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Morning Consolidation

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33. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 26, 2013, 15:39 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 26, 2013, 13:10:
Definitely.
Sorry, I don't want to seem like I'm defending always-on, or most of the stupid marketing crap coming out. I just think there were benefits to always-on and the cloud that people tend to overlook when they get all, not intentionally copying you, "ALL THIS IS BAD AND WRONG AND EVIL AND BAD FOR CONSUMERS AND EVERYONE IS LYING AND THIS IS ALL CRAP WE CAN DO WITH THE 360!!"

I think some really cool things can come from the cloud simply existing and being cheap. I think it has real, tangible benefits. I don't think it will change the world, and I don't think it will really make games look better, but I think there are subtle things it opens up. And I think always-on would have made that more likely, though at too high a price.


No, I get where you're coming from. What I don't get is, if MS knows that the large majority of its 360 customers are, in essence, always online, why not just plan for that and use those systems they came up with, but also allow those people who CAN'T always be online to play as well? Instead of petulantly turning all the shit off and acting like they got bullied.

Was the potential scenario that those few customers who have an issue with the always-online stuff sharing their discs amongst themselves really THAT big a fucking worry? (it isn't. They were just hoping that by fucking over the used market, they could get publishers to suck their dicks and grant them all these exclusives. It might have helped had they let the publishers know beforehand, though.)

Promote the virtues of the always-online stuff, explain what people GAIN with it, and say "if you can't always be online, don't worry. You can still play your game if you have a disc."

Microsoft spends billions and billions of dollars a year on marketing, but apparently not of their dipshit marketoids has ever realized that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. And now they're acting all butthurt because they got hammered in the court of public opinion.

Hey Ballmer, here's a free tip: When you do your big reorg? First fire every single person working your marketing department. Because none of them are worth their money.

Creston

 
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32. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 26, 2013, 13:10 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jun 26, 2013, 12:59:
Beamer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 19:15:
Oh, I agree with you. It just needs a dedicated server (a matchmaking server wouldn't cut it because you need a host.)
What the cloud is supposed to do is make that dedicated server cheap and reliable. Developers know it's there. They know it will always be there. And, when always-on was a requirement, they knew all their users had access to it.

Those are the three things that hold devs back:
1) Cost
2) Future-proofing
3) Ratio of users to purchasers

If it's cheap, and the cloud promises it will be, and it's always there, and the cloud promises it will be, and it's available to all users, and frankly always-on isn't necessary to assume most will have it, then developers will be more likely to do it.

Note: I'm saying the cloud "promises" rather than "delivers."
But put yourself in the shoes of a developer - if you know your certification cost comes with lifetime server support, wouldn't you be more likely to take advantage of it?

Yeah, you would. And I have no problem with Microsoft linking the xbone to Azure so that devs can have a set-in-stone option for their dedicated servers.

But again, that has nothing to do with this "THE CLOUD GIVES YOU TEH POWER OF TEH FOUR MORE XBONES!!11!!" fairy tale HORSESHIT that Microsoft is pandering, and that quite a few devs apparently seem more than eager to parrot.

I'm amazed cuntyb hasn't yet tweeted about how the cloud will make all games INFINITE in value.

Creston

Definitely.
Sorry, I don't want to seem like I'm defending always-on, or most of the stupid marketing crap coming out. I just think there were benefits to always-on and the cloud that people tend to overlook when they get all, not intentionally copying you, "ALL THIS IS BAD AND WRONG AND EVIL AND BAD FOR CONSUMERS AND EVERYONE IS LYING AND THIS IS ALL CRAP WE CAN DO WITH THE 360!!"

I think some really cool things can come from the cloud simply existing and being cheap. I think it has real, tangible benefits. I don't think it will change the world, and I don't think it will really make games look better, but I think there are subtle things it opens up. And I think always-on would have made that more likely, though at too high a price.

 
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31. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 26, 2013, 12:59 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 19:15:
Oh, I agree with you. It just needs a dedicated server (a matchmaking server wouldn't cut it because you need a host.)
What the cloud is supposed to do is make that dedicated server cheap and reliable. Developers know it's there. They know it will always be there. And, when always-on was a requirement, they knew all their users had access to it.

Those are the three things that hold devs back:
1) Cost
2) Future-proofing
3) Ratio of users to purchasers

If it's cheap, and the cloud promises it will be, and it's always there, and the cloud promises it will be, and it's available to all users, and frankly always-on isn't necessary to assume most will have it, then developers will be more likely to do it.

Note: I'm saying the cloud "promises" rather than "delivers."
But put yourself in the shoes of a developer - if you know your certification cost comes with lifetime server support, wouldn't you be more likely to take advantage of it?

