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Morning Consolidation

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29. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 2, 2013, 11:54 Beamer
 
killer_roach wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 21:43:
Cutter wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 14:38:
This is PR - pushed by MS obviously - to try and get people to see the "benefits" of being always online. And it's a load of horseshit. Even on DSL whenever I connected to anything online for MS' network my ping as always 150-250ms. So how the fuck is their cloud going to help my game with that sort of latency? Those cockbags may not be lying outright but they're certainly being disingenuous by not telling the whole truth.

Yeah, exactly. It's not that it's doing that much more for AI calculations, it's just that it gives the game that many more data points from which the AI can process from. It does improve the system, sure, but how they word it makes it sound like it's providing some sort of performance boost, which it isn't. In fact, depending on how it's coded, it could likely make the whole thing slower.

I'd be shocked to hear it do anything more than data points and ghosting.
In theory, what he's saying is possible. You could free up 10%-20% of current CPU time by putting AI in the cloud. And, in theory, you could get 600% AI calculations that way.
But in theory, the Virtual Boy was a good idea. In theory, Gaiku could replace gaming as we know it. In theory, Zynga has some good ideas...
 
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28. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 2, 2013, 11:28 Creston
 
dangerman77 wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 15:11:
I just used a pickaxe to punch speed holes into my desktop case to increase the AI in Civ V. I'll be back later to let you know how well it works, probably quantified as a percentage.

Microsoft says that by doing this, you gained the power of NINE THOUSAND XBONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!
 
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27. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 2, 2013, 00:37 HorrorScope
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 09:50:
More PR bullshit.
I love Forza and respect the devs but this cloud crap is getting on my nerves.
One of the commenter in that article says

And this is why I want an always online future, I want my games to improve by not having to upgrade all the time with a new console or PC but through data online which can do the processing.

Dude wake the fuck up!!

I endorse that response. I'd say... lets see a MF'ing Youtube demo of even blocks exhibiting this behavior. I wants ta see it!
 
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26. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 2, 2013, 00:34 HorrorScope
 
jacobvandy wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 13:59:
HorrorScope wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 10:22:
Ok.... let me bring in Matlock logic.

1. So you say the AI is based off gathering data from other drivers on the net.
2. What if those drivers are worse than the AI you could program or under your standards? Could it be possible then that the AI is 600% more stupid?
3. Can you not just take drivers from your office and have them race and capture their capabilities and put them into Forza as your AI, that way you won't have to program the complex routines to capturing others on the net and bringing them into game? And random issues with just taking random anonymous net drivers? Doesn't this have the chance of going terribly wrong?
4. Couldn't you hire professional drivers to ensure better AI then random internet drivers on the net or in your office?

I'll just have to see this one to believe it. Like the Milo Mega Scanner... just swipe a paper in front of kinect... the Xbox will bring it in instantly and Milo can read anything from it. Amazing!

I mean if a 360 has the processing power to do that the One has to be able to handle racing AI.

I'm also not convinced that local HW isn't more capable of better AI. It's the humans that need to program that in, which they tell me simply is very difficult to do and I think ROI is the issue not power. So just having more processing power doesn't make programming said AI easier.

"Better AI" doesn't just mean BETTER drivers that are more challenging, it means more realistic drivers that have dynamic strategies and actually make mistakes sometimes, too. So you have a huge pool of crappy players, great players, and many more in between. You need data from all of them to create a more realistic pool of AI drivers for your game in this way. There are difficulty settings, campaign difficulty progression, drivers that always end up last no matter what because their daddy bought them into the league, etc...

I get that... all theory imo. So if you suck do you get a slower driver or one that crashes more? If it is either you don't really need to know how others do it, you slow cars down or you make them looser etc. I get your point, but it still takes real programming and a lot of trial to make this really work in the end. Show me, show me, show me.
 
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25. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 21:43 killer_roach
 
Cutter wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 14:38:
This is PR - pushed by MS obviously - to try and get people to see the "benefits" of being always online. And it's a load of horseshit. Even on DSL whenever I connected to anything online for MS' network my ping as always 150-250ms. So how the fuck is their cloud going to help my game with that sort of latency? Those cockbags may not be lying outright but they're certainly being disingenuous by not telling the whole truth.

