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It Came from E3 2013, Part Six

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80. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:34 Slashman
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:18:
Have you seen what this board turns into whenever women and games are mentioned? Probably the only two things there is close to consensus on is Deus Ex and "women needing to shut up." Just search in the sidebar for "sexism" or "feminism" or "tropes." You'll find more than a handful of people comparing women wanting equality to Naziism.

I've been here for a few of those articles and while there are some insensitive morons around(like there are pretty much everywhere), what I find is that people get way too wrapped up in the emotional side of things to ever be truly objective. A lot of the time, people aren't saying that no sexism exists. What they question is the severity and scope of it. And also the number of women who are really even interested in the gaming industry as a whole. Most of the time, one person writes an article about a single bad experience in gaming relating to women and then proceeds to single out every single male gamer in the world as being ultimately responsible for the unacceptable actions of the few. We're not. Trying to somehow pass the guilt of what some idiot said or did online onto me because I happen to be a male gamer, is just plain offensive.

So, if you're a woman, why would you even bother standing up? It's like standing in the Mississippi river and trying to reverse its direction with your hands.

I'm sure plenty of people sat around and said "well, I guess black people deserve equal rights, but until a sufficient amount of them stand up for it, status quo is ok."

Right...because Rosa Parks never bothered. Martin Luther King Junior never bothered. All the black civil rights leaders and the countless people who stood with them. Guess they couldn't stand having their feelings hurt so they did nothing. Just sat around waiting for all the white folks to realize how unfairly they were being treated and to change the system for them. No black people bled or died to make a change for the betterment of their lives and their children's lives.
 
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79. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:30 Prez
 
Interestingly, he's the only person on my ignore list. While we have a lot of stupidity and shills around here, most of them are more than willing to have a civilized if pointless and one-sided debate.


He's the only one on mine too. He is so deluded by his self-perceived superiority to such an extent that any deviation from his stated position puts you squarely in the category of the very villainy that he is raiiling against. Having an opposing opinion to his "perfect" one is akin to a crime.

 
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78. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:22 NKD
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 14:16:
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 14:06:
"You don't agree with me therefore you are RollinThundr and are trolling!"

You know what Beamer? Fuck you, fuck your family, and the fuck the 13 generations of your ancestors.

I try to have a god damn civilized debate, and then you compare me to ROLLINTHUNDR of all people, some god damn right wing lunatic fucktard probably from Texas?

Seriously, eat a bag of dicks and choke to death on them. Welcome to ignore.

Actually I'm from Mass, the liberal bastion of the northeast, where the taxes and cost of living are high, the health care is even higher, thanks to Romneycare, Thanks Mittens! And I'd honestly consider myself more libertarian except when it comes to spending.

When you're knee deep in liberal policy you see how destructive it is. Look at Chicago or Detroit or DC for the perfect example of how NOT to do it.


You should try out west coast liberals, we have a much nicer time. And more weed.
 
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77. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:16 RollinThundr
 
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 14:06:
"You don't agree with me therefore you are RollinThundr and are trolling!"

You know what Beamer? Fuck you, fuck your family, and the fuck the 13 generations of your ancestors.

I try to have a god damn civilized debate, and then you compare me to ROLLINTHUNDR of all people, some god damn right wing lunatic fucktard probably from Texas?

Seriously, eat a bag of dicks and choke to death on them. Welcome to ignore.

Actually I'm from Mass, the liberal bastion of the northeast, where the taxes and cost of living are high, the health care is even higher, thanks to Romneycare, Thanks Mittens! And I'd honestly consider myself more libertarian except when it comes to spending.

When you're knee deep in liberal policy you see how destructive it is. Look at Chicago or Detroit or DC for the perfect example of how NOT to do it.

 
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76. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:15 NKD
 
Prez wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 14:08:
Over 70 posts on a dead horse non issue. Jesus why doesn't everyone just ignore Beamer? He accuses everyone on this site of basically every crime against humanity. He is a fucking troll. Just one that writes in walls of text and likes to club you over the head with his arrogance.

Edit: Very wise choice NKD. He is an absolute waste of skin.