Yeah, you would. And I have no problem with Microsoft linking the xbone to Azure so that devs can have a set-in-stone option for their dedicated servers.

But again, that has nothing to do with this "THE CLOUD GIVES YOU TEH POWER OF TEH FOUR MORE XBONES!!11!!" fairy tale HORSESHIT that Microsoft is pandering, and that quite a few devs apparently seem more than eager to parrot.

I'm amazed cuntyb hasn't yet tweeted about how the cloud will make all games INFINITE in value.

Creston
 
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30. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 26, 2013, 06:21 Mr. Tact
 
NeOCidE wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 11:19:
The sad thing is, anyone without a sense of technology will believe the cloud hype....OMFG1!!1!!! Cloud = 4 xbones!!!1!
No, the sad thing is even managers in tech companies have this mindset.
 
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29. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 20:47 HorrorScope
 
The cool things about the cloud and kinect is you don't even have to program them. They just work. They just know what you want them to do and they just do it. How? Ask Willy Wonka, because I've never seen the blueprints to such wonderful things.  
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28. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 19:15 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 17:22:
Beamer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:41:
Did they really talk about small mechs?

Someone did. To be honest, i'm not 100% sure it was Respawn. But someone said that there'd be these armies of small mechs running around, and the AI for those armies would totally be powered by the cloud etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda. They might as well have said "Yeah, and the AI JUST RUNS ON MAGIC!" for all how likely those bullshit claims were.

Can you offload calculations onto the cloud? Sure. But in order for something to seem even remotely realistic, it has to update far more often than something offloaded to the cloud would appear.

The most interesting cloud usage, to me, is what I think Destiny said they'd do. You'd be playing, either solo or co-op, but suddenly you'd come across a giant battlefield full of humans fighting against a massive alien army, with the humans all being actual people. You'd join the fight, it'd be chaos, then you'd go back on your way with your individual party.

This has nothing to do with the Cloud. Like, literally nothing. You can do that today on the 360 if you wanted to. That's a dev parroting MS's sales pitch without actually even understanding what they're talking about. In this example, the cloud is nothing but a dedicated server, which isn't what they pretend the cloud really is, which is this infinite processing power that devs can use to make games like A TRILLION TIMES BETTER!

In fact, I'll bet that during the lifetime of the Xbone/PS4, we'll see no more than a handful of games actually utilizing "TEH CLOUD!" for anything more than dedicated servers.

Creston

Oh, I agree with you. It just needs a dedicated server (a matchmaking server wouldn't cut it because you need a host.)
What the cloud is supposed to do is make that dedicated server cheap and reliable. Developers know it's there. They know it will always be there. And, when always-on was a requirement, they knew all their users had access to it.

Those are the three things that hold devs back:
1) Cost
2) Future-proofing
3) Ratio of users to purchasers

If it's cheap, and the cloud promises it will be, and it's always there, and the cloud promises it will be, and it's available to all users, and frankly always-on isn't necessary to assume most will have it, then developers will be more likely to do it.

Note: I'm saying the cloud "promises" rather than "delivers."
But put yourself in the shoes of a developer - if you know your certification cost comes with lifetime server support, wouldn't you be more likely to take advantage of it?
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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27. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 17:22 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:41:
Did they really talk about small mechs?

Someone did. To be honest, i'm not 100% sure it was Respawn. But someone said that there'd be these armies of small mechs running around, and the AI for those armies would totally be powered by the cloud etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda. They might as well have said "Yeah, and the AI JUST RUNS ON MAGIC!" for all how likely those bullshit claims were.

Can you offload calculations onto the cloud? Sure. But in order for something to seem even remotely realistic, it has to update far more often than something offloaded to the cloud would appear.

The most interesting cloud usage, to me, is what I think Destiny said they'd do. You'd be playing, either solo or co-op, but suddenly you'd come across a giant battlefield full of humans fighting against a massive alien army, with the humans all being actual people. You'd join the fight, it'd be chaos, then you'd go back on your way with your individual party.

This has nothing to do with the Cloud. Like, literally nothing. You can do that today on the 360 if you wanted to. That's a dev parroting MS's sales pitch without actually even understanding what they're talking about. In this example, the cloud is nothing but a dedicated server, which isn't what they pretend the cloud really is, which is this infinite processing power that devs can use to make games like A TRILLION TIMES BETTER!

In fact, I'll bet that during the lifetime of the Xbone/PS4, we'll see no more than a handful of games actually utilizing "TEH CLOUD!" for anything more than dedicated servers.

