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Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting

The Kickstarter for Torment: Tides of Numenera sees inXile entertainment soliciting backers to vote on how combat will be handled in their upcoming role-playing game (thanks nin via Polygon). Here's the handy summary:

TL;DR: Weigh in on Turn-Based vs. Real-Time with Pause (or declare your indifference). Voting will close in December.

Over the last couple weeks, we’ve been reading all of your commentary and ideas regarding combat. Many good points and suggestions, and mostly civil discourse. Thanks to all who have engaged in the discussion so far!

And now... It is time! Only backers can place a vote. (If you haven’t already and you’d like your voice heard, please register with us to gain access to the backer-only UserVoice forum.) Feel free to also continue to submit comments and ideas to the combat discussion forum. Please remember that this vote is advisory only. Above all, please remember that our goal is to provide the best possible experience for the game, and if the final decision is not your preferred choice, we ask you trust our ability to deliver a solid game.

For more context about what this is about, please see Update 24, where we describe what Turn-Based and Real-Time with Pause might each mean for Torment. We’ll close the voting in December.

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69 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 3.
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29. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 16:08 Scottish Martial Arts
 
dj LiTh wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:37:
They should honestly have both as an option to the player.

I'm guessing you never played Arcanum? Tandem real-time/turn-based combat systems have a TERRIBLE record. Someone else mentioned Fallout: Tactics yet that game's "continuous turn-based" mode was just about unplayable. Trying to create a combat system with two separate modes based on entirely separate design paradigms is a lot like creating an OS with two different modes based on entirely different UI approaches -- you get a schizophrenic mess where the competing requirements of one mode detract from the other, and vice-versa.
 
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28. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 16:06 Zyrxil
 
RTwP vs TB- the ultimate RPG geek clash. Suck it, RT losers! Combat was easily the worst part of Infinity Engine and Electron Engine games. Temple of Elemental Evil combat engine should be the ideal to strive for.

dj LiTh wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:37:
They should honestly have both as an option to the player.
Oh yeah, cause that worked out great for Arcanum. Unless you're creating two completely different combat systems, all with its own abilities, then having the option for both will never result in combat that is even remotely balanced or well-designed.
 
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27. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 14:38 Creston
 
Orogogus wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 14:30:
It's not sarcastic. I feel like U7 is where this trend started. And while it took time to put that equipment together, the rest still constituted about two thirds of the game, plus the entire expansion pack. And my approach wasn't any different before I got endgame equipment either. I think I steamrolled every fight from randomized mooks to wizards to dragons by just pressing the dogpile button, occasionally casting spells just to see what they do.

Alright, my bad, I thought you were being sarcastic. It might have been U7 that started it, but I think you're being slightly unfair towards the combat difficulty in the early parts. It's true that you really couldn't do much yourself in combat since it moved so quickly, but if you went exploring and came up against some Scary-Ass-Monsters(tm), you'd either get your ass handed to you, or at least some of your companions would wind up as bloody quartered rumps lying amidst a tangle of severed limbs.
 
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26. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 14:30 Orogogus
 
Creston wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 14:19:
Orogogus wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:49:
Ah, the Ultima VII school of combat. Hit the combat mode button, watch Juggernaut Hammers and Firedoom staff bolts go flying and hand-to-hand guys charging in, and after everything's stopped moving pick up the loot and get back to the game.

I'm assuming this is meant as a sarcastic reply, so I'd like to point out that you had to slog through quite a few hours of pretty difficult combat in U7 before you finally were able to put on that magical armor and wield that Hoe of Destruction. You'd kind of earned your "turn it on and watch shit fly" ability by that point.

It's not sarcastic. I feel like U7 is where this trend started. And while it took time to put that equipment together, the rest still constituted about two thirds of the game, plus the entire expansion pack. And my approach wasn't any different before I got endgame equipment either. I think I steamrolled every fight from randomized mooks to wizards to dragons by just pressing the dogpile button, occasionally casting spells just to see what they do.
 
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25. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 14:19 Creston
 
Orogogus wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:49:
Ah, the Ultima VII school of combat. Hit the combat mode button, watch Juggernaut Hammers and Firedoom staff bolts go flying and hand-to-hand guys charging in, and after everything's stopped moving pick up the loot and get back to the game.

I'm assuming this is meant as a sarcastic reply, so I'd like to point out that you had to slog through quite a few hours of pretty difficult combat in U7 before you finally were able to put on that magical armor and wield that Hoe of Destruction. You'd kind of earned your "turn it on and watch shit fly" ability by that point.
 
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24. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 14:16 Optional Nickname!
 
Remember, Real-Time with Pause fans...vote early and often.  
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23. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:49 Orogogus
 
Creston wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:46:
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:16:
Creston wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 12:20:
I dunno, Torment seemed to run fine with real-time with pause. I like turn based in a more strategic game like Wasteland 2, but in Torment, where combat isn't the main focus, I'd rather just get on with it and get it moving.

Yeah but NO ONE speaks kindly of PST's combat.

Funny, I thought I just did.

Combat was so inconsequential in Torment that I was fine with just turning it on and watching my guys wade through the enemies in 10 seconds. I mean, when you're playing a character who literally CANNOT DIE, the entire raison d^etre for combat kinda goes out the window anyway. (Something that Prey never understood, apparently.)

Ah, the Ultima VII school of combat. Hit the combat mode button, watch Juggernaut Hammers and Firedoom staff bolts go flying and hand-to-hand guys charging in, and after everything's stopped moving pick up the loot and get back to the game.
 
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22. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:46 Creston
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:16:
Creston wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 12:20:
I dunno, Torment seemed to run fine with real-time with pause. I like turn based in a more strategic game like Wasteland 2, but in Torment, where combat isn't the main focus, I'd rather just get on with it and get it moving.