Yeah, exactly. It's not that it's doing that much more for AI calculations, it's just that it gives the game that many more data points from which the AI can process from. It does improve the system, sure, but how they word it makes it sound like it's providing some sort of performance boost, which it isn't. In fact, depending on how it's coded, it could likely make the whole thing slower.
 
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24. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 15:21 Agent.X7
 
If it was so important for consumers to accept the WiiU, they shouldn't have made it such a piece of shit. I love the controller. the second screen thing has great potential. Everything else sucks. It's slow as fuck to do anything, and it's already behind technologically speaking. It just does nothing well.  
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23. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 15:11 dangerman77
 
I just used a pickaxe to punch speed holes into my desktop case to increase the AI in Civ V. I'll be back later to let you know how well it works, probably quantified as a percentage.  
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22. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 14:38 Cutter
 
This is PR - pushed by MS obviously - to try and get people to see the "benefits" of being always online. And it's a load of horseshit. Even on DSL whenever I connected to anything online for MS' network my ping as always 150-250ms. So how the fuck is their cloud going to help my game with that sort of latency? Those cockbags may not be lying outright but they're certainly being disingenuous by not telling the whole truth.
 
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21. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 14:07 Burrito of Peace
 
I have a cloud. A very large cloud.

It does not make anything eleventyhojillion times faster. All it means is that I have a better distribution of the load. Whether that is network load, data transfer load, transaction load or whathaveyou.

Sure, in theory, you could have a buttload of Titan supercomputers in a datacentre doing nothing but crunching arbitrary numbers but that seems like an awful lot of money for just offloading processing.
 
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20. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 13:59 jacobvandy
 
HorrorScope wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 10:22:
Ok.... let me bring in Matlock logic.

1. So you say the AI is based off gathering data from other drivers on the net.
2. What if those drivers are worse than the AI you could program or under your standards? Could it be possible then that the AI is 600% more stupid?
3. Can you not just take drivers from your office and have them race and capture their capabilities and put them into Forza as your AI, that way you won't have to program the complex routines to capturing others on the net and bringing them into game? And random issues with just taking random anonymous net drivers? Doesn't this have the chance of going terribly wrong?
4. Couldn't you hire professional drivers to ensure better AI then random internet drivers on the net or in your office?

I'll just have to see this one to believe it. Like the Milo Mega Scanner... just swipe a paper in front of kinect... the Xbox will bring it in instantly and Milo can read anything from it. Amazing!

I mean if a 360 has the processing power to do that the One has to be able to handle racing AI.

I'm also not convinced that local HW isn't more capable of better AI. It's the humans that need to program that in, which they tell me simply is very difficult to do and I think ROI is the issue not power. So just having more processing power doesn't make programming said AI easier.

"Better AI" doesn't just mean BETTER drivers that are more challenging, it means more realistic drivers that have dynamic strategies and actually make mistakes sometimes, too. So you have a huge pool of crappy players, great players, and many more in between. You need data from all of them to create a more realistic pool of AI drivers for your game in this way. There are difficulty settings, campaign difficulty progression, drivers that always end up last no matter what because their daddy bought them into the league, etc...
 
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19. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 13:41 Hellbinder
 
its BS. the cloud is not infinite and it is being used for many things. After all its just a bunch of networked computers.

say they sell a million copies. do they really think "the cloud" can handle processing AI for 1 million racing games let alone everything else that "the cloud" is being used for.

These people act like "the cloud" is some kind of magic carpet.
 
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18. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 12:52 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 12:39:
PS4 R&D losses weigh down PlayStation financials.

What R & D costs? It's a freakin' PC!

Have you seen the chassis and internal design for that thing? It's a miracle they put an internal power supply into it with that form factor. There is a lot more that goes into it than just choosing the CPU/GPU. For example they built an entirely new GUI on top of FreeBSD.
 
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17. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 12:39 jdreyer
 
PS4 R&D losses weigh down PlayStation financials.

What R & D costs? It's a freakin' PC!
 
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16. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 12:26 Verno
 
PropheT wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 12:11:
That one bothers me, too. It's been around for years now, so people really should be replacing "think what it can do!" with "What does it do?" by now. I guess if I was making an argument for it I wouldn't touch "What does it do?" because the answer is, like you said, just dancing games.

