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Morning Legal Briefs

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48. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 26, 2013, 08:47 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 20:12:
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 04:36:
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:33:
Transparency also sounds well and good, but a government can't be transparent about everything and still operate.

Completely untrue. Secrecy is the antithesis of democracy.

Really?
So you think we can actually run a department of defense with complete transparency? We should be putting on the internet somewhere every single thing that we do?

How about the CIA? "Complete transparency" would mean that RollinThundr could sit there and look at the names and locations of all CIA agents worldwide. That's the extreme, but just evidence that some things can't be transparent.

There's a line, and those of you saying all transparency are bad are using blanket statements you shouldn't. Hell, should the FDA be completely transparent on everything it's investigating? Its decisions can drastically change the economy, which is why they usually don't show transparency until they actually make a decision - letting people know what they're working on just causes too much speculation and too little stability.

I am with you guys that we haven't been transparent enough, but some of you are using absolute terminology that's just ridiculous.

Obviously they're not going to put military plans on google don't be ridiculous. But your boy Obama promised change, promised transparency and communication with US, THE PEOPLE, and we got none of that, instead he continued the mistake of the patriot act and went one further by drone striking US citizens. No Beamer we're not moving towards totalitarian rule at all.

For example, how many more times are we going to hear "you have to pass this to know what's in it" from this administration?

How many people with any sort of intelligence actually agree with Obamacare?

See where I'm going with this?
 
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47. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 26, 2013, 08:00 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 26, 2013, 02:28:
Just because we are spying doesn't mean we have to be. Just because we have bases all over the world doesn't mean we have to. There is a vast overabundance of secrecy these days, almost all of it completely unnecessary.

You're already hedging back to "almost all," which isn't what you were saying earlier in the thread.

Sorry, some things need to be private, even from the government. Again, I agree that there's too much, but many of the big privacy advocates claim that they want 100% transparency. That's just a dumb concept.

It's like the people that want the government to always do what popular opinion wants. Again, that's idiotic.
 
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46. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 26, 2013, 06:04 InBlack
 
Prez wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 12:34:
I just can't help but find it ironic that Snowden fled the U.S. to go to Communist China and (Communist-in-all-but-name) Russia. I think he would have been better off staying here in the U.S. He is going to have tons of sympathy from a huge number of Americans - it's doubtful to my mind that he would be charged with treason, since that isn't what he commited by definition. He violated a legally-binding signed non-disclosure clause, but that isn't treason.

He is trying to get to Latin America, or possibly Iceland. If you can find a way to get there from Hawaii (by plane) without stopovers at the American mainland or their European allies AND without going through Asia then you sir have won the internet.

Oh and Russia is anything-but-communist, its a right-leaning dictatorship with a free market economy and everything. Oh and China is Communist-in-name-only, its basically a one party socialist state with a free market economy and everything. In fact if you take the US and substract one party you would proably get something very similar to whats going on in China...

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 2013, 06:15.
 
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45. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 26, 2013, 02:28 jdreyer
 
Just because we are spying doesn't mean we have to be. Just because we have bases all over the world doesn't mean we have to. There is a vast overabundance of secrecy these days, almost all of it completely unnecessary.  
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44. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 20:12 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 04:36:
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:33:
Transparency also sounds well and good, but a government can't be transparent about everything and still operate.

Completely untrue. Secrecy is the antithesis of democracy.

Really?
So you think we can actually run a department of defense with complete transparency? We should be putting on the internet somewhere every single thing that we do?

How about the CIA? "Complete transparency" would mean that RollinThundr could sit there and look at the names and locations of all CIA agents worldwide. That's the extreme, but just evidence that some things can't be transparent.

There's a line, and those of you saying all transparency are bad are using blanket statements you shouldn't. Hell, should the FDA be completely transparent on everything it's investigating? Its decisions can drastically change the economy, which is why they usually don't show transparency until they actually make a decision - letting people know what they're working on just causes too much speculation and too little stability.

I am with you guys that we haven't been transparent enough, but some of you are using absolute terminology that's just ridiculous.
 
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43. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 19:17 jdreyer
 
Holy shit. Thundr and I agreed on something political.

*scans skies for meteor while retreating to fallout shelter*
 
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42. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 16:28 RollinThundr
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 04:36:
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:33:
Transparency also sounds well and good, but a government can't be transparent about everything and still operate.

Completely untrue. Secrecy is the antithesis of democracy.

Totally completely untrue, not shocked Beamer is fine with the government not letting the American people know that their own government is spying on them. Not that we didn't really know already anyway.

When the fences go up Beamer you won't get special treatment, keep that in mind.
 
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41. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 08:18 Smellfinger
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 04:34:
And even if a given law passes the Constitution, if a program is secret, then we can not have a discussion about its merits vs. its downsides or potential for abuse.

