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Sunday Legal Briefs

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20. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 25, 2013, 00:06 JohnnyRotten
 
ASeven wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 12:37:
Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The law is not always right, in fact it's often wrong. Considering NSA may have spied on foreign countries, from where I'm standing they did something illegal, and even if it's legal within the US it sure as fuck ain't right.

I refer you to this article.

Of course it's legal. The government is the sole mechanism that defines "legal". And if by some minor coincidence, some "I" isn't dotted or some "T" isn't crossed, the government will retroactively make it "legal". Every government in history, despotic or otherwise, has without exception, only done "legal" things inside of their own framework.

Therefore, it's a meaningless word in this context. And to waste even a second debating whether the team that makes up the rules as they go is following them accomplishes nothing, and is a suckers game for children.

"But, the Constitution." you say (in the specific case here of the runaway US government). Fuck you I say. You don't have a single right, you have privileges which any branch or minor bureaucrat of the federal government can revoke (or simply refuse to recognize at all) at will.

"But it limits the government only to powers expressly laid out in the document," you say. Fuck you again I say. That piece of paper doesn't mean a goddamned thing without the will and discipline to enforce it.

That document is dead, dead, dead. And there isn't any amount of bitching now that is going to change any of it. The power has long since left the hands of the people. You don't get a say in what happens next. But feel free to quibble over the details about how fucked we are.
 
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19. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 13:02 ASeven
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 12:41:
I never said it was right. I specifically said "doesn't make it better." It may even make it worse.

But you called it illegal. Illegal isn't subjective, it's objective. If there's no law forbidding something, then it is not illegal. It may not be right, such as this case, but it isn't illegal. Running around calling it such just hinders your argument, because the counterargument is just "it isn't illegal, and here's why" and suddenly you've lost your point.

Argue that it's an outrage and should be illegal. Don't yell "it's illegal" unless you can point to the law that says it as such.

That Techdirt article is good. It basically says what I said here in that, what's worse, is that they didn't need to change laws to do this. That Techdirt article, though, kind of proves my argument that this wasn't illegal.

That isn't defending it, it's just trying to get people to use the correct argument.

It's a great Techdirt article. But I live in one of the countries in the EU that (if what has been brought to public is true) appears to have been the target of NSA's PRISM. From my standpoint, it is illegal because the laws in this country make it so. It may be legal in the US, doesn't make it legal in the countries where they spied on citizens.
 
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18. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 12:41 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 12:37:
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 10:36:
Verno wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 08:57:
I don't really understand the hero worship, looking at what they were actually collecting surprised me because I had assumed it would be much worse based on all of the press coverage. They were doing it legally from what I can tell too, just not with a lot of public awareness. The public will forget anyways when the next celebrity dies so I think this whole thing will be in vain.

Yup, it 100% looks legal, which is why I don't get ASeven't comment. I haven't followed it closely, but it appears to be entirely legal.

Which doesn't make it better, but the outrage of "he uncovered the most illegal thing our government is doing" isn't at all correct.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The law is not always right, in fact it's often wrong. Considering NSA may have spied on foreign countries, from where I'm standing they did something illegal, and even if it's legal within the US it sure as fuck ain't right.

I refer you to this article.

I never said it was right. I specifically said "doesn't make it better." It may even make it worse.

But you called it illegal. Illegal isn't subjective, it's objective. If there's no law forbidding something, then it is not illegal. It may not be right, such as this case, but it isn't illegal. Running around calling it such just hinders your argument, because the counterargument is just "it isn't illegal, and here's why" and suddenly you've lost your point.

Argue that it's an outrage and should be illegal. Don't yell "it's illegal" unless you can point to the law that says it as such.

That Techdirt article is good. It basically says what I said here in that, what's worse, is that they didn't need to change laws to do this. That Techdirt article, though, kind of proves my argument that this wasn't illegal.

That isn't defending it, it's just trying to get people to use the correct argument.
 
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17. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 12:37 ASeven
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 10:36:
Verno wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 08:57:
I don't really understand the hero worship, looking at what they were actually collecting surprised me because I had assumed it would be much worse based on all of the press coverage. They were doing it legally from what I can tell too, just not with a lot of public awareness. The public will forget anyways when the next celebrity dies so I think this whole thing will be in vain.

Yup, it 100% looks legal, which is why I don't get ASeven't comment. I haven't followed it closely, but it appears to be entirely legal.

Which doesn't make it better, but the outrage of "he uncovered the most illegal thing our government is doing" isn't at all correct.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The law is not always right, in fact it's often wrong. Considering NSA may have spied on foreign countries, from where I'm standing they did something illegal, and even if it's legal within the US it sure as fuck ain't right.

I refer you to this article.
 
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16. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 11:47 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 10:36:
Verno wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 08:57:
I don't really understand the hero worship, looking at what they were actually collecting surprised me because I had assumed it would be much worse based on all of the press coverage. They were doing it legally from what I can tell too, just not with a lot of public awareness. The public will forget anyways when the next celebrity dies so I think this whole thing will be in vain.

