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139. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 22:18 HorrorScope
 
Redmask wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 22:04:
HorrorScope wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 21:28:
What do you want me to do? He demanded links. But this isn't in question, these companies have gone in front of congress to state what they have done, they feel it 100% legal. I'm not question legal or illegal, just things that bleed the economy. This is totally happening. Companies are trying to get a one time 5% tax rate to bring the money into the country where it belongs.

Oh no you misunderstand, I was referring to him

LOL you got me twice...

Not in reference to this... but others talking about the shutdown:

Interesting, isn't it, that the issue on which the historic Republican party, the party of Lincoln and Roosevelt and Eisenhower, chooses to stand or fall is not stopping illegal war, or stopping unconstitutional drone killings, or stopping mass murder, or stopping the impunity of Wall Street banks, or stopping the flow of jobs out of the country, or stopping the flow of vastly inferior and dangerous products into the country, or stopping the economic war on the middle class, or stopping the abandonment of the poor, or stopping the big business entitlements, subsidies and tax dodges that dwarf any and all social programs, or stopping the tens of thousands of annual shooting deaths, or stopping the bankruptcy of cities, or stopping hunger and ignorance... no, they put the entire force of their moral and spiritual and political will behind stopping something even more heinous and dreaded and apocalyptic - a very watered-down form of healthcare for almost everybody, a healthcare system that they themselves designed at the Heritage Foundation.

-------------------
"Here in the UK, even right wing politicians accept that access to basic health care for all people is an inherent part of living in a civilised society rather than living amongst a group of individuals whose only priority is themselves. We find it astonishing that in the 21st century, a bunch of Republican dinosaurs could threaten to damage their own economy and that of other countries, simply because they despise their fellow Americans on low incomes so much that they would deny them the right to access affordable health care. May God save America because the GOP certainly isn't going to do so."

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 2013, 22:28.
 
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138. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 22:04 Redmask
 
HorrorScope wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 21:28:
What do you want me to do? He demanded links. But this isn't in question, these companies have gone in front of congress to state what they have done, they feel it 100% legal. I'm not question legal or illegal, just things that bleed the economy. This is totally happening. Companies are trying to get a one time 5% tax rate to bring the money into the country where it belongs.

Oh no you misunderstand, I was referring to him
 
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137. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 21:55 HorrorScope
 
Mad Max RW wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 21:37:
I was making a comment on that earlier chucklefuck's post about how nobody opposing the liberal viewpoint posted any links.

Have you boycotted those evil corporations yet? Did you throw out your computer and cell phone in protest? Or do you think linking to it and pretending to be offended on a video game website will finally get that hope and change started?

How do you feel about Obama giving corporations a 1 year pass on the Obamacare mandate while individuals are left with their thumbs in their ass?

Didn't catch who you were addressing.

Ok so fine go extreme, because they are bleeding workers at this point, we now should throw everything out they make, quit them etc. How about we just want our wages and livelihoods to go slightly forward, instead of cutbacks since the mid 2000's. It isn't all or nothing, it's balancing everything out. They are putting too many in bunker mode, which means they don't buy and consume and it creates further issues.

Affordable health care act, the reason for the delay is that corporations do deal in thousands of employees and the organization of such things take time. Where as a individual can handle themselves solely as it isn't complex at level. Next question.

Yes I'm hoping this is the post that starts the calling... lol, why do you post such drivel like that?
 
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136. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 21:37 Mad Max RW
 
HorrorScope wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:56:
Mad Max RW wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:39:
I demand links and the names of those billionaires with concrete evidence backing up everything you just said.

Love how you demand things, that is how conservatives work, so punishing in how they reason and look at things. It's black and white... even though we live in a world a color.

I was making a comment on that earlier chucklefuck's post about how nobody opposing the liberal viewpoint posted any links.

Have you boycotted those evil corporations yet? Did you throw out your computer and cell phone in protest? Or do you think linking to it and pretending to be offended on a video game website will finally get that hope and change started?

How do you feel about Obama giving corporations a 1 year pass on the Obamacare mandate while individuals are left with their thumbs in their ass?
 
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135. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 21:28 HorrorScope
 
Redmask wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 21:17:
Anyone can find a link to support any position on the internet, that's what so bad and great about it.

What do you want me to do? He demanded links. But this isn't in question, these companies have gone in front of congress to state what they have done, they feel it 100% legal. I'm not question legal or illegal, just things that bleed the economy. This is totally happening. Companies are trying to get a one time 5% tax rate to bring the money into the country where it belongs.
 
