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759. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 13:59 Prez
 
Is it fair to assume the c-suite pay has probably skyrocketed, as in exponential growth? A reward for "lean manufacturing?"

As of this year we are now a wholly owned subsidiary of Georgia Pacific. Which of course is one of the largest organizations in - wait for it - Koch Industries. Even before that, our company's corporate bonuses alone were higher than the salaries of the twenty highest-paid hourly workers combined. One of the bonuses would have kept every single employee who was laid off in the year (even while we were making record profits) on board for the entire year. If these were even remotely isolated incidents, I'd go work somewhere else. But this is so common that I hear similar stories from virtually every single person I know who works.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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758. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 13:15 RollinThundr
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:47:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:21:
Why are you always so outright combative? This isn't about republicans or democrats, put the party aside for half a second, and please don't twist my words, there should be a limit as to what they can charge, that isn't the same as dictating what a procedure would cost, stop being like that, it serves no purpose. 
It's apparent that they didn't properly test, and that's my fault somehow? Stop making excuses for how big a failure it's been so far, and maybe post your own solutions that don't involve big government. 
Either that or just come out and admit that you're one of those government knows best advocates, because you certainly seem to be extremely reluctant to say one bad thing about how much fail it's been so far.
So tell me bagger, do you have any solutions or do you only require other people to offer them up?

Did you really just ask me why I'm combative?

Anyway, I wasn't making it about Republicans or Democrats. I simply wondered why Republicans didn't make a big issue of the plan requirements back when things were still being negotiated. How is that making it a partisan thing?

As for the IT problems, I've already said they fucked it up pretty well, and that I would love to know what happened to leave them with only a couple weeks to do integration testing, and how they thought they could roll it out given that timeframe. Not sure if today's congressional testimony will shed any light on that. I do want to know what happened.

As for solutions, I see single payer as the best option. It creates the biggest risk pool and provides the best price negotiation position. We also have many examples of such systems to learn from when implementing it. Some countries have done it well and others have done it poorly. We can use that information to our advantage.

Ultimately we are going to provide health care for everyone. The question is whether we're going to continue to do it in a most expensive, inefficient and least effective way, or are we going to do it in a way that actually keeps people healthier so they can work and contribute to the economy instead of waiting until they need expensive emergency care and are unable to contribute anything.

Why didn't the republicans argue? Because all 3 branches of government at the time were majority democrats, the ACA passed with zero republican votes, ZERO. That alone should raise a few red flags.

Rather than do it right, he pushed through a disaster of a plan, repeatedly lied about it, is still lying about it, and refuses to take any responsibility for how big a fail it's been so far.

What do you propose Bagger, we spend another 100 billion+ on more failures?

Please propose something that not only will cut medical costs, but still allow people to make choices that will be best for them and their families?
 
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757. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 13:10 Beamer
 
Prez wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:39:
... I don't know about you but I get raises based on performance reviews, in a municipal job of all places. Maybe you just get raises just because you're a special snowflake, but I don't think the real world generally follows that model.

You might be surprised with the manufacturing industry in the US today. Raises have virtually nothing to do with performance. In 13 years the only raises I've gotten have been cost of living increases (that never even match inflation) and a single one I got when I was promoted to senior electrican. I am working my ass off nowadays - more than I ever have in the past because while the workload steadily increases year-on-year we have the fewest laborers in my company's 94 year history thanks to "Lean Manufacturing". And with the huge increases in health care costs, deductibles, pharmacy plans (all prior to the ACA mind you) and just the general cost of living it feels like I make less money every year. So how exactly is my hard work being rewarded? Am I not working hard enough when I work 10 to 12 hour days, often with stretches of 2 and 3 weeks without a day off? I know get a better job, right? Except that there are no better jobs in my area. Despite all of the aforementioned issues people trying their damndest to come work at my company as it has the best pay and benefits in the area. Oh, I should just move to a better area? Okay, and take a $30,000 loss on my house since it never recovered its value after the housing market crashed, right?

Like I said, real life doesn't fit neatly into your scheme of one-line cliche solutions like "work hard to get ahead" and "make a better life for yourself". It is way more complex than that. Are there lazy good-for-nothing leeches on society who do nothing but live off of society? Yep. But most people who end up needing help because they can't do enough on their own to "make a better life" fall into a different category than that.

So, in other words, over 13 years your salary hasn't budged much but your workload has.

Is it fair to assume the c-suite pay has probably skyrocketed, as in exponential growth? A reward for "lean manufacturing?"
 
