts on the status of dogfighting in Star Citizen, RSI's crowd-funded space combat and exploration game (thanks InBlack). He explains that the overabundance of funding they received has allowed them to proceed faster than anticipated, which, counterintuitively means they are delaying the dogfighting module they intended to be one of the first elements of the game released to the public. He explains that they are holding this back to implement their own netcode, rather than using Crytek's, while expressing other concerns about doing things as they originally planned. "So rather than force the team to crunch through the holidays chasing something 'good enough'," Roberts writes, "I am going to make the tough choice to delay the dogfighting module for a couple of months to allow us to take our time and deliver something special." The post is very lengthy, so this is a relatively short excerpt:

Outside of having the dogfighting use the proper backend there is a lot of finesse and detail that needs to go in to get the dogfighting ready for the community’s consumption – The HUD, Damage states, various FX – these are all in progress and look very promising but in my personal opinion aren’t quite ready for prime time.

I feel that the Dogfighting module, especially with Star Citizen’s greatly increased profile, needs to be more polished than a typical “alpha”. There are a lot of eyes on the game, and more than a few people wanting us to fail. Because Dogfighting is the first module that will involve significant gameplay, it has to be good – I don’t feel that we will get a pass just because it is pre-pre alpha.

So we had two choices: either fork development and spend time building something that would involve throwing away work in order to meet the December deadline and deliver something that wouldn’t have the level of polish I’m happy with, or stay on course to build something that would lead directly into the finished game.

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116. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 16:59 Flatline
 
BadIronTree wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 06:23:
InBlack wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 04:27:
One more thing. If Roberts had said its coming "When its Done" instead of this "No Matter What" bullshit, I would be first in line to defend him. As it is, the snake oil smell is strong in that one....

People in the forums asked him to delay it and not to work on crysis multiplayer code that they will throw out after a few months ... Also they are moving to new big building this month that delay alot of things ... And Crytek also upgraded the game engine and thay had to remake alot of the stuff already done

Problem is that at this point I suspect he's sold around what, 400,000 copies of the game at a minimum assuming 100 bucks per person?

How many people are active on the forum? 5000? Even 10,000 on an insanely busy forum? And these are the people who are zealous enough to spend significant amounts of time on a forum for a game that still, over a year later, has no real in-game footage of gameplay going on.

So basing large production decisions on feedback from the forum is actually basing decisions off of 2-3% of your customer base.

That seems kind of shitty. It also seems like an out in case shit hits the fan. "Well we got overwhelming feedback on the forum!" Well, yeah, but you also have your own sales numbers, and you can see how big of the population that forum is.

Now I may be wrong. The forum may consist of 10,000 whales who dropped 10 grand each into the game. But I kind of doubt it.
 
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115. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 15:24 {PH}88fingers
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:20:
Verno wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:05:
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.
but but but he is just hating on it because he wants the game to succeed!!!

LOL too true
 
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114. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 13:43 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 12:39:
Beamer wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:50:
It makes perfect sense that you can be moving faster on a project as a whole but slower on a particular component.

Think of a chef making a 3 course meal. He can either concentrate on just the appetizer, in which case you get it sooner but then he has to start the next course from the beginning, or he can work all 3 courses at once, in which you get the appetizer later but get the completed meal sooner.

Well, in the middle of prepping that appetizer, someone dropped of some truffles and Comte, and he decided to incorporate it, so it took another 15 minutes. That's sort of what happened here to cause the delay. Since it's software, switch minutes to weeks.

Regardless of that. It's all true, but that's not the point I'm making and that's not what people were arguing. People were arguing that "we're moving faster, and that led to a delay" is "marketing speak" or whatever ignorant crap some people here always spew.

It isn't. It can be 100% true. Who cares why or how it happened, what matters is that it isn't "marketing speak."

Look at my history - I'm not bullish on this game. But I think "we're moving faster, but in order to do so we had to delay this piece" is a perfectly valid thing to say.
 
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113. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 13:19 NegaDeath
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 12:39:
Well, in the middle of prepping that appetizer, someone dropped of some truffles and Comte, and he decided to incorporate it, so it took another 15 minutes. That's sort of what happened here to cause the delay. Since it's software, switch minutes to weeks.

The chef promised it 15 minutes ago though. Clearly he's either not working on it and stole our money or it caught on fire in the back. And for that matter he's probably faking that all those donated ingredients came in. His restaurant isn't popular enough, there must be hidden investors secretly controlling the recipe from behind the scenes. His vegetable count is going up too quickly.

[/tinfoilhat]
 
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112. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 12:39 jdreyer
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:50:
It makes perfect sense that you can be moving faster on a project as a whole but slower on a particular component.