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134. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 21:17 Redmask
 
Anyone can find a link to support any position on the internet, that's what so bad and great about it.  
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133. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 20:56 HorrorScope
 
Mad Max RW wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:39:
I demand links and the names of those billionaires with concrete evidence backing up everything you just said.

Love how you demand things, that is how conservatives work, so punishing in how they reason and look at things. It's black and white... even though we live in a world a color.

But sure... Google... Corporate Tax Avoidance.

16 Corps that pay next to nothing... 16 Big Ones

(By the way I work for a Fortune 500, our CEO states he pays the 35% tax rate and it is too high, but the bottom line for the company when all the writeoffs are done, under 3%, they never say that in public, however it's right there in numbers on their quarterlies. All about deflection.)

Here's Apple (all kinds of articles on this) Apple

How it can affect: Affects

There are literately 1000's of related articles and just as many companies using these loopholes.

But I'd go as far to say most multinational corporations are doing this. That is why Iceland, Ireland etc boom. That is why Californian's corporate in NV. Tax avoidance. I'll also legitimize it to this point, since many do it, others have to follow to stay competitive. Loopholes have to be closed to get those dollars that are planned back into the system to circulate money and create tax revenue cities and states desperately need. Closing the loopholes puts everybody back on the same plan, so they stay competitive.

Apple has billions of unpaid taxes as they keep the money off-shore with shell corporations. You ever think if that money was collected the debt would be smaller, cities wouldn't be going bankrupt etc. It's like a master NWO order plan we are fighting here. The corps are trying to become more powerful than the gov't so they can shoot down labor laws and make the workforce mimic China. That imo is what we are fighting here. That is why we didn't and now why we shouldn't have ever gone in bed with China, we can't compete with near slave wages and if we did... we'd have to be working at slave wage. So be a middle class person support billionaires working the plan most likely against you. While not protecting your true reality of middle class Joe wanting a fair but far from exuberant lifestyle.

Which goes back to one of my core beliefs. More doing better is better than less. Better doesn't mean poor or rich, it means house, heat, food, transportation and a yearly family trip.

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 2013, 21:06.
 
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132. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 20:40 Redmask
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:00:
You also seriously can't say "Hey I'm a fiscal conservative!" while in the same breath advocating bigger government and more government spending. Does not compute.

Yes actually you can. You can be a fiscal conservative and believe that some areas of government need to be larger while others need to be smaller because not all things are created equal. Sorry your brain can't process such a simple concept.

Who knows what Obama could have done if there wasn't gridlock. Who knows what any president could have done due to gridlock, yet another thing both parties have had to face usually with sad results. It's hard to judge what any president truly is when both sides won't work together.

The sad part is that this sort of political gridlock will be met with the same in return if we ever manage to finagle our way back into office, as doubtful as that is considering how toxic the republican brand is becoming.
 
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131. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 20:39 Mad Max RW
 
HorrorScope wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:34:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:00:
You say this as if we don't want the same thing. I just don't want to pay for everyone else.

Following Obama's policies you're going to shrink the middle class not grow it. We're already heading there now.

You also seriously can't say "Hey I'm a fiscal conservative!" while in the same breath advocating bigger government and more government spending. Does not compute.

Yes this is always the hang up with middle class republicans. They are so damned concerned about poor people who could do better for themselves, that they are getting away with something they shouldn't, it isn't always poor people getting away with something either. I'll assume there is a large percentage of people that get beni's that really need them.

But on the other end you have billionaires who are getting away with even more that benefit only a few at the detriment of many. I'll call this a wash just to make the math easier to figure out. Public Welfare = Corporate Welfare. Some of it is legit and some of it bleeds the economy like a vampire.

Obama is shrinking the middle class? Hardly, corporations laying off, using PT loopholes and taking benis and pay away is shrinking the middle class. As their bottom lines grow, they are doing anything but giving that gain back to the worker (as if it isn't a two way street to sell said products), instead they add to the layoff numbers.

Fiscal Conservative to me means spending within your means. Yes you can look to record high debt now (and we know how the biggest chunk in 2008 happened). But we've seen both parties have huge reductions in said debt and huge gains to such debt, it isn't all about which party dictates exactly how debt is grown or reduced. Markets and timing have more to do with that than party politics.

Who knows what Obama could have done if there wasn't gridlock. Who knows what any president could have done due to gridlock, yet another thing both parties have had to face usually with sad results. It's hard to judge what any president truly is when both sides won't work together.

As you spread fear that if the Dems had full control, they'd have unlimited kickbacks to the poor and rising taxes to a point it all explodes. I'll sell fear that if the repubs had full control they would further reduce benis, pay, protections to middle class worker, getting us more inline with China.