Interestingly, he's the only person on my ignore list. While we have a lot of stupidity and shills around here, most of them are more than willing to have a civilized if pointless and one-sided debate.

Beamer meanwhile basically accuses me of being Hitler when I challenge him to provide a solution to the problem.
 
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75. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:08 Prez
 
Over 70 posts on a dead horse non issue. Jesus why doesn't everyone just ignore Beamer? He accuses everyone on this site of basically every crime against humanity. He is a fucking troll. Just one that writes in walls of text and likes to club you over the head with his arrogance.

Edit: Very wise choice NKD. He is an absolute waste of skin.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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74. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 14:06 NKD
 
"You don't agree with me therefore you are RollinThundr and are trolling!"

You know what Beamer? Fuck you, fuck your family, and the fuck the 13 generations of your ancestors.

I try to have a god damn civilized debate, and then you compare me to ROLLINTHUNDR of all people, some god damn right wing lunatic fucktard probably from Texas?

Seriously, eat a bag of dicks and choke to death on them. Welcome to ignore.
 
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73. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:58 Beamer
 
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:34:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:23:
I mean, how fucking sexist is that term?

What's really sexist is acting as if women need some man sticking up for them to accomplish something. I find white knighting to be sexist chivalristic bullshit extension of the idea that women need to be protected.

Regardless, what the hell do you propose? Articles like this, when written by women, get shot down and responded with "get back in the kitchen." It makes the people on this board every bit as brainless as the ones on Kotaku. That Tropes & Video Games series is absolutely ripped apart with such logical fallacies as "its always been this way" and "stop whining" and "haha vagina."

If you concern yourself with what fucktards like TrollinThundr say and think, you're focusing on the wrong thing. Women don't owe those cavemen a fucking thing, and no number of articles is going to accomplish anything. Trying to convince a bunch of drooling basement-dwellers of your worth is a waste of time. They cannot be turned or convinced, ever. If you're seriously thinking that a well-crafted article and some forum posting is going to turn RollinThundr into an actual human being, I don't know what to say.

Are you proposing they take up violence? Because, clearly, well thought out editorials and videos don't get through the thick skulls of a bunch of scared boys that think they're better.

Taking up violence? No. Taking up C++ Primer Plus, developing a code portfolio, and getting into the industry by just being that damn good? Yes. It's how women are making head way in other male dominated industries. It's slow going, but you get what you work for.

Some idiot trolls on the Internet are not a meaningful barrier. They are noise.

So agreeing with their point of view is "sexist chivalric bullshit." Oh my god. Seriously, holy hell. Wow. So in your mind you're either a passive bystander, a sexist asshole, or a sexist knight?

Are you really that warped?

Honestly, you're not that far from RollinThundr. Most of the comments these topics get are really right in line with him. On this site. This is why this is a huge issue in this industry.

And fuck, why would you ever voluntarily go into an industry in which you're treated like crap? Because you think you can change it? Why intentionally make yourself miserable when there are plenty of other jobs that aren't followed by creepy cretin fanboys?

Sorry, the stuff you're saying is basically trolling. "I find white knighting..." that's troll material.
 
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72. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:52 NKD
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:47:

Lol the wife actually laughed at this post. Sorry not all of us are on the politically correct bandwagon. Some of us aren't afraid to speak their mind and say exactly what they think, and really don't care if people get their panties up in a bunch because of it.


There's a lot of acceptable area you could occupy between "politically correct" and "so god damn backwards he needs to be thrown in a wood chipper.". But no, you insist on lingering near the wood chipper.
 
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71. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:47 RollinThundr
 
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:34:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:23:
I mean, how fucking sexist is that term?

What's really sexist is acting as if women need some man sticking up for them to accomplish something. I find white knighting to be sexist chivalristic bullshit extension of the idea that women need to be protected.

Regardless, what the hell do you propose? Articles like this, when written by women, get shot down and responded with "get back in the kitchen." It makes the people on this board every bit as brainless as the ones on Kotaku. That Tropes & Video Games series is absolutely ripped apart with such logical fallacies as "its always been this way" and "stop whining" and "haha vagina."