Creston
 
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26. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 17:09 Tumbler
 
Once something is out there for the XBOne, it's supported on the Cloud. The amount of money Microsoft would gain from taking it down would be pennies a month.

You know dividends are paid in pennies per share. This is a sales pitch.

MS can't even keep content that was sold on XBLA in storage so that people can re download it. Cyberball 2072 comes to mind, went looking for it and wanted to play. It's no longer on XBLA. You can't even download it if you've purchased in the past. (Like I did) (2007 if you're wondering)

They pull stuff off the current xbox "cloud" right now to save money. Just like EA shuts down servers for older games. They're saving pennies doing it but that is ok with them, they don't want to spend 1 penny more than absolutely necessary.
 
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25. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:56 Redmask
 
1badmf wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:00:
the things i mentioned aren't latency dependent - you can do all that processing on the server without transmitting them to the client, which is why i liked the idea. all that the client needs to know is whether and where a hit is scored, or how something moves, which is something that has to be done anyway. there's no need to transmit the actual physics/AI calculations. so in the end there's no added bandwidth usage.

These consoles have 8 cores to use and multithreading only goes so far so they will have plenty of spare resources to do these things with, there is no need to offload anything to the cloud for the foreseeable future. Why would a developer bother when they can only implement it on one platform out of a possible 2, if not 3 if we include the pity Wii U option?
 
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24. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:45 Beamer
 
Tumbler wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:39:
It's sad to think that people believe this crap about the cloud. Having online servers can be useful but they have to be paid for. MS hasn't been all that generous with it's users or it's devs. Overpriced content on XBLA, $60 fee to see advertising, $40,000 fee for patches, forcing prices on DLC...yeah suddenly MS is going to give everyone free dedicated servers!

Wake up people. Whatever they offer will be premium priced.

Uh... no. Not really. You're missing the whole concept of "cloud." Microsoft is building out its server farm with that $700MM expansion we keep hearing about. Incrementally, adding a few virtual servers or removing them is nothing. Which is why I keep hearing that this is all included in the basic package - if a dev decides to use the Cloud its a lump fee, as Microsoft has incentive to make sure this is cheap and lasting, otherwise no one would use it.

You're right that XBL is premium priced, and you're right that patches cost a ridiculous amount. But, and it's all hearsay but makes sense, I don't think there will be a monthly charge for cloud access to developers. Once something is out there for the XBOne, it's supported on the Cloud. The amount of money Microsoft would gain from taking it down would be pennies a month.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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23. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:41 Beamer
 
Did they really talk about small mechs?


The most interesting cloud usage, to me, is what I think Destiny said they'd do. You'd be playing, either solo or co-op, but suddenly you'd come across a giant battlefield full of humans fighting against a massive alien army, with the humans all being actual people. You'd join the fight, it'd be chaos, then you'd go back on your way with your individual party.

Now, there are obvious issues with this. For one, what happens if you play 2 years after launch and there are no more giant, simultaneous groups? And how does this work with plotting? But, for a game like Borderlands 3, I think this could be amazing. You'd occasionally see other parties going through the Wasteland and maybe could take pot-shots at them. Loot would be instanced, and maybe PvP would be disabled as it isn't the point, but it would just add character and personality. Maybe you just saw a party in the distance and could go up to them and trade. Maybe even exchange quests. If you're two small parties maybe join up. Then you just go off on your way.

Nothing is quite that easy, and none of this really requires the "cloud," but I think these things could be cool.
 
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22. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:39 Tumbler
 
It's sad to think that people believe this crap about the cloud. Having online servers can be useful but they have to be paid for. MS hasn't been all that generous with it's users or it's devs. Overpriced content on XBLA, $60 fee to see advertising, $40,000 fee for patches, forcing prices on DLC...yeah suddenly MS is going to give everyone free dedicated servers!

Wake up people. Whatever they offer will be premium priced.
 
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21. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:23 Creston
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:10:
Creston wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:00:
Verno wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:06:
Respawn just detailed their "cloud functionality" and its basically dedicated servers, none of those other things.

Not a week ago they were bleating how in Titanfall you'd have these "armies" of small mechs running around, and those armies would all be powered by the Cloud.

Rolleyes

Creston
You don't understand !!

Oh, right, I forgot. ITS TEH CLOUD! ITS LIKE FOUR XBONES!!!1111!1one!

:-infiniterolleyes-:

Creston
 
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20. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:10 SpectralMeat
 
Creston wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 16:00:
Verno wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:06:
Respawn just detailed their "cloud functionality" and its basically dedicated servers, none of those other things.