Think of a chef making a 3 course meal. He can either concentrate on just the appetizer, in which case you get it sooner but then he has to start the next course from the beginning, or he can work all 3 courses at once, in which you get the appetizer later but get the completed meal sooner.

Well, in the middle of prepping that appetizer, someone dropped of some truffles and Comte, and he decided to incorporate it, so it took another 15 minutes. That's sort of what happened here to cause the delay. Since it's software, switch minutes to weeks.
 
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"Microsoft is the absent minded parent of PC gaming" - Verno
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111. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 12:22 Slinkycatz
 
Nothing new from InBlack.

I welcome criticism when it makes sense. I want to debate things that make sense.

It is when people INSIST on seeing things with the WRONG context in order to be able to make their FLAWED point that I find them annoying.

When I show them that they are using the wrong context which makes their "point" flawed, they explode in anger. How dare I point out the facts!

If I was wrong in my facts, then correct my facts and we can debate from there. When you have no facts to counter with, I'm going to ignore your lame sarcastic comments.
 
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110. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 11:01 InBlack
 
ItBurn wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:45:
InBlack wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:37:
Verno wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:05:
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.

I dont have a hateboner (lol) for any game. I do however hate double standards, hypocrites and charlatans.

Say that CR released the dogfighting module like he promised he would. Everyone would be clapping themselves on the back and going "I told you so InBlack see, he delivered!"...and I would have shut the fuck up about Star Citizen, forever.

A month or so ago I was trying to get a point accross that with the feature creep and the huge bites that CR and Co. were taking there was no way in hell that they were going to release the dogfighting module on time. A few poeple here started calling me names and swearing at me, and for what? Was I being unreasonable? Am I being unreasonable now?

These very same people are now saying exactly what I was saying a month ago and when I call them out for that I get called a hater. I guess I should just drop it, as there is no use in arguing with fanatics...

I called you a hater because that's what I saw. I wasn't one of the people who said this wouldn't be delayed. I had no doubt it would be delayed. They didn't delay the hangar though, so you know, it's not like they failed at everything... And this is not a failure like others said, it's just a normal delay. This kind of crap happens ALL the time in normal game projects, but is hidden from us. It would be stupid and basically insane if they just stuck to their initial plan and never swayed from it in order to do things better/differently or to go around problems they didn't anticipate. Software development is an incremental process.

I understand all that, but at this moment who's word do we have that all of this is as you said, a normal and well intentioned delay so that they might deliver a better product further down the road? We have Chris Robert's word. We also had his word that this module will come before the end of the year "No matter What".
 
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109. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:54 Verno
 
Prez wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:36:
Ahh, I get it. The "negative reinforcement" motivational technique! Or would that be de-motivational?

The beatings will continue until morale improves!
 
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108. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:50 Beamer
 
It makes perfect sense that you can be moving faster on a project as a whole but slower on a particular component.

Think of a chef making a 3 course meal. He can either concentrate on just the appetizer, in which case you get it sooner but then he has to start the next course from the beginning, or he can work all 3 courses at once, in which you get the appetizer later but get the completed meal sooner.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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107. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:45 ItBurn
 
InBlack wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:37:
Verno wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:05:
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.

I dont have a hateboner (lol) for any game. I do however hate double standards, hypocrites and charlatans.

Say that CR released the dogfighting module like he promised he would. Everyone would be clapping themselves on the back and going "I told you so InBlack see, he delivered!"...and I would have shut the fuck up about Star Citizen, forever.

A month or so ago I was trying to get a point accross that with the feature creep and the huge bites that CR and Co. were taking there was no way in hell that they were going to release the dogfighting module on time. A few poeple here started calling me names and swearing at me, and for what? Was I being unreasonable? Am I being unreasonable now?

These very same people are now saying exactly what I was saying a month ago and when I call them out for that I get called a hater. I guess I should just drop it, as there is no use in arguing with fanatics...

I called you a hater because that's what I saw. I wasn't one of the people who said this wouldn't be delayed. I had no doubt it would be delayed. They didn't delay the hangar though, so you know, it's not like they failed at everything... And this is not a failure like others said, it's just a normal delay. This kind of crap happens ALL the time in normal game projects, but is hidden from us. It would be stupid and basically insane if they just stuck to their initial plan and never swayed from it in order to do things better/differently or to go around problems they didn't anticipate. Software development is an incremental process.
 
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106. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:37 InBlack
 
Verno wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:05:
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.

I dont have a hateboner (lol) for any game. I do however hate double standards, hypocrites and charlatans.

Say that CR released the dogfighting module like he promised he would. Everyone would be clapping themselves on the back and going "I told you so InBlack see, he delivered!"...and I would have shut the fuck up about Star Citizen, forever.