If you concern yourself with what fucktards like TrollinThundr say and think, you're focusing on the wrong thing. Women don't owe those cavemen a fucking thing, and no number of articles is going to accomplish anything. Trying to convince a bunch of drooling basement-dwellers of your worth is a waste of time. They cannot be turned or convinced, ever. If you're seriously thinking that a well-crafted article and some forum posting is going to turn RollinThundr into an actual human being, I don't know what to say.

Are you proposing they take up violence? Because, clearly, well thought out editorials and videos don't get through the thick skulls of a bunch of scared boys that think they're better.

Taking up violence? No. Taking up C++ Primer Plus, developing a code portfolio, and getting into the industry by just being that damn good? Yes. It's how women are making head way in other male dominated industries. It's slow going, but you get what you work for.

Some idiot trolls on the Internet are not a meaningful barrier. They are noise.

Lol the wife actually laughed at this post. Sorry not all of us are on the politically correct bandwagon. Some of us aren't afraid to speak their mind and say exactly what they think, and really don't care if people get their panties up in a bunch because of it.

 
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70. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:34 NKD
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:23:
I mean, how fucking sexist is that term?

What's really sexist is acting as if women need some man sticking up for them to accomplish something. I find white knighting to be sexist chivalristic bullshit extension of the idea that women need to be protected.

Regardless, what the hell do you propose? Articles like this, when written by women, get shot down and responded with "get back in the kitchen." It makes the people on this board every bit as brainless as the ones on Kotaku. That Tropes & Video Games series is absolutely ripped apart with such logical fallacies as "its always been this way" and "stop whining" and "haha vagina."

If you concern yourself with what fucktards like TrollinThundr say and think, you're focusing on the wrong thing. Women don't owe those cavemen a fucking thing, and no number of articles is going to accomplish anything. Trying to convince a bunch of drooling basement-dwellers of your worth is a waste of time. They cannot be turned or convinced, ever. If you're seriously thinking that a well-crafted article and some forum posting is going to turn RollinThundr into an actual human being, I don't know what to say.

Are you proposing they take up violence? Because, clearly, well thought out editorials and videos don't get through the thick skulls of a bunch of scared boys that think they're better.

Taking up violence? No. Taking up C++ Primer Plus, developing a code portfolio, and getting into the industry by just being that damn good? Yes. It's how women are making head way in other male dominated industries. It's slow going, but you get what you work for.

Some idiot trolls on the Internet are not a meaningful barrier. They are noise.
 
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If you don't like where gaming is heading, stop giving your money to the people who are taking it in that direction.
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69. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:33 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:23:
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:31:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:06:
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:50:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:26:
Lastly, you guys flame the shit out of those Gaming Tropes & Women videos. Of course no women come here. This site is almost exclusively straight white males (with the occasional netnerd.) Now, is that because only straight white males enjoy video games, or is that because there's something in the culture of video games and proudly on display here that doesn't make other groups feel welcome?

Sexism is a reality of industries with a heavy gender leaning. And like I said earlier, it sounds like a Catch-22, but the solution really is to just market the fuck out of the industry to the female population. The more females there are, the more females will be interested in taking part. And once the gender imbalance starts to level out, you'll see the sexism start to fade away.

In short, sexism doesn't cause the lack of females in the industry, the lack of females in the industry causes the sexism. That imbalance in representation causes females to be considered the "other." and makes it very easy to fall into casual sexism.

We've seen this throughout history. That's just how society works. If you want something, you have to fight for it. If you're sitting around waiting for straight white male sausage fest to stop being sexist, racist, and homophobic, you'll be waiting forever, because it's not going to happen. Put a bunch of similar people together, and very quickly the people who aren't similar become the butt of all the jokes.

If you really believe sexism is the cause of the problem, and not a symptom, then what's the solution? How are you going to get a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males to stop being racist, homophobic and sexist?

I disagree with you on the chicken-egg thing.

And what industries are heavy-gender-leaning against females? Strippers? Hooter's Waitresses?
Even areas that tend to be very female leaning, like fashion and HR, typically have men at the top. How many female fashion designers can you name off the top of your head? How many males? And there are far more male CHROs (going by different titles everywhere) in Fortune 500 companies than female ones, yet HR is a function typically about 85% female.