Yeah it's frustrating trying to reason with such people so I usually don't bother. Motion gaming isn't a new fangled concept anymore, it has no real surprises for us, we've had both accurate and inaccurate devices and so far developers don't seem very interested in doing anything with the tech. Ryse was supposed to be the big showcase of Kinect in games and they removed the functionality after discovering it just isn't any fun to play traditional games with motion controls.

The best bet for that stuff is voice additions and commands but you can do that with a $5 headset, no need for an expensive Kinect. It's strictly an advertising revenue boondoggle for Ballmer and the rest of the suits. I will likely never buy an Xbox One anyway but I certainly will not until they make an SKU without the camera.
 
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15. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 12:11 PropheT
 
Verno wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 09:54:
I even see Kinect defenders on forums which is hilarious because as a gaming peripheral it has totally failed the core market in every way possible. "Just think of what it can do, the technology is amazing!" uhh ok, what good is it aside from dancing games again? Nothing? Ok. Microsoft themselves can barely be bothered to support it with first party stuff.

That one bothers me, too. It's been around for years now, so people really should be replacing "think what it can do!" with "What does it do?" by now. I guess if I was making an argument for it I wouldn't touch "What does it do?" because the answer is, like you said, just dancing games.

As for the AI capability claim, I can see it if they're talking about networked behavioral tracking to monitor how players are completing certain challenges and then adjusting the computer opponents to compensate. If they're talking about real-time cloud processing during races, though...I just don't see it with the latency involved.
 
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14. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 11:39 Verno
 
Both consoles have 8 CPU cores and there is no need to offload AI anytime soon, it's marketing BS because they're the weaker console in terms of hardware.  
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13. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 11:16 NegaDeath
 
I could see the argument that the cloud could be used to enhance some graphic elements that aren't affected by internet latency, I think someone explained how that would work in a prior post and it made sense. But how the hell do you do that for AI? AI is designed to react to the player in real-time, aka latency would be an issue.  
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12. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 11:10 Creston
 
LightAssassin wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 09:51:
Just means they get to externally crunch mass amounts of data to improve the AI, then send the information back to the console. It's not going to be amazing, but the AI will learn from many players at once, and share its data.

That presupposes that they actually are capable of programming AI that can learn. Which really isn't as easy as all that. There have been a few examples of it working in the field of robotics, but it's mostly been minor stuff.

For them to say that they'll crunch all that data, it will get analyzed, and their AI will become a better driver because of it sounds like 100% pure PR horseshit. At most, the AI will start cheating more, which is what game devs usually mean when they say "It learns!"

Creston
 
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11. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 11:06 Creston
 
Oh, now it's SIX-hundred percent. I guess MS isn't getting enough pre-orders, so now their fairy tale of four-hundred percent has to get ramped up.

Come October, they'll all be shouting "TEH CLOUD GIVES YOU TEH POWER OF TEH INFINITE XBONES!1!!1! YOU WILL BE AS A GOD!"

Fucking tools.

Creston
 
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10. Re: Morning Consolidation Aug 1, 2013, 11:06 Beamer
 
InBlack wrote on Aug 1, 2013, 10:35:
600% of what? How the fuck do you even quantify AI? It either works or its broken.

Dude, your post is as missing-the-point as the headline.
AI doesn't "work or doesn't." AI can be smart. It can be dumb. It can make decisions and react, or it can just do one thing. How "smart" it is takes processor time.

What he's saying, if you read the article and not the headline, is that without the cloud AI takes somewhere between 10% and 20% of a machine's processing time (aka power.) With the cloud he can put that 10-20% back into other areas, such as graphics, and use the cloud to get 600% of the machine's total power focused on AI. In other words, it's like having 1 machine dedicated to graphics/input/networking/etc., and 6 boxes dedicated to AI.

While I think that's a huge stretch - I highly doubt 100% of the former AI processing is freed, and highly doubt you're getting even 50% of an XBOne as cloud power for AI (which isn't even 600% of status quo), no one here seems to be arguing against what he actually said. People are arguing against an incredibly dumb headline.

% of processor time dedicated to AI is an absolutely measurable thing. Everyone saying this is PR speak is wrong. I'd say the numbers are a total fabrication, but the measurements are not.


edit - didn't was a bit harsher than I meant it. Wasn't InBlack's fault the headline is ridiculous, or that "600%" is ridiculous.

This comment was edited on Aug 1, 2013, 12:16.
 
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