I demand links and the names of those billionaires with concrete evidence backing up everything you just said.
 
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130. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 20:34 HorrorScope
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 20:00:
You say this as if we don't want the same thing. I just don't want to pay for everyone else.

Following Obama's policies you're going to shrink the middle class not grow it. We're already heading there now.

You also seriously can't say "Hey I'm a fiscal conservative!" while in the same breath advocating bigger government and more government spending. Does not compute.

Yes this is always the hang up with middle class republicans. They are so damned concerned about poor people who could do better for themselves, that they are getting away with something they shouldn't, it isn't always poor people getting away with something either. I'll assume there is a large percentage of people that get beni's that really need them.

But on the other end you have billionaires who are getting away with even more that benefit only a few at the detriment of many. I'll call this a wash just to make the math easier to figure out. Public Welfare = Corporate Welfare. Some of it is legit and some of it bleeds the economy like a vampire.

Obama is shrinking the middle class? Hardly, corporations laying off, using PT loopholes and taking benis and pay away is shrinking the middle class. As their bottom lines grow, they are doing anything but giving that gain back to the worker (as if it isn't a two way street to sell said products), instead they add to the layoff numbers. I accepted a trickle down method, but it is now a vacuum sucking meager dollars back up.

Fiscal Conservative to me means spending within your means. Yes you can look to record high debt now (and we know how the biggest chunk in 2008 happened). But we've seen both parties have huge reductions in said debt and huge gains to such debt. There is a lot more in play than Party X means more debt and Party Y means less debt. It is far from that black and white. Markets and technological timing have more to do with debt gains and losses than party politics.

Who knows what Obama could have done if there wasn't gridlock. Who knows what any president could have done due to gridlock, yet another thing both parties have had to face usually with sad results. It's hard to judge what any president truly is when both sides won't work together.

As you spread fear that if the Dems had full control, they'd have unlimited kickbacks to the poor and rising taxes to a point it all explodes. I'll sell fear that if the repubs had full control they would further reduce benis, pay, protections to middle class worker, getting us more inline with China.

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 2013, 20:40.
 
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129. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 20:28 Mad Max RW
 
An example reminding people of the UK's lovely healthcare system at work: Former NHS director dies after operation is cancelled four times at her own hospital

And for some fun current events for the lazy liberals too stupid or stubborn to turn their gaze from MSNBC for one minute of their lives:

How Obamacare's Exchanges Turned Into A 'Third World Experience'

New York Times Public Editor Admits Paper Has Liberal Bias

Health insurance premiums for young people will rise in all 50 states under Obamacare, with an average increase of 260 percent

Kathleen Sebelius: Obamacare Implementation May Cause Some Health Care Costs To Rise

Health Insurers Raise Some Rates by Double Digits

Exchanges Will Raise U.S. Health-Care Costs

Obamacare Is a Raw Deal for Millennials

And there's tons more if you take the time and read. I wonder how many of you will bother. Or will you just follow the predictable tactic of burying your heads in the sand and dismiss everything that might shake your house of cards called liberalism? I bet you will. Just turn on the Daily Show for laughs or MSNBC and watch proven racists like Al Sharpton and Chris Matthews spoon feed more bullshit. If that's what helps you sleep at night while living in debt because you were too lazy to read and plan ahead for what is a disaster.

Did anyone here who supports Obamacare try to sign up for it yet? You better get to it, then, because without tens of millions of young healthy people joining in the next few months the whole thing will collapse from a lack of funds. After more than $1.6 trillion they still don't have enough to keep this monster going. Come on guys! Show your support! Or are you racist?
 
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128. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 20:00 RollinThundr
 
HorrorScope wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 18:25:
Verno wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 08:56:
Uh, maybe because they're not inherently liberal? You have this strange notion that anyone who doesn't agree with your views or whatever preconceived notions you have latched on to is somehow liberal. You use the word as if its an insult but there is a lot of value in liberalism, you should try studying it for a change instead of being such a blockhead. I consider myself a fiscal conservative (I am using labels you need to identify with) on many issues but I also hold a lot of liberal views. Does that make me a liberal because I believe in a woman's right to choose but also believe that the free market can do a better job than government can in many (but not all) areas?

You should really try expanding your mind a bit beyond the labels, most people don't fit into neat categories.

I don't know what the argument in full is over, but in general I agree with this. I'm fiscal conservative, however I'm very liberal to because to me it's more humane. One includes the other wants everyone to be a borg. But natural law totally outweighs human control and states we are not borgs, we are individuals.