NKD, a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males can stop being racist, homophobic and sexist by growing some empathy. The most common argument is "blah blah blah ME blah blah blah." They need to learn this isn't about them, or how it makes them feel. Sure, maybe they never yelled "hey, nice ass" at a girl walking down the street, but they're certainly enabling it by defending it here and, in the case of some, claiming it's actually something women want because the one time it happened to their wife she enjoyed it.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone else. And not with your own experiences, but imagine going through life as them.
It really helps.

Or, more importantly, expand your interactions. I'm sure you have other hobbies that attracts a more diverse group of people. Have these discussions with them.

Lastly, accept that you may passively be part of a problem without suddenly feeling like part of a witchhunt, getting defense, and digging further into it. Man, some of the comments in this thread are outright ignorant, followed by "and why do people call me ignorant!" Because you're unwilling to learn and see someone else's point of view (not you NKD, others.)

You're talking about goals, but not offering a solution of how to get there. How are you proposing to instill empathy in someone? You can't get someone to empathize with you if, for all intents and purposes, you don't exist to them. No one is going to learn to empathize with women if there are no women around. Like I said, if you put a bunch of similar people together, quickly the people who are not similar are the butt of all the jokes.

Women have to decide they want to be a part of something, and take it for themselves. They neither need nor want a bunch of white knights. The first blacks to play baseball, or work in various industries, didn't sit around and wait for white people to stop being racist dickbags before they tried to participate. If they had, they'd still be waiting!

No discriminated or oppressed class ever got the respect they deserve by sitting around waiting for charity or waiting for society to change. They fought for that change by putting themselves out there.

I really fail to understand what side your on here.

How do you force change? In some ways its conversation. In other ways, it takes someone being a dick to everyone else forcing what's right. See: women's suffrage.

Women HAVE decided to be a part of something, but the conversation is a losing one. If you're a woman, how many times do you want to be called a "feminazi" by asswipes like RollinThundr before you just give up and decide you really don't want to be around a whole bunch of ignorant morons who use terms like "white knighting?"

And yes, "feminazi" is pretty common around here. RollinThundr and Prez both like the term. "White knight" is one you just used yourself.

Sorry, when one group has power, usually people in that group need to cede power before another group can get that. Use your weasel words if you want, but it doesn't really change that fact.
I don't get why that term only works here, either. Plenty of celebrities that make enormous amounts of money feel that there's a large wealth inequality in this country. People like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, too, talk about it all the time. Are they called "White knights?"

I mean, how fucking sexist is that term?

Regardless, what the hell do you propose? Articles like this, when written by women, get shot down and responded with "get back in the kitchen." It makes the people on this board every bit as brainless as the ones on Kotaku. That Tropes & Video Games series is absolutely ripped apart with such logical fallacies as "its always been this way" and "stop whining" and "haha vagina."

Are you proposing they take up violence? Because, clearly, well thought out editorials and videos don't get through the thick skulls of a bunch of scared boys that think they're better.

You're assuming here that I mean every feminist, I don't. Just the one's that get people fired for making a dongle joke, or using Kickstarter to push forth an agenda on silly gaming tropes. Those types ARE Feminazi's whether you want to admit it or not.

Fact of the matter is most women couldn't care less about gaming. That's just fact. Why should the industry change or make games that don't cater to their actual audience who is going to spend money to buy said game or product in the first place?

When woman seriously start to actually play FPS'es or RTS'es you'd have a point. Until that happens in force you're calling for change where none is needed just to push forth an agenda that there's this huge war on women based on a couple of stupid stupid comments a couple politicians have made.
 
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68. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:25 NKD
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 13:05:
What matters is whether or not our inherent differences might explain the observed results of whatever we are investigating. Despite the decades of promoting STEM careers for women, they still choose those careers way less often than men. Even the "successes" (like the growing number of female engineers) show these differences (when you note that the growth has overwhelmingly been in disciplines like civil engineering... and chemical and mechanical engineering still lags tremendously). Perhaps this may be biological (as men tend to have better 3D visualization skills, but women tend to be better integrators)? Rule that out before you start preaching against the "old boys' club"...

