Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:

Regularly scheduled events

Evening Consolidation

View
39 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 ] Older >

39. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 24, 2013, 10:14 avianflu
 
V, the issue of "they were going to do that anyway" applies to what devs and pubs will do on the other consoles.

 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
38. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 22, 2013, 10:18 Prez
 
mag wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 01:13:
CliffyB wrote:
Crying

Exactly. I's the idiotic publishers who want to blow through millions upon millions of dollars in stupid marketing tricks and on superfluous nonsense that make up what they call "AAA" games. How that is suddenly the consumer's problem is mind-boggling.

JohnnyRotten wrote on Jun 20, 2013, 23:08:
On the Beleszinski front, I thought Jim Sterling put it best:

Used games and 'AAA' games are incompatible? Good!

It's a strange day indeed when I agree with Jim Sterling. I hardly ever do, but he's dead on in this case.

This comment was edited on Jun 22, 2013, 10:25.
 
Avatar 17185
 
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
37. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 22, 2013, 07:50 Smellfinger
 
NKD wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 01:36:
CliffyB is right about one thing: More tacked on multiplayer to "justify" online requirements and DLC rape is coming. If they can't get their money by killing used game sales, they'll find it somewhere else.

But that was going to happen regardless of Microsoft's used game policy.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
36. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 16:10 HorrorScope
 
JohnnyRotten wrote on Jun 20, 2013, 23:08:
On the Beleszinski front, I thought Jim Sterling put it best:

Used games and 'AAA' games are incompatible? Good!

That should be taken straight to the medical sector. We cannot afford unlimited R&D and then pass that on to customers/companies. There needs to be a limit of which you work within and hope solutions are found from there. Otherwise.... belly up.
 
Avatar 17232
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
35. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 13:49 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 13:05:
Beamer wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 11:53:
I don't think that can be true. Steam takes a 30% cut, I believe, so they wouldn't be able to drop below that.

Plus, even still, I wouldn't hold it beyond a company like EA (wait, bad example) or Activision to pull their games from Steam in that case, because it "damages their IP" or some such nonsense.

But I'm basing this on assumptions.

That's true. Maybe he said he had to give publishers the same percentage and that made it okay. It's been awhile, and a cursory google search didn't really turn up anything either.

Creston

Yeah, all we can really do is speculate, but I'm pretty sure that there needs to be buy in on the deals if it's below that 30%. I think a few indies have mentioned this when discussing how drastically those deals increased their sales.

 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
34. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 13:05 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 11:53:
I don't think that can be true. Steam takes a 30% cut, I believe, so they wouldn't be able to drop below that.

Plus, even still, I wouldn't hold it beyond a company like EA (wait, bad example) or Activision to pull their games from Steam in that case, because it "damages their IP" or some such nonsense.

But I'm basing this on assumptions.

That's true. Maybe he said he had to give publishers the same percentage and that made it okay. It's been awhile, and a cursory google search didn't really turn up anything either.

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
33. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 12:50 JohnnyRotten
 
Ozmodan wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 11:53:
Balmer should have left when Gates left. The company has been in a tailspin since.

They should fire the entire marketing dept after that xbox one fiasco.

There is a phenomenal second article about MS issues that is well worth the read (it was linked to in the original):

Microsoft's Lost Decade
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
32. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 11:53 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 11:44:
Beamer wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 10:42:
The comparisons to other industries don't work. Except, you know, maybe to the PC gaming industry, where Steam's lack of used games, sharing games and piracy has led to prices absolutely plummeting (yeah, Valve being innovative and caring about customer first plays into this, but Valve still needs to convince the developers/publishers to play along, and it's the enormous revenue driven from no used, no sharing and lessened piracy that gets them to buy in.)

Didn't Gabe say that the reason Valve can put so many games on sale is because they give the publisher the same cut as always? So they do it without publisher approval?

Maybe I'm remembering what he said wrong.

Creston

I don't think that can be true. Steam takes a 30% cut, I believe, so they wouldn't be able to drop below that.

Plus, even still, I wouldn't hold it beyond a company like EA (wait, bad example) or Activision to pull their games from Steam in that case, because it "damages their IP" or some such nonsense.