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756. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 13:04 Mad Max RW
 
Prez wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:52:
Mad Max RW wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:47:

If you believe the government is going to fix any or all of your problems you are extremely naive.

What makes you think I want the government to fix my problems? Or that anyone else in a similar situation does? That you would even suggest that I might is a little insulting. That wasn't even the discussion. The topic was how hard work does not always equate to success. Or a better life. My point was that often the best thing working harder does for you is maintain the status quo, and I can't even manage that when I'm falling further behind every year.

Maybe because this is a discussion about Obamacare and government thinking they know better? If you're not against that then what are you? So far your posts are carefully worded so as to not to have an opinion on anything, especially the disaster that is Obamacare.

If things are so bad for you and you don't want government handouts ask Beamer to help you out. I'm sure he's very charitable with his money.
 
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755. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:52 Prez
 
Mad Max RW wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:47:

If you believe the government is going to fix any or all of your problems you are extremely naive.

What makes you think I want the government to fix my problems? Or that anyone else in a similar situation does? That you would even suggest that I might is a little insulting. That wasn't even the discussion. The topic was how hard work does not always equate to success. Or a better life. My point was that often the best thing working harder does for you is maintain the status quo, and I can't even manage that when I'm falling further behind every year.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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754. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:47 Mad Max RW
 
Prez wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:39:
... I don't know about you but I get raises based on performance reviews, in a municipal job of all places. Maybe you just get raises just because you're a special snowflake, but I don't think the real world generally follows that model.

You might be surprised with the manufacturing industry in the US today. Raises have virtually nothing to do with performance. In 13 years the only raises I've gotten have been cost of living increases (that never even match inflation) and a single one I got when I was promoted to senior electrican. I am working my ass off nowadays - more than I ever have in the past because while the workload steadily increases year-on-year we have the fewest laborers in my company's 94 year history thanks to "Lean Manufacturing". And with the huge increases in health care costs, deductibles, pharmacy plans (all prior to the ACA mind you) and just the general cost of living it feels like I make less money every year. So how exactly is my hard work being rewarded? Am I not working hard enough when I work 10 to 12 hour days, often with stretches of 2 and 3 weeks without a day off? I know get a better job, right? Except that there are no better jobs in my area. Despite all of the aforementioned issues people trying their damndest to come work at my company as it has the best pay and benefits in the area. Oh, I should just move to a better area? Okay, and take a $30,000 loss on my house since it never recovered its value after the housing market crashed, right?

Like I said, real life doesn't fit neatly into your scheme of one-line cliche solutions like "work hard to get ahead" and "make a better life for yourself". It is way more complex than that.

If you believe the government is going to fix any or all of your problems you are extremely naive.
 
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753. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:47 Wowbagger_TIP
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:21:
Why are you always so outright combative? This isn't about republicans or democrats, put the party aside for half a second, and please don't twist my words, there should be a limit as to what they can charge, that isn't the same as dictating what a procedure would cost, stop being like that, it serves no purpose. 
It's apparent that they didn't properly test, and that's my fault somehow? Stop making excuses for how big a failure it's been so far, and maybe post your own solutions that don't involve big government. 
Either that or just come out and admit that you're one of those government knows best advocates, because you certainly seem to be extremely reluctant to say one bad thing about how much fail it's been so far.
So tell me bagger, do you have any solutions or do you only require other people to offer them up?

Did you really just ask me why I'm combative?

Anyway, I wasn't making it about Republicans or Democrats. I simply wondered why Republicans didn't make a big issue of the plan requirements back when things were still being negotiated. How is that making it a partisan thing?

As for the IT problems, I've already said they fucked it up pretty well, and that I would love to know what happened to leave them with only a couple weeks to do integration testing, and how they thought they could roll it out given that timeframe. Not sure if today's congressional testimony will shed any light on that. I do want to know what happened.

As for solutions, I see single payer as the best option. It creates the biggest risk pool and provides the best price negotiation position. We also have many examples of such systems to learn from when implementing it. Some countries have done it well and others have done it poorly. We can use that information to our advantage.

Ultimately we are going to provide health care for everyone. The question is whether we're going to continue to do it in a most expensive, inefficient and least effective way, or are we going to do it in a way that actually keeps people healthier so they can work and contribute to the economy instead of waiting until they need expensive emergency care and are unable to contribute anything.

This comment was edited on Oct 31, 2013, 12:53.
 
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752. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:39 Prez
 
... I don't know about you but I get raises based on performance reviews, in a municipal job of all places. Maybe you just get raises just because you're a special snowflake, but I don't think the real world generally follows that model.