This sounds like the "Blacks are better at some sports, and white people others" argument when the only difference is that blacks play sports that you can get into while being poor, while white people tend to be in rich people sports. There's almost no real science that backs up what you're saying. On the other hand, there's ample science to show that it's almost always social norms, familial pressure and the like that drive people into careers, not natural genetic affinity.

What little actual science sits behind your argument might explain minor differences, but not wholesale inability to perform a task adequately. Every industry where women get a foothold, they tend to do just as well as their male counterparts, if provided equal training and possessing equal dedication.

Your argument is the typical red herring used in just about every discussion on sexism. The number of jobs where males or females can be demonstrated to be better are pretty much limited to physical ones like athletics where differences in muscle mass and bone structure can explain the advantage using simple physics.
 
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67. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:23 Beamer
 
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:31:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:06:
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:50:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:26:
Lastly, you guys flame the shit out of those Gaming Tropes & Women videos. Of course no women come here. This site is almost exclusively straight white males (with the occasional netnerd.) Now, is that because only straight white males enjoy video games, or is that because there's something in the culture of video games and proudly on display here that doesn't make other groups feel welcome?

Sexism is a reality of industries with a heavy gender leaning. And like I said earlier, it sounds like a Catch-22, but the solution really is to just market the fuck out of the industry to the female population. The more females there are, the more females will be interested in taking part. And once the gender imbalance starts to level out, you'll see the sexism start to fade away.

In short, sexism doesn't cause the lack of females in the industry, the lack of females in the industry causes the sexism. That imbalance in representation causes females to be considered the "other." and makes it very easy to fall into casual sexism.

We've seen this throughout history. That's just how society works. If you want something, you have to fight for it. If you're sitting around waiting for straight white male sausage fest to stop being sexist, racist, and homophobic, you'll be waiting forever, because it's not going to happen. Put a bunch of similar people together, and very quickly the people who aren't similar become the butt of all the jokes.

If you really believe sexism is the cause of the problem, and not a symptom, then what's the solution? How are you going to get a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males to stop being racist, homophobic and sexist?

I disagree with you on the chicken-egg thing.

And what industries are heavy-gender-leaning against females? Strippers? Hooter's Waitresses?
Even areas that tend to be very female leaning, like fashion and HR, typically have men at the top. How many female fashion designers can you name off the top of your head? How many males? And there are far more male CHROs (going by different titles everywhere) in Fortune 500 companies than female ones, yet HR is a function typically about 85% female.

NKD, a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males can stop being racist, homophobic and sexist by growing some empathy. The most common argument is "blah blah blah ME blah blah blah." They need to learn this isn't about them, or how it makes them feel. Sure, maybe they never yelled "hey, nice ass" at a girl walking down the street, but they're certainly enabling it by defending it here and, in the case of some, claiming it's actually something women want because the one time it happened to their wife she enjoyed it.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone else. And not with your own experiences, but imagine going through life as them.
It really helps.

Or, more importantly, expand your interactions. I'm sure you have other hobbies that attracts a more diverse group of people. Have these discussions with them.

Lastly, accept that you may passively be part of a problem without suddenly feeling like part of a witchhunt, getting defense, and digging further into it. Man, some of the comments in this thread are outright ignorant, followed by "and why do people call me ignorant!" Because you're unwilling to learn and see someone else's point of view (not you NKD, others.)

You're talking about goals, but not offering a solution of how to get there. How are you proposing to instill empathy in someone? You can't get someone to empathize with you if, for all intents and purposes, you don't exist to them. No one is going to learn to empathize with women if there are no women around. Like I said, if you put a bunch of similar people together, quickly the people who are not similar are the butt of all the jokes.

Women have to decide they want to be a part of something, and take it for themselves. They neither need nor want a bunch of white knights. The first blacks to play baseball, or work in various industries, didn't sit around and wait for white people to stop being racist dickbags before they tried to participate. If they had, they'd still be waiting!

No discriminated or oppressed class ever got the respect they deserve by sitting around waiting for charity or waiting for society to change. They fought for that change by putting themselves out there.

I really fail to understand what side your on here.