But I'm basing this on assumptions.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
31. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 11:53 Ozmodan
 
Balmer should have left when Gates left. The company has been in a tailspin since.

They should fire the entire marketing dept after that xbox one fiasco.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
30. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 11:44 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 10:42:
The comparisons to other industries don't work. Except, you know, maybe to the PC gaming industry, where Steam's lack of used games, sharing games and piracy has led to prices absolutely plummeting (yeah, Valve being innovative and caring about customer first plays into this, but Valve still needs to convince the developers/publishers to play along, and it's the enormous revenue driven from no used, no sharing and lessened piracy that gets them to buy in.)

Didn't Gabe say that the reason Valve can put so many games on sale is because they give the publisher the same cut as always? So they do it without publisher approval?

Maybe I'm remembering what he said wrong.

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
29. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 11:41 Creston
 
Redmask wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 07:16:
.... 8 paragraphs of TRUTH

Well said, man. Well said.

I can't wait for the dumb-ass game industry to collapse. Maybe THEN something will change. And every big publisher that goes belly-up in the meantime, I will just giggle at their stupidity/utter ineptitude.

These are corporations with BILLION dollar revenues, and yet somehow they can't make a profit. Fuck them. In any other industry in the world, they would have long since been wiped out, but I guess people who buy shares in game publishers keep believing that THEIR CoD is just around the corner or something?

The biggest laughbarf I get out of that whole blezinski quote is that he's bitching that you can't have marketing budgets this big yadda yadda. The game budgets, okay, at least we benefit from that. But the marketing budgets, cuntyb??? Which gamer on earth gives ONE FLYING FUCK about the MARKETING budgets??? Shove that budget up your ass and fucking choke on it.

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
28. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 10:56 NKD
 
Cutter wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 09:25:
It's funny, innit? And then look at Valve and TF2. Not only do they not have to waste money on developing DLC they get other people to do it and pay them for it and make money on that! Funny how Valve never needs to much advertise or do all the things these other guys claim they need to do and still make money hand over fist and generate a ton of goodwill and trust amongst gamers. It just goes to show the difference in companies whose sole motivation is making money versus one doing what they love. You'd think this was rocket surgery or something.

Valve is privately held, self-publishes, and makes all its money off Steam, not off TF2. Not every studio has the luxury of being able to just roll their desks around and do whatever they want and still have the electricity on the next day. People really need to stop pointing at Valve as the example of how to do things, they are an exception and not everyone can have a Steam cash cow basically making it so they'll never need to release a title again.

No, "doing what you love" isn't some magical formula for success. A lot of companies did that and went under. That's why the ones that are left are largely overly greedy assholes.

Valve's in a great position, but the reality of game development is that most companies do need to be concerned about maximizing the amount of money they make from each title. And frankly, it's too late for most of them to turn that around. They have themselves locked in to this DLC rape business model until the bubble bursts.

In the long term, after things hit rock bottom, companies that survive will need to rethink getting themselves into a position where they have to sell 11ty billion copies and 20 billion DLCs just to break even.

 
Avatar 43041
 
If you don't like where gaming is heading, stop giving your money to the people who are taking it in that direction.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
27. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 10:47 JohnnyRotten
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 10:42:
The purchase cycle does NOT work that way for games. People tend to either be used buyers or new buyers.

How did you come to that conclusion?
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
26. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 10:42 Beamer
 
MindStalker3 wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 07:26:
atomicfro wrote on Jun 20, 2013, 21:23:
You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing. The numbers do NOT work people.

How does the movie industry do it then? If the numbers aren't working YOU are doing it wrong. And it doesn't cost me $60 to watch a movie or buy it on disc.

You can easily spend $40-$60 for an entire family to attend a movie together. You generally don't buy much more than 1 copy of a game per family.

Ug. Please, we need to stop with the Movies analogy and the Used cars analogy.

Revenue streams for movies:
Product Placement -> Theaters -> Merchandising and toys -> DVDs -> Mainstream Cable -> Basic Cable -> Television -> Netflix

Revenue streams for games:
Launch -> DLC -> Merchandising and toys (typically on a much smaller scale.)