You might be surprised with the manufacturing industry in the US today. Raises have virtually nothing to do with performance. In 13 years the only raises I've gotten have been cost of living increases (that never even match inflation) and a single one I got when I was promoted to senior electrican. I am working my ass off nowadays - more than I ever have in the past because while the workload steadily increases year-on-year we have the fewest laborers in my company's 94 year history thanks to "Lean Manufacturing". And with the huge increases in health care costs, deductibles, pharmacy plans (all prior to the ACA mind you) and just the general cost of living it feels like I make less money every year. So how exactly is my hard work being rewarded? Am I not working hard enough when I work 10 to 12 hour days, often with stretches of 2 and 3 weeks without a day off? I know get a better job, right? Except that there are no better jobs in my area. Despite all of the aforementioned issues people trying their damndest to come work at my company as it has the best pay and benefits in the area. Oh, I should just move to a better area? Okay, and take a $30,000 loss on my house since it never recovered its value after the housing market crashed, right?

Like I said, real life doesn't fit neatly into your scheme of one-line cliche solutions like "work hard to get ahead" and "make a better life for yourself". It is way more complex than that. Are there lazy good-for-nothing leeches on society who do nothing but live off of society? Yep. But most people who end up needing help because they can't do enough on their own to "make a better life" fall into a different category than that.


This comment was edited on Oct 31, 2013, 12:48.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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751. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:29 D-Rock
 
disregard, double post -- meant to edit previous.  
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750. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:27 D-Rock
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:12:
Hard work correlates weakly to success. Very weakly. Luck counts for more.

I agree on you with this. However...

Beamer wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:12:
Also the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" argument strikes me as flawed.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" is spot on. If luck is a factor, then logic will tell you that some people are going to have the bad kind. Sometimes this is the only answer to a situation. It's unfortunate and life sucks sometimes, but if someone chooses to not take this approach when it's necessary, I have no sympathy.
 
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749. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:19 RollinThundr
 
Mad Max RW wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:13:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:59:

You do though. You live in the US. Why is it my problem if someone gets laid off? Of course bad things happen to good people, that's life, it isn't a picnic.

It's only ok when the government does these things. Wait, let me clarify. It's only ok when a Democratic majority run government with a Democratic president does these things. Don't point it out or you are a racist ideologue tea bagger.


Preeeeeety much, logic and reality be damned.
 
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748. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:17 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 12:12:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:59:
Prez wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:52:
Over simplified my ass, either you go and make a life for yourself or you don't. There's nothing over simplified about it, is it easy? No, and no one ever said it was, but people make choices in life, what they decide to do with those choices is up to them. I'm sorry if I don't bleed for those who refuse to make a life for themselves.

I don't owe those who don't, anything, neither do you, neither does beamer or anyone else for that matter.

I really have to say I'm glad I don't live in the country you envision. So when something bad happens to good people, something through no fault of their own (like being laid off from their job because of downsizing in a bad economy, or maxing out their health insurance and being dropped because their wife has breast cancer) your answer is actually "just go make a life for yourself - work harder!"??? Bad things happen to good people, and it isn't evil or a crime for them to let society help them get back on their feet and yes, you are grossly over-simplifying things.

You do though. You live in the US. Why is it my problem if someone gets laid off? Of course bad things happen to good people, that's life, it isn't a picnic.

Look, I have no problem with things like welfare or unemployment when it's needed to help someone get back on their feet, that's not the same as what most liberals (not calling you one btw) want, there's a difference between using a safety net should something unexpected happen, and abusing the system. They aren't one and the same.

Because when someone is laid off, he's not spending as much. He may not be paying off his debt. And, if he has a medical emergency and no insurance, costs skyrocket and he's not the one paying for it.

One guy may not add up.
Millions of guys and suddenly your economy is monumentally struggling.

Also the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" argument strikes me as flawed. Hard work correlates weakly to success. Very weakly. Luck counts for more. Being born with money counts for more. This country is full of hundreds of millions of hard workers living paycheck to paycheck. My best guess would be nearly every minimum wage employee has a harder work day than I do, yet I make something like 15 times what they do per hour.

No duh being born with higher means obviously makes it easier, I've said that, over and over and over, you're either ignoring that part of my comments to try and push a point or you just don't care.

And again you're implying things that you don't know as fact to try and invalidate someone's opinion.

"Hard work correlates weakly to success. Very weakly" Spoken like someone who likely wouldn't know hard work if it kicked him upside the head, I don't know about you but I get raises based on performance reviews, in a municipal job of all places. Maybe you just get raises just because you're a special snowflake, but I don't think the real world generally follows that model.
 