I am one that really young was liberal, but soon became conservative, but now more liberal again. I feel much more at peace with myself than ever and instead of looking sternly at things (it must be done this way!!!), I embrace differences. Where I once was a homophobe I am no longer and I know I'm right because of that. So I feel I'm more expanded than the tired path of liberal to conservative and become closed minded until the grave. I plan to always keep an open mind and change it at will, not set myself in stone and forget about it, life is much more dynamic than that.

I say no war better than war.
I say more people prospering is better than fewer.
I say more people healthy is better than less.
I say having responsibilities to pay the bills is good.
I say those that can should, those that really can't, show grace, it could be you at any time.
I say I don't have negative feelings at all to people that are gay.
I say I'm cool with skin color matters not. Not say it publicly because it's sly and do the opposite when no one is looking.

So that goes back and forth some but favors one over the other, one side is so much more open and inclusive that to me it's hard to argue against.

A twist is the strength of the right is in the bible belt, but I'm pretty sure if their Jesus came down to Earth and spoke... he'd favor the human condition over the monetary one, in a no-brainer. He'd favor openness and understanding over "you must do it this way". In fact I would say conservatism is the Old Testament and Liberalism is the New Testament. However all modern Christianity is all about the New Testament which the bible belt thumps to. Reasoning must be lacking there or something... How do they not see this? Jesus teachings is much much more liberal that conservative.

You say this as if we don't want the same thing. I just don't want to pay for everyone else. Following Obama's policies you're going to shrink the middle class not grow it. We're already heading there now.

What you call "progress" is anything but. Look at the UK right now. That's where we're headed, at least we still have guns for now.

You also seriously can't say "Hey I'm a fiscal conservative!" while in the same breath advocating bigger government and more government spending. Does not compute.
 
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127. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 19:21 HorrorScope
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 16:27:
Everyone has coverage already, you can't be turned away that's just not how it works in the US as it is even pre obamacare. So let's do some math. We were already paying for these people before, now we're going to still be paying for them while our rates go up even more.

Why are our rates going up? Are they going up? I don't see the correlation with those with insurance already and it going up over the Affordable Health Care Act.
 
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126. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 18:25 HorrorScope
 
Verno wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 08:56:
Uh, maybe because they're not inherently liberal? You have this strange notion that anyone who doesn't agree with your views or whatever preconceived notions you have latched on to is somehow liberal. You use the word as if its an insult but there is a lot of value in liberalism, you should try studying it for a change instead of being such a blockhead. I consider myself a fiscal conservative (I am using labels you need to identify with) on many issues but I also hold a lot of liberal views. Does that make me a liberal because I believe in a woman's right to choose but also believe that the free market can do a better job than government can in many (but not all) areas?

You should really try expanding your mind a bit beyond the labels, most people don't fit into neat categories.

I don't know what the argument in full is over, but in general I agree with this. I'm fiscal conservative, however I'm very liberal to because to me it's more humane. One includes the other wants everyone to be a borg. But natural law totally outweighs human control and states we are not borgs, we are individuals.

I am one that really young was liberal, but soon became conservative, but now more liberal again. I feel much more at peace with myself than ever and instead of looking sternly at things (it must be done this way!!!), I embrace differences. Where I once was a homophobe I am no longer and I know I'm right because of that. So I feel I'm more expanded than the tired path of liberal to conservative and become closed minded until the grave. I plan to always keep an open mind and change it at will, not set myself in stone and forget about it, life is much more dynamic than that.

I say no war better than war.
I say more people prospering is better than fewer.
I say more people healthy is better than less.
I say having responsibilities to pay the bills is good.
I say those that can should, those that really can't, show grace, it could be you at any time.
I say I don't have negative feelings at all to people that are gay.
I say I'm cool with skin color matters not. Not say it publicly because it's sly and do the opposite when no one is looking.

So that goes back and forth some but favors one over the other, one side is so much more open and inclusive that to me it's hard to argue against.

A twist is the strength of the right is in the bible belt, but I'm pretty sure if their Jesus came down to Earth and spoke... he'd favor the human condition over the monetary one, in a no-brainer. He'd favor openness and understanding over "you must do it this way". In fact I would say conservatism is the Old Testament and Liberalism is the New Testament. However all modern Christianity is all about the New Testament which the bible belt thumps to. Reasoning must be lacking there or something... How do they not see this? Jesus teachings is much much more liberal that conservative.

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 2013, 18:33.
 
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125. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 17:48 Verno
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 16:27:
Oh ffs it's not going to be at all harder to fake anything. And I'm sure the bill has been manufactured in a way to make that so.