A month or so ago I was trying to get a point accross that with the feature creep and the huge bites that CR and Co. were taking there was no way in hell that they were going to release the dogfighting module on time. A few poeple here started calling me names and swearing at me, and for what? Was I being unreasonable? Am I being unreasonable now?

These very same people are now saying exactly what I was saying a month ago and when I call them out for that I get called a hater. I guess I should just drop it, as there is no use in arguing with fanatics...
 
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105. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:36 Prez
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:20:
Verno wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:05:
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.
but but but he is just hating on it because he wants the game to succeed!!!

Ahh, I get it. The "negative reinforcement" motivational technique! Or would that be de-motivational?
 
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104. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:20 SpectralMeat
 
Verno wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 10:05:
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.
but but but he is just hating on it because he wants the game to succeed!!!
 
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103. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 10:05 Verno
 
He's right though, you do seem to have an absurd hateboner for this game. I don't get the urgency either, if they rush it's just going to be a shitshow and everyone will say RAHHHH TOLD U SO. A delay is perfectly reasonable in the context and this stuff happens in the industry all the time, this isn't the 10th delay or something silly. For the record I have $0.00 invested in this game before someone says I'm trying to excuse Chris Roberts and co.  
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Watching: The Fall, The Walking Dead, Leon
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102. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 09:56 InBlack
 
ItBurn wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 09:48:
InBlack wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 03:56:
Prez wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 00:55:
EDIT: And I think Blue is right; the way the say they are progressing faster and are delaying the earliest module in the same post is a bit jarring. While both are separate and unrelated, including both in the same post creates a bit of irony at least.

Exactly. Doublespeak. Lol. Im also amazed by how the fanbois defend this delay as justified, perfectly justified and completely expected. Its fucking doublethink is what it is. If you dont know what doublespeak or doublethink is, I feel sorry for you...

Fanboys? Doublespeak? I guess that there's such a thing as hateboys and you're doubly one of them.

George Orwell 1984.
 
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101. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 09:48 ItBurn
 
InBlack wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 03:56:
Prez wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 00:55:
EDIT: And I think Blue is right; the way the say they are progressing faster and are delaying the earliest module in the same post is a bit jarring. While both are separate and unrelated, including both in the same post creates a bit of irony at least.

Exactly. Doublespeak. Lol. Im also amazed by how the fanbois defend this delay as justified, perfectly justified and completely expected. Its fucking doublethink is what it is. If you dont know what doublespeak or doublethink is, I feel sorry for you...

Fanboys? Doublespeak? I guess that there's such a thing as hateboys and you're doubly one of them.
 
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100. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 06:23 BadIronTree
 
InBlack wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 04:27:
One more thing. If Roberts had said its coming "When its Done" instead of this "No Matter What" bullshit, I would be first in line to defend him. As it is, the snake oil smell is strong in that one....

People in the forums asked him to delay it and not to work on crysis multiplayer code that they will throw out after a few months ... Also they are moving to new big building this month that delay alot of things ... And Crytek also upgraded the game engine and thay had to remake alot of the stuff already done
 
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99. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 04:27 InBlack
 
One more thing. If Roberts had said its coming "When its Done" instead of this "No Matter What" bullshit, I would be first in line to defend him. As it is, the snake oil smell is strong in that one....  
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98. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 03:56 InBlack
 
Prez wrote on Dec 18, 2013, 00:55:
EDIT: And I think Blue is right; the way the say they are progressing faster and are delaying the earliest module in the same post is a bit jarring. While both are separate and unrelated, including both in the same post creates a bit of irony at least.

Exactly. Doublespeak. Lol. Im also amazed by how the fanbois defend this delay as justified, perfectly justified and completely expected. Its fucking doublethink is what it is. If you dont know what doublespeak or doublethink is, I feel sorry for you...
 
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97. Re: Star Citizen Dogfighting Module Delay Dec 18, 2013, 03:56 Flatline
 
While I'm not surprised, I am a little deflated.

I'm kind of amused though that Squadron 42 and the dogfighting module are being developed by 2 entirely different dev companies.

I mean... isn't that what squadron 42 is supposed to be? Dogfighting?

I'm still waiting for it to get dropped/culled out to focus on multiplayer.

I'm also waiting for the milestone that unlocks the space flight sim game inside Star Citizen. Like a full version of Freelancer playable *inside* your cockpit, at any time, in real time, where you can hit pause and peel off and go do something in-universe.

Most Kickstarters can get away with one real good delay. And usually you have to be honest about the rest of the delays that delay will cost. After that community good will goes sour fast.

So we'll see. Maybe the dogfighting module will kick our asses so hard it won't matter.
 
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