How do you force change? In some ways its conversation. In other ways, it takes someone being a dick to everyone else forcing what's right. See: women's suffrage.

Women HAVE decided to be a part of something, but the conversation is a losing one. If you're a woman, how many times do you want to be called a "feminazi" by asswipes like RollinThundr before you just give up and decide you really don't want to be around a whole bunch of ignorant morons who use terms like "white knighting?"

And yes, "feminazi" is pretty common around here. RollinThundr and Prez both like the term. "White knight" is one you just used yourself.

Sorry, when one group has power, usually people in that group need to cede power before another group can get that. Use your weasel words if you want, but it doesn't really change that fact.
I don't get why that term only works here, either. Plenty of celebrities that make enormous amounts of money feel that there's a large wealth inequality in this country. People like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, too, talk about it all the time. Are they called "White knights?"

I mean, how fucking sexist is that term?

Regardless, what the hell do you propose? Articles like this, when written by women, get shot down and responded with "get back in the kitchen." It makes the people on this board every bit as brainless as the ones on Kotaku. That Tropes & Video Games series is absolutely ripped apart with such logical fallacies as "its always been this way" and "stop whining" and "haha vagina."

Are you proposing they take up violence? Because, clearly, well thought out editorials and videos don't get through the thick skulls of a bunch of scared boys that think they're better.
 
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http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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66. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:18 Beamer
 
Slashman wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:46:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:06:
And what industries are heavy-gender-leaning against females? Strippers? Hooter's Waitresses?
Even areas that tend to be very female leaning, like fashion and HR, typically have men at the top. How many female fashion designers can you name off the top of your head? How many males?

Wait. Aren't most fashion designers gay males? Are you saying that gay males are discriminating against females in the fashion industry?

I, as a straight black male, tend to agree with NKD. There needs to be sufficient female gamers ready to stand up for what they want before we see any forward momentum in this area.

Have you seen what this board turns into whenever women and games are mentioned? Probably the only two things there is close to consensus on is Deus Ex and "women needing to shut up." Just search in the sidebar for "sexism" or "feminism" or "tropes." You'll find more than a handful of people comparing women wanting equality to Naziism.

So, if you're a woman, why would you even bother standing up? It's like standing in the Mississippi river and trying to reverse its direction with your hands.

I'm sure plenty of people sat around and said "well, I guess black people deserve equal rights, but until a sufficient amount of them stand up for it, status quo is ok."
 
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65. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 13:05 Eirikrautha
 
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:31:
Women have to decide they want to be a part of something, and take it for themselves. They neither need nor want a bunch of white knights. The first blacks to play baseball, or work in various industries, didn't sit around and wait for white people to stop being racist dickbags before they tried to participate. If they had, they'd still be waiting!

Aha! Now we get to the crux of the issue! I was waiting for the proper frame on this argument (congrats).

Sexism is an "issue" (for which there is no good solution) because the Western World learned the wrong lesson from the civil rights movement. Because sexism and racism are NOT equivalent.

The civil rights movement was successful in changing the culture and values of the US (and, to a lesser extent, Europe) precisely because it was correct in both its assumptions and assertions. The predicating assumption of the civil rights movement was that skin color (i.e. race) had almost no predictive effect on evaluations of ability. In other words, it declared that there was no fundamental difference between a black man and a white man. And this is objectively TRUE.

The civil rights movement was built on defeating an idea that was demonstrably false. No matter how prejudiced someone was, eventually they would be forced by the reality of the situation (Guten Tag, Herr Jesse Owens...) to admit that their prejudice was incorrect. Reality ALWAYS wins!

Unfortunately, other groups with axes to grind have taken the wrong lesson from the civil rights movement. Many feminists have adopted the language and strategies of the civil rights movement, assuming it would be equally effective for them. Sadly, this ignores the fact that men and women are NOT fundamentally the same. So the strategies that have been copied from the civil rights movement have NOT worked, because they are predicated (in the case of feminism) on a demonstrably false premise, that men and women are the same (unlike the fact that the equivalent racial comparison IS true).