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747. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:13 Mad Max RW
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:59:

You do though. You live in the US. Why is it my problem if someone gets laid off? Of course bad things happen to good people, that's life, it isn't a picnic.

It's only ok when the government does these things. Wait, let me clarify. It's only ok when a Democratic majority run government with a Democratic president does these things. Don't point it out or you are a racist ideologue tea bagger.
 
Avatar 15920
 
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746. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 12:12 Beamer
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:59:
Prez wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:52:
Over simplified my ass, either you go and make a life for yourself or you don't. There's nothing over simplified about it, is it easy? No, and no one ever said it was, but people make choices in life, what they decide to do with those choices is up to them. I'm sorry if I don't bleed for those who refuse to make a life for themselves.

I don't owe those who don't, anything, neither do you, neither does beamer or anyone else for that matter.

I really have to say I'm glad I don't live in the country you envision. So when something bad happens to good people, something through no fault of their own (like being laid off from their job because of downsizing in a bad economy, or maxing out their health insurance and being dropped because their wife has breast cancer) your answer is actually "just go make a life for yourself - work harder!"??? Bad things happen to good people, and it isn't evil or a crime for them to let society help them get back on their feet and yes, you are grossly over-simplifying things.

You do though. You live in the US. Why is it my problem if someone gets laid off? Of course bad things happen to good people, that's life, it isn't a picnic.

Look, I have no problem with things like welfare or unemployment when it's needed to help someone get back on their feet, that's not the same as what most liberals (not calling you one btw) want, there's a difference between using a safety net should something unexpected happen, and abusing the system. They aren't one and the same.

Because when someone is laid off, he's not spending as much. He may not be paying off his debt. And, if he has a medical emergency and no insurance, costs skyrocket and he's not the one paying for it.

One guy may not add up.
Millions of guys and suddenly your economy is monumentally struggling.

Also the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" argument strikes me as flawed. Hard work correlates weakly to success. Very weakly. Luck counts for more. Being born with money counts for more. This country is full of hundreds of millions of hard workers living paycheck to paycheck. My best guess would be nearly every minimum wage employee has a harder work day than I do, yet I make something like 15 times what they do per hour.
 
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745. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 11:59 RollinThundr
 
Prez wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:52:
Over simplified my ass, either you go and make a life for yourself or you don't. There's nothing over simplified about it, is it easy? No, and no one ever said it was, but people make choices in life, what they decide to do with those choices is up to them. I'm sorry if I don't bleed for those who refuse to make a life for themselves.

I don't owe those who don't, anything, neither do you, neither does beamer or anyone else for that matter.

I really have to say I'm glad I don't live in the country you envision. So when something bad happens to good people, something through no fault of their own (like being laid off from their job because of downsizing in a bad economy, or maxing out their health insurance and being dropped because their wife has breast cancer) your answer is actually "just go make a life for yourself - work harder!"??? Bad things happen to good people, and it isn't evil or a crime for them to let society help them get back on their feet and yes, you are grossly over-simplifying things.

You do though. You live in the US. Why is it my problem if someone gets laid off? Of course bad things happen to good people, that's life, it isn't a picnic.

Look, I have no problem with things like welfare or unemployment when it's needed to help someone get back on their feet, that's not the same as what most liberals (not calling you one btw) want, there's a difference between using a safety net should something unexpected happen, and abusing the system. They aren't one and the same.
 
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743. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 11:52 Prez
 
Over simplified my ass, either you go and make a life for yourself or you don't. There's nothing over simplified about it, is it easy? No, and no one ever said it was, but people make choices in life, what they decide to do with those choices is up to them. I'm sorry if I don't bleed for those who refuse to make a life for themselves.

I don't owe those who don't, anything, neither do you, neither does beamer or anyone else for that matter.

I really have to say I'm glad I don't live in the country you envision. So when something bad happens to good people, something through no fault of their own (like being laid off from their job because of downsizing in a bad economy, or maxing out their health insurance and being dropped because their wife has breast cancer) your answer is actually "just go make a life for yourself - work harder!"??? Bad things happen to good people, and it isn't evil or a crime for them to let society help them get back on their feet and yes, you are grossly over-simplifying things.
 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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742. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 11:21 RollinThundr
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:14:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:03:
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 10:51:
I know that asking you for specifics on anything is generally a waste of time, but I'm curious about how a president RollinThundr, in all his infinitesimal wisdom, would propose to pay for the care of all the uninsured that show up to the ERs in need of very expensive care. Please explain.