Most movies bring in money for years. Most games do not.



As for the used cars angle, well, cars are priced high because of it. Often very high. Manufacturers count on the used market to put more money in the pockets of the first buyers so that they buy more often. They are part of a cycle that leads to more money in the pockets of every member of that purchase cycle.
The purchase cycle does NOT work that way for games. People tend to either be used buyers or new buyers. Used buyers feed each other, new buyers feed the industry. There's no clear path you can follow the money from used purchasers to developers the way you can from a used car buyer to a car manufacturer. Used cars are also objectively less valuable than new cars. They are dinged, damaged, and may have mechanical issues you cannot even see. Used games are objectively identical - they either run or they do not (and yeah, the case may be dinged, but that doesn't reduce value, and you can almost always find one on the shelf next to it without a dinged case.)

The comparisons to other industries don't work. Except, you know, maybe to the PC gaming industry, where Steam's lack of used games, sharing games and piracy has led to prices absolutely plummeting (yeah, Valve being innovative and caring about customer first plays into this, but Valve still needs to convince the developers/publishers to play along, and it's the enormous revenue driven from no used, no sharing and lessened piracy that gets them to buy in.)
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
25. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 09:25 Cutter
 
Redmask wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 07:16:
But you are all to blame because you didn't buy the game day 1 and get the DLC with it. Fuck you, gamers, you're killing us! I just spent $10 million realistically modeling this fucking dog and you didn't buy my $15 map pack, you're killing me!

It's funny, innit? And then look at Valve and TF2. Not only do they not have to waste money on developing DLC they get other people to do it and pay them for it and make money on that! Funny how Valve never needs to much advertise or do all the things these other guys claim they need to do and still make money hand over fist and generate a ton of goodwill and trust amongst gamers. It just goes to show the difference in companies whose sole motivation is making money versus one doing what they love. You'd think this was rocket surgery or something.
 
Avatar 25394
 
"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
24. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 08:56 Verno
 
CliffyB is wrong. They were going to do that anyway, there is no such thing as enough money for publishers. They are a money sucking black hole, they weren't just going to do digital sales and skip happily off into the sunset. They were going to say thanks you dipshit customers, now give us more money! They will never, ever stop trying to invent new and invasive revenue streams. Most of them are large corporations where making money is their fucking mandate after all.

CliffyB talking about more map packs and shit? Hahah what a hypocritical asshole, this guys company made hundreds of GOW DLC alone. The publisher side of the industry will use any excuse to shift things onto the customer but conveniently never really looks at their own practices.

But you are all to blame because you didn't buy the game day 1 and get the DLC with it. Fuck you, gamers, you're killing us! I just spent $10 million realistically modeling this fucking dog and you didn't buy my $15 map pack, you're killing me!

Exactly, this is the kind of wasteful corporate crap that is killing the industry.

This comment was edited on Jun 21, 2013, 09:01.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Gauntlet, Dark Souls 2, Wasteland 2
Watching: Intruders, 24 Live Another Day, The Signal
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
23. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 08:06 InBlack
 
NKD wrote on Jun 21, 2013, 01:36:
CliffyB is right about one thing: More tacked on multiplayer to "justify" online requirements and DLC rape is coming. If they can't get their money by killing used game sales, they'll find it somewhere else.

I've been saying for years that these companies will not just suddenly decide to fire three quarters of their employees, downsize, and start making more reasonably budgeted games. They are going to clamp down and squeeze us for every last fucking drop to cover the ballooning cost of game development. You and I may not pay up, but most of John Q. Fucktards out there will.

Eventually the bottom will fall out, but until that day you can expect things to get worse, not better, because long after you and I have stopped buying in to the Triple-A circlejerk, a lot of other people will still be enabling these companies.

This is the only point that he makes that actually makes sense. The rest is pure egoistical bullshit.
 
Avatar 46994
 
I have a nifty blue line!
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
22. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 07:29 El Pit
 
CliffyB on used cars: destroy them all! Bind driver and car, and once the driver buys a new one, make the used car not work with a new driver! Save the automobile industry: crash your car once you don't want it anymore.