There are over 540 biological differences between men and women (completely dwarfing even the handful of biological difference due to race... a black man and white man are nearly identical genetically, compared with the difference between a black man and black woman), many that result in both physical and sociological differences. Despite this fact, the feminist advocates build their argument around the idea that men and women are interchangeable... that no differences exist. Sorry, but reality ALWAYS wins.

Note that I am not suggesting that men or women are better, nor am I even arguing that they should be treated differently. But men and women ARE different... so any argument based on a "civil rights" perspective will never succeed... because the cases are completely different...

What matters is whether or not our inherent differences might explain the observed results of whatever we are investigating. Despite the decades of promoting STEM careers for women, they still choose those careers way less often than men. Even the "successes" (like the growing number of female engineers) show these differences (when you note that the growth has overwhelmingly been in disciplines like civil engineering... and chemical and mechanical engineering still lags tremendously). Perhaps this may be biological (as men tend to have better 3D visualization skills, but women tend to be better integrators)? Rule that out before you start preaching against the "old boys' club"...
 
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64. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 12:46 Slashman
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:06:
And what industries are heavy-gender-leaning against females? Strippers? Hooter's Waitresses?
Even areas that tend to be very female leaning, like fashion and HR, typically have men at the top. How many female fashion designers can you name off the top of your head? How many males?

Wait. Aren't most fashion designers gay males? Are you saying that gay males are discriminating against females in the fashion industry?

I, as a straight black male, tend to agree with NKD. There needs to be sufficient female gamers ready to stand up for what they want before we see any forward momentum in this area.
 
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63. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 12:36 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:06:
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:50:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:26:
Lastly, you guys flame the shit out of those Gaming Tropes & Women videos. Of course no women come here. This site is almost exclusively straight white males (with the occasional netnerd.) Now, is that because only straight white males enjoy video games, or is that because there's something in the culture of video games and proudly on display here that doesn't make other groups feel welcome?

Sexism is a reality of industries with a heavy gender leaning. And like I said earlier, it sounds like a Catch-22, but the solution really is to just market the fuck out of the industry to the female population. The more females there are, the more females will be interested in taking part. And once the gender imbalance starts to level out, you'll see the sexism start to fade away.

In short, sexism doesn't cause the lack of females in the industry, the lack of females in the industry causes the sexism. That imbalance in representation causes females to be considered the "other." and makes it very easy to fall into casual sexism.

We've seen this throughout history. That's just how society works. If you want something, you have to fight for it. If you're sitting around waiting for straight white male sausage fest to stop being sexist, racist, and homophobic, you'll be waiting forever, because it's not going to happen. Put a bunch of similar people together, and very quickly the people who aren't similar become the butt of all the jokes.

If you really believe sexism is the cause of the problem, and not a symptom, then what's the solution? How are you going to get a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males to stop being racist, homophobic and sexist?

I disagree with you on the chicken-egg thing.

And what industries are heavy-gender-leaning against females? Strippers? Hooter's Waitresses?
Even areas that tend to be very female leaning, like fashion and HR, typically have men at the top. How many female fashion designers can you name off the top of your head? How many males? And there are far more male CHROs (going by different titles everywhere) in Fortune 500 companies than female ones, yet HR is a function typically about 85% female.

NKD, a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males can stop being racist, homophobic and sexist by growing some empathy. The most common argument is "blah blah blah ME blah blah blah." They need to learn this isn't about them, or how it makes them feel. Sure, maybe they never yelled "hey, nice ass" at a girl walking down the street, but they're certainly enabling it by defending it here and, in the case of some, claiming it's actually something women want because the one time it happened to their wife she enjoyed it.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone else. And not with your own experiences, but imagine going through life as them.
It really helps.

Or, more importantly, expand your interactions. I'm sure you have other hobbies that attracts a more diverse group of people. Have these discussions with them.

Lastly, accept that you may passively be part of a problem without suddenly feeling like part of a witchhunt, getting defense, and digging further into it. Man, some of the comments in this thread are outright ignorant, followed by "and why do people call me ignorant!" Because you're unwilling to learn and see someone else's point of view (not you NKD, others.)

LOL growing some empathy? Why not give them all a steady dose of estrogen while you're at it. That way you can have everyone docile and pussified just like you lefties like.