Via regulation so that both hospitals and big pharma aren't allowed to drive up cost just because they can. I think that would be a better start than forcing everyone to pay for coverages they may or may not need and allow individuals to choose what works best for them in their situations, rather than a one size fits all government mandate, buy it or suffer the consequences. Are we in America anymore? That's not even taking into account that every time through out history, anytime government tries to do something better the public sector it always ends up costing more or being implemented horribly. That goes for either party, that's just government in general, inept.

I don't claim to have all the answers bagger, but good God man, do you honestly think with all the facts coming out, that this has been somehow better at all?
"Big IT project runs late and over budget" wouldn't be news anywhere. The part about people not getting to keep their crappy insurance, thereby forcing others to pay for their care when they eventually need it, is a non-issue. I do think they should have explained that better before. I'm surprised Republicans didn't point that out a long time ago.

So your solution would be to tell doctors, hospitals and insurance companies what they can charge for their services? And you think that's better? You're right. You don't have any good answers. When you have a better plan than what we're doing now, let us know. Until then, you're just bitching about things you don't understand.

Why are you always so outright combative? This isn't about republicans or democrats, put the party aside for half a second, and please don't twist my words, there should be a limit as to what they can charge, that isn't the same as dictating what a procedure would cost, stop being like that, it serves no purpose.

It's apparent that they didn't properly test, and that's my fault somehow? Stop making excuses for how big a failure it's been so far, and maybe post your own solutions that don't involve big government.

Either that or just come out and admit that you're one of those government knows best advocates, because you certainly seem to be extremely reluctant to say one bad thing about how much fail it's been so far.

So tell me bagger, do you have any solutions or do you only require other people to offer them up?
 
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741. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 11:17 Mad Max RW
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:14:
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:03:
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 10:51:
I know that asking you for specifics on anything is generally a waste of time, but I'm curious about how a president RollinThundr, in all his infinitesimal wisdom, would propose to pay for the care of all the uninsured that show up to the ERs in need of very expensive care. Please explain.

Via regulation so that both hospitals and big pharma aren't allowed to drive up cost just because they can. I think that would be a better start than forcing everyone to pay for coverages they may or may not need and allow individuals to choose what works best for them in their situations, rather than a one size fits all government mandate, buy it or suffer the consequences. Are we in America anymore? That's not even taking into account that every time through out history, anytime government tries to do something better the public sector it always ends up costing more or being implemented horribly. That goes for either party, that's just government in general, inept.

I don't claim to have all the answers bagger, but good God man, do you honestly think with all the facts coming out, that this has been somehow better at all?
"Big IT project runs late and over budget" wouldn't be news anywhere. The part about people not getting to keep their crappy insurance, thereby forcing others to pay for their care when they eventually need it, is a non-issue. I do think they should have explained that better before. I'm surprised Republicans didn't point that out a long time ago.

So your solution would be to tell doctors, hospitals and insurance companies what they can charge for their services? And you think that's better? You're right. You don't have any good answers. When you have a better plan than what we're doing now, let us know. Until then, you're just bitching about things you don't understand.

You're just repeating Obama's talking points AGAIN. Why do you follow him so blindly?
 
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740. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 31, 2013, 11:14 Wowbagger_TIP
 
RollinThundr wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 11:03:
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 10:51:
I know that asking you for specifics on anything is generally a waste of time, but I'm curious about how a president RollinThundr, in all his infinitesimal wisdom, would propose to pay for the care of all the uninsured that show up to the ERs in need of very expensive care. Please explain.

Via regulation so that both hospitals and big pharma aren't allowed to drive up cost just because they can. I think that would be a better start than forcing everyone to pay for coverages they may or may not need and allow individuals to choose what works best for them in their situations, rather than a one size fits all government mandate, buy it or suffer the consequences. Are we in America anymore? That's not even taking into account that every time through out history, anytime government tries to do something better the public sector it always ends up costing more or being implemented horribly. That goes for either party, that's just government in general, inept.

I don't claim to have all the answers bagger, but good God man, do you honestly think with all the facts coming out, that this has been somehow better at all?
"Big IT project runs late and over budget" wouldn't be news anywhere. The part about people not getting to keep their crappy insurance, thereby forcing others to pay for their care when they eventually need it, is a non-issue. I do think they should have explained that better before. I'm surprised Republicans didn't point that out a long time ago.

So your solution would be to tell doctors, hospitals and insurance companies what they can charge for their services? And you think that's better? You're right. You don't have any good answers. When you have a better plan than what we're doing now, let us know. Until then, you're just bitching about things you don't understand.
 
Avatar 9540
 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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