Yours truly,
CliffyB
 
Consoles? I owned two: a Pong clone and an Atari 2600. And that's it.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
21. Re: Beleszinski is a whiner Jun 21, 2013, 07:26 MindStalker3
 
atomicfro wrote on Jun 20, 2013, 21:23:
You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing. The numbers do NOT work people.

How does the movie industry do it then? If the numbers aren't working YOU are doing it wrong. And it doesn't cost me $60 to watch a movie or buy it on disc.

You can easily spend $40-$60 for an entire family to attend a movie together. You generally don't buy much more than 1 copy of a game per family.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
20. Re: Evening Consolidation Jun 21, 2013, 07:16 Redmask
 
I'm so tired of CliffyB's dumb bullshit and people who think that little dumbo has a brain. Here's some facts about used games and their effect on the industry:

Gamestop sells new to used at a ratio of 2:1. If all of their profit from used games disappeared back into the industry overnight it would solve NOTHING. Their last fiscal report was about $2 billion for new hardware versus $1 billion on used. But Gamestop profits off used because you're talking about 20% (at best) retailer cut on new products versus practically 100% on used so it balances out.

Gamestop is the #1 video game retailer in the world. The amount of money and marketing they generate for the industry is so massive that a private press conference is held for them each year in Las Vegas. Cutting them out won't solve shit and publishers begrudgingly know this. And Gamestop can't exist on new products alone. Literally no store that isn't eating profit can subsist on products directly from the manufacturer. They must offer some kind of service or have a better cut on merchandise than the standard 20%. Whether it's a grocery store selling their own brand or Best Buy's Geek Squad, no business can exist by selling directly from the manufacturer. It is economically impossible. Reselling games is necessary to maintain business, pure and simple.

There's more studies and actual evidence to support used games being good for the industry than not. Every time a developer talks about stealing money from their pockets or looks at trophy data to calculate theoretical dollars like that episode of South Park, they are spewing shit from their mouths into your face. You want to know what's killing video games? The price. Sixty dollars for fucking everything and internationally speaking 60usd = 60euro = 60 pounds sterling = 300aus. David Jaffe illustrated this issue up front, saying gamers are getting shafted but when asked about a solution he just shrugged his shoulders. Business as usual in the video game industry. There are 99 problems but not 1 answer.

And games cost too much to develop. Like upwards of $60 million average, too much. Square Enix said that Tomb Raider, Hitman, and Sleeping Dogs were all disappointments despite selling millions! Capcom said Resident Evil 6 bombed and I'm pretty sure it sold 4+ million!!! For the longest time Ubisoft was losing money on AssCreed until the yearly releases started catching up. You have no right to complain about not recouping your money when your $100 million blockbuster bombs. Here's an actual quote from Cliff Bleszinski:

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing. The numbers do NOT work people."

This is a perfect encapsulation of the industry's mindset. Games cost too much to develop so instead of doing what literally any other business in the world is doing to save themselves (downsizing and reorganizing) let's blame someone else! Dear customer, you're to blame for trying to get a good deal in a market that encourages it! The market is to blame for allowing it! The licensee is to blame for not putting a block on the customer! My intern is to blame for not promoting the game harder on Metacritic, everyone is to blame but myself and my business decisions!

When asked about The Witcher 2 and why they weren't working on an Xbox version out the gate, CD Projekt Red basically said it was because they didn't want to spend the money on simultaneous development so they could focus their resources. The Witcher 2 cost about $10-12 million, Xbox 360 version included. The average Call of Duty is upwards of $100 million. EA plasters massive posters on the sides of buses and Times Square or gets superbowl commercials. Do you not see what is wrong with this? A lot of these big budget games could sell themselves based on word alone. Does Call of Duty: Ghosts need any advertising whatsoever to sell over a million units? I don't think so!

But you are all to blame because you didn't buy the game day 1 and get the DLC with it. Fuck you, gamers, you're killing us! I just spent $10 million realistically modeling this fucking dog and you didn't buy my $15 map pack, you're killing me!
 
Avatar 57682
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
39 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 ] Older >


footer

Blue's News logo