I don't hold the Constitution in high regard since it's the reason we're living under this federal monstrosity. If we had stayed with the Articles of Confederation, it would have been harder for the political class to consolidate its power and eviscerate what little freedom we had in the first place.
 
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40. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 08:12 gray
 
What the US does is a joke compared to what the UK does. (At least when seen from over here) while you may argue that PRISM has a valid anti terror reason, the british government is spying on EVERYTHING that travels trough the fiber cables, which includes military and political secret correspondance, including corporate level stuff.

The project is called Tempura and is run by NSA analysts operating from the UK to bypass local spying laws in the USA. It's all you I'm afraid.
 
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39. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 04:44 jdreyer
 
Asmo wrote on Jun 25, 2013, 01:22:
And when humans like Manning and Snowden make the sacrifice and instead of just accepting status quo and letting apathy win, they stand up and do something?

Sometimes it takes martyrs, "criminals" and patriots to stand up when everyone else is too afraid or too lazy.

Rosa Parks didn't just sit in the front of the bus because she was tired. She was breaking the law to draw attention a vast system of laws that were wrong. The same with Snowden's leak.

The problem with Snowden is that he went public, and now the story is about him, and no longer about the issues he raised by releasing those documents. There was no need for him to go public. It has just served as a distraction.
 
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38. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 04:36 jdreyer
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:33:
Transparency also sounds well and good, but a government can't be transparent about everything and still operate.

Completely untrue. Secrecy is the antithesis of democracy.
 
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"It's just a bunch of mystic bovine scatology to me." - 1badmf
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37. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 04:34 jdreyer
 
Verno wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:31:
The irony here is that PRISM took place within the legal confines of the system.

That's the rub with secret programs like this, isn't it? ALL laws get trumped by the Constitution, but if these laws are secret, then we can't assess that and challenge it, can we?

And even if a given law passes the Constitution, if a program is secret, then we can not have a discussion about its merits vs. its downsides or potential for abuse. Examples: Innocent people get put on the no-fly list without explanation or recourse. And a journalist outspoken on this very issue had his private flight information made public by a gov't analyst with access to said info.
 
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36. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 03:54 shihonage
 
Verno is the voice of sanity in this thread.

Americans have it too good to understand how much worse others countries have it, even the supposedly "free" ones (on paper). And those from other countries have misplaced pride so they won't admit that America still enjoys more freedoms than they do.

And not just freedoms, but everyday conveniences, opportunities and individual wealth.

That said, under King Obama the country has definitely taken a big step toward dictatorship and general third-worldliness.
 
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35. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 01:22 Asmo
 
Verno wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:31:
When the people don't care transparency of course the government will abuse it, the default state of humanity is continually reach for more and government is of the people. When you get right down to it all government is a form of oppression, society in general is a series of trade offs that you make to hopefully your benefit. If people will tolerate their privacy being given up (and it appears they will) then I don't necessarily like that but to say it's the governments fault alone is pretty asinine. There is plenty of blame to go around and we need look no further than ourselves for not demanding accountability and oversight. The irony here is that PRISM took place within the legal confines of the system.

And when humans like Manning and Snowden make the sacrifice and instead of just accepting status quo and letting apathy win, they stand up and do something?

Sometimes it takes martyrs, "criminals" and patriots to stand up when everyone else is too afraid or too lazy.
 
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34. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 23:17 NegaDeath
 
Sepharo wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 22:23:
Perhaps he meant secret courts and secret warrants.

There's also secret legal interpretations of laws that they refuse to release.
 
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33. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 22:23 Sepharo
 
Perhaps he meant secret courts and secret warrants.  
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32. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 21:00 Beamer
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 20:56:
Democratic government is also supposed to be held accountable for it's decisions and laws. Secret laws make it a shadow government that is no longer democratically legitimized..

Which laws are secret?
That's not a rhetorical or obnoxious question, I'm just wondering if some "secret laws" have come out. "Secret laws" would absolutely be unconstitutional.

More likely this is all secretive usage of existing laws, or loopholes in laws.
 
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31. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 20:56 eRe4s3r
 
Democratic government is also supposed to be held accountable for it's decisions and laws. Secret laws make it a shadow government that is no longer democratically legitimized..  
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30. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 20:33 Beamer
 
Transparency also sounds well and good, but a government can't be transparent about everything and still operate.  
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29. Re: Morning Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 20:31 Verno
 
Asmo wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 19:48:
Essentially your argument boils down to:

When the people don't care transparency of course the government will abuse it, the default state of humanity is continually reach for more and government is of the people. When you get right down to it all government is a form of oppression, society in general is a series of trade offs that you make to hopefully your benefit. If people will tolerate their privacy being given up (and it appears they will) then I don't necessarily like that but to say it's the governments fault alone is pretty asinine. There is plenty of blame to go around and we need look no further than ourselves for not demanding accountability and oversight. The irony here is that PRISM took place within the legal confines of the system.
 
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