Yup, it 100% looks legal, which is why I don't get ASeven't comment. I haven't followed it closely, but it appears to be entirely legal.

Which doesn't make it better, but the outrage of "he uncovered the most illegal thing our government is doing" isn't at all correct.

Legal or not the US government should not be recording peoples phone conversations, regardless of which party is in office.
 
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15. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 10:36 Beamer
 
Verno wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 08:57:
I don't really understand the hero worship, looking at what they were actually collecting surprised me because I had assumed it would be much worse based on all of the press coverage. They were doing it legally from what I can tell too, just not with a lot of public awareness. The public will forget anyways when the next celebrity dies so I think this whole thing will be in vain.

Yup, it 100% looks legal, which is why I don't get ASeven't comment. I haven't followed it closely, but it appears to be entirely legal.

Which doesn't make it better, but the outrage of "he uncovered the most illegal thing our government is doing" isn't at all correct.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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14. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 10:10 nin
 
avianflu wrote on Jun 24, 2013, 10:07:
As long as Snowden is on the run, the press wont let the topic die. It makes good copy.


Speaking of the press, I'm laughing my ass off. They got stuck on a 12 hour flight with no interview, no alcohol, and a 3 day stay in Cuba.

 
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13. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 10:07 avianflu
 

As long as Snowden is on the run, the press wont let the topic die. It makes good copy.
 
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12. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 08:58 RollinThundr
 
Julio wrote on Jun 23, 2013, 16:44:
Creston wrote on Jun 23, 2013, 16:39:
3) Murder an entire orphanage.

That wouldn't be on the radar for the US government as an issue would it?

Only if the left could then use it as fuel to strip your 2nd amendment rights.
 
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11. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 08:57 Verno
 
I don't really understand the hero worship, looking at what they were actually collecting surprised me because I had assumed it would be much worse based on all of the press coverage. They were doing it legally from what I can tell too, just not with a lot of public awareness. The public will forget anyways when the next celebrity dies so I think this whole thing will be in vain.  
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10. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 24, 2013, 02:23 LittleMe
 
If we had ceremonies or parades all around the country that celebrated Snowden that would be cool. I believe there's more we don't know. What a better place the country would be if more people did the same.

This comment was edited on Jun 24, 2013, 02:35.
 
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9. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 20:01 Creston
 
Julio wrote on Jun 23, 2013, 16:44:
Creston wrote on Jun 23, 2013, 16:39:
3) Murder an entire orphanage.

That wouldn't be on the radar for the US government as an issue would it?

It's not a pressing concern, no. But OMG, HE REVEALED SOME DOCUMENTS! TEH TRAITOR! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

Fucktard government.

Creston
 
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8. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 17:37 Cutter
 
Snowden is a hero. He could have went for himself, but he went for the right thing instead. That's the very definition of hero. Doesn't matter where he goes though. The gubment will illegally kidnap him and bring him back if they can't do it legally. Count on it.
 
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7. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 17:06 eRe4s3r
 
You can't think like that. Just because "some" people don't care, doesn't mean YOU should not. Times are changing and if the few people who give a damn aren't pushing things will change for the worse.

To me, Snowden is a hero. Not because of Prism, but because of Tempora. Which is FAR FAR worse than PRISM.
 
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6. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 16:44 Julio
 
Creston wrote on Jun 23, 2013, 16:39:
3) Murder an entire orphanage.

That wouldn't be on the radar for the US government as an issue would it?
 
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5. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 16:39 Creston
 
ASeven wrote on Jun 23, 2013, 15:47:
That Snowden is now being persecuted of spying when he exposed one of the most illegal crap the US government has done since Watergate tells a lot about how bad the US are right now in respecting human rights.

That's not just in the US, though. The three worst things you can do, in order:

1) Evade taxes.
1B) Whistleblow on the government.
3) Murder an entire orphanage.

Every government goes after guys like Snowden as if the entire planet's wellbeing hangs in the balance. Fucking government.

Creston
 
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4. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 16:35 Redmask
 
He's going to live the rest of his life on the run and for what? People share more information than PRISM was collecting with advertisers every day, many of them flouting law and regulation. Here Google and Apple, please have our GPS location 24/7 from our phones, dig through our email and create advertising profiles of everyone. Hell, people want to put a plastic videogame console with a permanent internet connection and a camera into their living room but shit, don't let the NSA know the length of our phone calls!!

I don't know what he was hoping to accomplish here but people readily give up more than the NSA could ever hope to passively collect. People by and large do not care about privacy anymore.
 
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3. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 16:16 DangerDog
 
Ecuador just rose to the top of the "axis of evil" nations list.

I wish the guy luck but he's got many sleepless nights ahead of him, most likely for the rest of his life.
 
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2. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 15:47 ASeven
 
That Snowden is now being persecuted of spying when he exposed one of the most illegal crap the US government has done since Watergate tells a lot about how bad the US are right now in respecting human rights.  
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1. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 23, 2013, 15:33 eRe4s3r
 
Note to self: When in need of moving to a country that respects my civil rights, Ecuador is apparently high up there. And if you know how Ecuador suffered during colonization the irony is not lost on you....  
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