You're the one talking about accountability being so important to you yet you discard an easy avenue toward it with paranoia.

I get that abortions in the long run put less strain on the economy, however you're still taking a life and I'm sorry if I disagree that abortions do happen out of convenience. Because I've seen it happen personally with people I know more than once. Everyone has coverage already, you can't be turned away that's just not how it works in the US as it is even pre obamacare. So let's do some math. We were already paying for these people before, now we're going to still be paying for them while our rates go up even more. Again how is this any sort of solution? You still didn't give me one actual good reason that Obamacare is a good idea.

Convenience is not an important factor, you're just trying to intermingle personal morals in a discussion about health care. I don't care why someone needs an abortion, they need an abortion and it costs everyone a lot less to give them one. Health care needs are many and not just based around your personal crusades by the way. I listed several reasons already, you had nothing to refute them and instead went on a tangent about personal responsibility which again has little to do with the discussion.

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 2013, 17:53.
 
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124. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 17:40 Redmask
 
I get that abortions in the long run put less strain on the economy, however you're still taking a life

It's funny that you want people to value a life when it's being conceived but totally ignore it and it's quality of life afterward. No hypocrisy there at all.
 
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123. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 16:51 Mad Max RW
 
So how many of you signed up for Obamacare?  
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122. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 16:40 nin
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 16:34:
The most interesting thing about this thread is that it's the moderates, or even moderate conservatives who are going to town on the wingnuts. Thundr, Scarlet, NewMaxx, you're so far out in right field that you're past the bleachers and in the parking lot. The liberals don't even need to counter you because the moderates are so opposed and offended by your rhetoric/positions.

Also what's interesting is how link-free the wingnut discussion is. They make statement after statement with no proof or citation. Directly from Limbaugh's mouth to your brain with no filter.


That's why their party is so divided. And we can just sit back and watch.


 
http://store.nin.com/index.php?cPath=10
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121. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 15, 2013, 16:34 jdreyer
 
The most interesting thing about this thread is that it's the moderates, or even moderate conservatives who are going to town on the wingnuts. Thundr, Scarlet, NewMaxx, you're so far out in right field that you're past the bleachers and in the parking lot. The liberals don't even need to counter you because the moderates are so opposed and offended by your rhetoric/positions.

Also what's interesting is how link-free the wingnut discussion is. They make statement after statement with no proof or citation. Directly from Limbaugh's mouth to your brain with no filter.

 
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"Microsoft is the absent minded parent of PC gaming" - Verno
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120. Re: Internet abandons the US Oct 15, 2013, 16:27 RollinThundr
 
Verno wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 16:08:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 16:01:
I think you're reading into what I'm saying more than needed. I said earlier on the topic of abortions, if it's rape, or there's a serious medical reason that's one thing. Often it's a convenience thing, ie it's easier to abort than spend the next 18 years caring for a life tha isn't your own. That I have issue with. But society has for whatever reason decided that's ok. Why, I have no fucking clue.

No, you're just confusing your own vague rants with this health care discussion and not even doing a particularly good job of it. Health care by and large is not a convenience thing. Your example is silly too, a woman having a child that she can't necessarily provide for creates a much larger strain on the system than providing her coverage does. 100 abortions are probably less expensive than a single child when we're talking about the cost to society and people rarely get pregnant with the intent of defrauding the public. Basic coverage just makes sense, having a weird set of politically charged exclusion criteria like yours would probably wind up way more expensive.

If you have a medical condition that prevents you from working that's something completely different. That's not the same as people who are capable of working who don't and instead live of the rest of us, pretending there's only a couple who do that, is about as naive as you can get.

Again you fail to think this one through. With the basic goal of providing everyone coverage we get the ability to marginalize this problem since it is much harder for people to fake medical tests used to help determine eligibility for social care programs. I've never seen convincing stats to show me that social care programs are in widespread abuse either. The whole "derp derp living on my money!!!" thing is oft regurgitated but financially insignificant on a national level.

Oh ffs it's not going to be at all harder to fake anything. And I'm sure the bill has been manufactured in a way to make that so.

I get that abortions in the long run put less strain on the economy, however you're still taking a life and I'm sorry if I disagree that abortions do happen out of convenience. Because I've seen it happen personally with people I know more than once.

Everyone has coverage already, you can't be turned away that's just not how it works in the US as it is even pre obamacare. So let's do some math. We were already paying for these people before, now we're going to still be paying for them while our rates go up even more. Again how is this any sort of solution? You still didn't give me one actual good reason that Obamacare is a good idea.
 
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