People like you are a god damn disease.
 
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62. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 12:31 NKD
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 12:06:
NKD wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:50:
Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 10:26:
Lastly, you guys flame the shit out of those Gaming Tropes & Women videos. Of course no women come here. This site is almost exclusively straight white males (with the occasional netnerd.) Now, is that because only straight white males enjoy video games, or is that because there's something in the culture of video games and proudly on display here that doesn't make other groups feel welcome?

Sexism is a reality of industries with a heavy gender leaning. And like I said earlier, it sounds like a Catch-22, but the solution really is to just market the fuck out of the industry to the female population. The more females there are, the more females will be interested in taking part. And once the gender imbalance starts to level out, you'll see the sexism start to fade away.

In short, sexism doesn't cause the lack of females in the industry, the lack of females in the industry causes the sexism. That imbalance in representation causes females to be considered the "other." and makes it very easy to fall into casual sexism.

We've seen this throughout history. That's just how society works. If you want something, you have to fight for it. If you're sitting around waiting for straight white male sausage fest to stop being sexist, racist, and homophobic, you'll be waiting forever, because it's not going to happen. Put a bunch of similar people together, and very quickly the people who aren't similar become the butt of all the jokes.

If you really believe sexism is the cause of the problem, and not a symptom, then what's the solution? How are you going to get a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males to stop being racist, homophobic and sexist?

I disagree with you on the chicken-egg thing.

And what industries are heavy-gender-leaning against females? Strippers? Hooter's Waitresses?
Even areas that tend to be very female leaning, like fashion and HR, typically have men at the top. How many female fashion designers can you name off the top of your head? How many males? And there are far more male CHROs (going by different titles everywhere) in Fortune 500 companies than female ones, yet HR is a function typically about 85% female.

NKD, a bunch of straight white males hanging out with other straight white males can stop being racist, homophobic and sexist by growing some empathy. The most common argument is "blah blah blah ME blah blah blah." They need to learn this isn't about them, or how it makes them feel. Sure, maybe they never yelled "hey, nice ass" at a girl walking down the street, but they're certainly enabling it by defending it here and, in the case of some, claiming it's actually something women want because the one time it happened to their wife she enjoyed it.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone else. And not with your own experiences, but imagine going through life as them.
It really helps.

Or, more importantly, expand your interactions. I'm sure you have other hobbies that attracts a more diverse group of people. Have these discussions with them.

Lastly, accept that you may passively be part of a problem without suddenly feeling like part of a witchhunt, getting defense, and digging further into it. Man, some of the comments in this thread are outright ignorant, followed by "and why do people call me ignorant!" Because you're unwilling to learn and see someone else's point of view (not you NKD, others.)

You're talking about goals, but not offering a solution of how to get there. How are you proposing to instill empathy in someone? You can't get someone to empathize with you if, for all intents and purposes, you don't exist to them. No one is going to learn to empathize with women if there are no women around. Like I said, if you put a bunch of similar people together, quickly the people who are not similar are the butt of all the jokes.

Women have to decide they want to be a part of something, and take it for themselves. They neither need nor want a bunch of white knights. The first blacks to play baseball, or work in various industries, didn't sit around and wait for white people to stop being racist dickbags before they tried to participate. If they had, they'd still be waiting!

No discriminated or oppressed class ever got the respect they deserve by sitting around waiting for charity or waiting for society to change. They fought for that change by putting themselves out there.
 
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If you don't like where gaming is heading, stop giving your money to the people who are taking it in that direction.
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61. Re: It Came from E3 2013, Part Six Jun 17, 2013, 12:26 Slashman
 
PHJF wrote on Jun 17, 2013, 11:45:
Or maybe the lack of women here has to do with women not being "hardcore" enough to frequent PC gaming-centered, text-heavy news web sites? Sure a lot of women game nowadays but they don't seem to care about them beyond playing them. It takes a pretty geeky geek to show up here posting diatribes about the fall of id Software or the rise of the MOBA.

I think it's more a question of what they play. Mostly it seems like casual games and MMOs.

Women just aren't that interested in the traditional hardcore types of games that the majority of males are into.
 
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