Yeah but NO ONE speaks kindly of PST's combat.

Funny, I thought I just did.

Combat was so inconsequential in Torment that I was fine with just turning it on and watching my guys wade through the enemies in 10 seconds. I mean, when you're playing a character who literally CANNOT DIE, the entire raison d^etre for combat kinda goes out the window anyway. (Something that Prey never understood, apparently.)

I'd be fine if it was turn-based, and I'm happy that Wasteland 2 will be, but for Torment I just don't really care.

Or is it to build encounters where combat isn't the default and highly encouraged solution?

I would assume that they will do that, yeah.
 
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21. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:43 Task
 
Both.

Just the same as I want choices for combat styles in the new Fallout games (but don't get them, cuz its Dude Bro Todd Howard at the Beth wheel).
 
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20. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:37 dj LiTh
 
They should honestly have both as an option to the player.  
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19. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:36 Orogogus
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:19:
At this point we have a whole generation of gamers that doesn't know any better -- try convincing your average Dragon Age fan to install DosBox and play Pool of Radiance -- so it's awful hard to break through the background aversion to turn-based as "slow, boring, and not immersive."

I love the turn-based combat in the Gold Box games, and Pool of Radiance was probably the best of them, but the journal lookups really ruin the experience. I can't in good conscience recommend it to people for that reason alone; it's like asking someone to put up with Commodore 64 load times.
 
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18. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:19 Scottish Martial Arts
 
vrok wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 13:07:
RTwP is and always has been a complete disaster. TB is the only way to go for a proper party-based RPG.

QFT. You can still salvage a decent game out of RTwP, but the combat is invariably much weaker than it could have been. Couple that with cRPG encounter designers who never seem to have played an RPG -- "I know we'll make a cave, and this cave will be filled trolls, just trolls." -- and the result is games with the potential for rich combat but actually delivering something pretty weak. At this point we have a whole generation of gamers that doesn't know any better -- try convincing your average Dragon Age fan to install DosBox and play Pool of Radiance -- so it's awful hard to break through the background aversion to turn-based as "slow, boring, and not immersive."
 
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17. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:16 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Creston wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 12:20:
I dunno, Torment seemed to run fine with real-time with pause. I like turn based in a more strategic game like Wasteland 2, but in Torment, where combat isn't the main focus, I'd rather just get on with it and get it moving.

Yeah but NO ONE speaks kindly of PST's combat. Invariably it's "great game but terrible combat." Real-time with pause is an abortion born of the era in which RTSs were taking off, and suddenly turn-based was "old", "outdated", and "the produce of technological limitations". Nevermind that real-time systems, even RTwP systems, have dramatically fewer tactical options lest the user be overwhelmed with complexity, and that even with pause functionality, grafting turn-based rulesets onto a real-time combat systems plays hell with balancing and how things are "supposed" to work. Likewise, the people who do speak so fondly of IE game combat, never seem to have played a Goldbox game. I understand the notion of wanting to deemphasize combat, but if that's the case is the answer to really build a garbage and trivial combat system? Or is it to build encounters where combat isn't the default and highly encouraged solution?
 
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16. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:14 HorrorScope
 
Mad Max RW wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 10:50:
Voted for turn-based and it is wisely in the lead as of this post.

Great to hear. And yes I am passionate on this one. lol
 
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15. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:13 HorrorScope
 
Suppa7 wrote on Nov 22, 2013, 10:30:
I could care less, bioware RPG's always had poor combat systems. Regardless if they go with turn based on RTWP. They always sucked at gameplay. The Infinity engine RPG's were more visual novels than games. BG1+2, PS:T, and NWN all sucked donkey balls in terms of combat. They were the prelude to autocombat everywhere in MMO's and I despise passive watch-a-thon non gameplay based games.

I agree, they never had a true turn-based mechanic. Just a cluster fuck of live into pause and then try to figure out who can put in a new order this pause and those who can't as they are still playing out their orders. Each round, each fight, all game long you deal with this mess.

This comment was edited on Nov 22, 2013, 16:16.
 
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14. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:12 HorrorScope
 
Between fights most likely real-time.

But when in combat, turn based and imo, it's not even close. There are games you can play with pause based each round, but it is sloppy sloppy sloppy. Effects/animations caught mid-process when using pause based.

But the #1 reason why pause sucks is that you have to balance the game for a player who uses no pause at all and a person that pauses every round, it's two ends. The person playing live has a much harder game, while the person who pauses each time has a very simple game now because it has to be balanced to be able to beat it all live action. To me it was a very bad decision and why I don't hold the classics BG, NWN, Drakensang's as highly as others, because it's messy and unbalanced.

Turn based you know exactly how everyone is playing, it is clean, all animations are done when the order is given. You know the order of attack. It's better. Don't fuck this up BACKERS!

This comment was edited on Nov 22, 2013, 16:18.
 
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13. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 13:07 vrok
 
RTwP is and always has been a complete disaster. TB is the only way to go for a proper party-based RPG.  
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12. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 12:59 Cutter
 
So long as you can adjust the speed in TBC that's the way to go. Always hated mashing the spacebar on and off with RTP.
 
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"Bye weeks? Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye weeks, and now he's dead… Well, maybe they're a good thing." - Moe
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11. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 12:20 Creston
 
I dunno, Torment seemed to run fine with real-time with pause. I like turn based in a more strategic game like Wasteland 2, but in Torment, where combat isn't the main focus, I'd rather just get on with it and get it moving.  
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10. Re: Torment: Tides of Numenera Combat Voting Nov 22, 2013, 11:51 avianflu
 
I am fine with either as long as the engine does not rely on "cool-down timers"  
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