Not a week ago they were bleating how in Titanfall you'd have these "armies" of small mechs running around, and those armies would all be powered by the Cloud.

Rolleyes

Creston
You don't understand !!
 
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19. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:00 1badmf
 
the things i mentioned aren't latency dependent - you can do all that processing on the server without transmitting them to the client, which is why i liked the idea. all that the client needs to know is whether and where a hit is scored, or how something moves, which is something that has to be done anyway. there's no need to transmit the actual physics/AI calculations. so in the end there's no added bandwidth usage.  
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18. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 16:00 Creston
 
Verno wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:06:
Respawn just detailed their "cloud functionality" and its basically dedicated servers, none of those other things.

Not a week ago they were bleating how in Titanfall you'd have these "armies" of small mechs running around, and those armies would all be powered by the Cloud.

Rolleyes

Creston
 
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17. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 15:25 Beamer
 
SpectralMeat wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:51:
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:47:
Verno wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:06:
1badmf wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:02:
i've actually liked a lot of what i've heard about MS's cloud. aside from saves and dedicated servers, they also offer the ability to run all physics/AI/hit detection/etc on the server, not only freeing up clients to run higher fps, but a more hackproof game. also with a massive server farm, it's literally no effort to add/subtract servers as demand requires.

I am very dubious of those claims given the latency complications and other problematic aspects for development. Respawn just detailed their "cloud functionality" and its basically dedicated servers, none of those other things. It's very difficult to create a one platform solution anyway even assuming a perfect world where latency doesn't matter. I'm sure Microsoft has given people the ability to use their server farms to do many things, how many of those things are feasible is a different story.

My thoughts too. While it might be technically possible to use the cloud for things like physics, it might not be feasible or practical. Onlive was technically possible, too. But it didn't really work well unless you lived very close to a server hub. Outsourcing those things might require the perfect combination of location and bandwidth, which won't exist for the vast majority of users.
Not to mention only xbone exclusive games can use that as Sony will not have the same cloud functionality as Microsoft.
If devs ever want their games to be cross platform, and why wouldn't they want that, then Microsoft cloud doesn't make much sense.

Yup.
Dedicated servers are the primary use we'll see.
 
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16. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 14:51 SpectralMeat
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:47:
Verno wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:06:
1badmf wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:02:
i've actually liked a lot of what i've heard about MS's cloud. aside from saves and dedicated servers, they also offer the ability to run all physics/AI/hit detection/etc on the server, not only freeing up clients to run higher fps, but a more hackproof game. also with a massive server farm, it's literally no effort to add/subtract servers as demand requires.

I am very dubious of those claims given the latency complications and other problematic aspects for development. Respawn just detailed their "cloud functionality" and its basically dedicated servers, none of those other things. It's very difficult to create a one platform solution anyway even assuming a perfect world where latency doesn't matter. I'm sure Microsoft has given people the ability to use their server farms to do many things, how many of those things are feasible is a different story.

My thoughts too. While it might be technically possible to use the cloud for things like physics, it might not be feasible or practical. Onlive was technically possible, too. But it didn't really work well unless you lived very close to a server hub. Outsourcing those things might require the perfect combination of location and bandwidth, which won't exist for the vast majority of users.
Not to mention only xbone exclusive games can use that as Sony will not have the same cloud functionality as Microsoft.
If devs ever want their games to be cross platform, and why wouldn't they want that, then Microsoft cloud doesn't make much sense.
 
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15. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 14:48 jdreyer
 
Is Microsoft About to Change Its Tune on Indie Development?

They'd be stupid not to...
 
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14. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 25, 2013, 14:47 jdreyer
 
Verno wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:06:
1badmf wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 14:02:
i've actually liked a lot of what i've heard about MS's cloud. aside from saves and dedicated servers, they also offer the ability to run all physics/AI/hit detection/etc on the server, not only freeing up clients to run higher fps, but a more hackproof game. also with a massive server farm, it's literally no effort to add/subtract servers as demand requires.

I am very dubious of those claims given the latency complications and other problematic aspects for development. Respawn just detailed their "cloud functionality" and its basically dedicated servers, none of those other things. It's very difficult to create a one platform solution anyway even assuming a perfect world where latency doesn't matter. I'm sure Microsoft has given people the ability to use their server farms to do many things, how many of those things are feasible is a different story.

My thoughts too. While it might be technically possible to use the cloud for things like physics, it might not be feasible or practical. Onlive was technically possible, too. But it didn't really work well unless you lived very close to a server hub. Outsourcing those things might require the perfect combination of location and bandwidth, which won't exist for the vast majority of users.
 
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