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Morning Consolidation

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48 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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28. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 15:21 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 14:34:
Then again, Lucas and Spielberg also think movies may some day soon cost $150 to see in theaters.

Ahahahahahahahahaha. Somebody please shoot both of them, in case their brand of utter fucktardery is contageous. If movies start costing double what they are now, most everyone will stop going to see them. $150 for a movie? They are fucking insane. We already knew this about George Lucas, but I guess Spielberg is next. It probably IS contageous.

Creston

 
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27. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 15:19 Creston
 
NKD wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 14:23:
Sure, the profit margins might be increasingly tight on these big budget games due to ballooning costs, but we've given them no financial incentive to change directions.

We shouldn't have to. It's not my job to make sure a publisher stays financially solvent. Most businesses in the world are smart enough to realize that if they make product A, which is state of the art and makes 4% profit, or product B, which is less state of the art but makes 12% profit, that they should focus on product B.

The gaming industry is one of the very few industries that genuinely CANNOT figure this out. (which makes sense, considering the drecks they hire at publishers. It's all marketoids marketoids marketoids and failed "businessmen". When Washington DC hires smarter people than your industry, you really need to take a long look at what you're doing.)

But why is that my problem? Why is that any customer's problem?

And yes, publishers keep trying to come up with different ways to make up the shortfalls, but again, the customer is just choosing whether to buy said DLC or not, and he or she does so on a personal value basis. Some people think DLC is worth it, and others don't.

The publishers don't have us by the balls. We have all the power. We stop buying games and studios and publishers die. We just choose not to use it.

I do completely agree with that, but I don't see it as a "WE as the customer need to kill off their stupid way of business." It's not as if there's this systematic front called "Gamers" that can choose to do thing as a group for the betterment of the whole group. That never works anywhere, so it's not gonna work for gamers either. The only way this will change is if publishers finally get smart enough to stop doing it (which, btw, several of them ARE already doing. It's just the huge ones like EA and Activision that are stuck in this never-ending rut because they're too big to change.)

If publishers can't make any money on their current AAA business without selling 10 million copies, they THEY should be clever enough to realize that they need to stop spending 400 million dollars on advertising.

And if they aren't, well, they'll just blow up one by one. I'm not gonna miss 'em. Are you? I just don't think that blaming gamers is the way to go, but maybe I'm old school. I find it curious to see a CUSTOMER being blamed for a company going under.

Creston
 
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26. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 15:14 NegaDeath
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 14:34:
Of course, Lucas and Spielberg seem to think that one summer of a half-dozen stinkers will end this (haven't we had that yet?)

Maybe it'll be next summer when Transformers 4 is out.
 
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25. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 14:34 Beamer
 
NKD wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 14:23:
Creston wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 13:59:
Why is it their fault that Game B cost 300 million dollars to make and needs to sell 8 million copies just to break even?

Creston

The problem is that people say one thing with their forum posts and another thing entirely with their wallets. Sure, the profit margins might be increasingly tight on these big budget games due to ballooning costs, but we've given them no financial incentive to change directions. They keep finding ways to get more money from us, and we keep paying it.

If their big budget games started flopping left and right, they'd reassess the situation.

The publishers don't have us by the balls. We have all the power. We stop buying games and studios and publishers die. We just choose not to use it.

Well, we're seeing in gaming what Lucas and Spielberg were talking about in movies: shifting from many interesting things to few very expensive to make things.

I'd say games moved there faster than movies.

Of course, Lucas and Spielberg seem to think that one summer of a half-dozen stinkers will end this (haven't we had that yet?) In games, probably the same, as so many of these big budget games fail and so many of the small ones are making tidy profits. Putting all your eggs in one basket, quite literally, isn't smart.

Then again, Lucas and Spielberg also think movies may some day soon cost $150 to see in theaters.
 
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24. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 14:23 NKD
 
Creston wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 13:59:
Why is it their fault that Game B cost 300 million dollars to make and needs to sell 8 million copies just to break even?

Creston

The problem is that people say one thing with their forum posts and another thing entirely with their wallets. Sure, the profit margins might be increasingly tight on these big budget games due to ballooning costs, but we've given them no financial incentive to change directions. They keep finding ways to get more money from us, and we keep paying it.

If their big budget games started flopping left and right, they'd reassess the situation.

The publishers don't have us by the balls. We have all the power. We stop buying games and studios and publishers die. We just choose not to use it.
 
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23. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 14:03 Flatline
 
Verno wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 12:28:
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

CliffyB's latest troll rant against used games is up and he predictably backs Microsoft, claiming that modern game development and marketing is too expensive to support a used game market. Of course one might wonder why the marketing and game budgets need to be this high in the first place when people will spend millions on something like Terraria and Minecraft, surely there is a middle ground to be found there.

Destructoid absolutely decimates his argument, thought people might want to take a gander.

That tells me that the next "generation" of gaming should be about making AAA quality games *cheaper* to produce. Meaning faster, easier pipelines.

I've been predicting that games are going to peak on budget since the beginning of the PS3/360 generation. The solution to this isn't to yank fair use doctrine and force consumers into what amounts to an outdated pattern of game development, but to push, and I mean *really* push, to make games cheaper and more efficient to produce. That's it really.

Either that or admit that you've hit a certain level of fidelity that is just not economical to get past and go back to investing in content.
 
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22. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 14:01 NeOCidE
 
Verno wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 12:28:
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

CliffyB's latest troll rant against used games is up and he predictably backs Microsoft, claiming that modern game development and marketing is too expensive to support a used game market. Of course one might wonder why the marketing and game budgets need to be this high in the first place when people will spend millions on something like Terraria and Minecraft, surely there is a middle ground to be found there.

Destructoid absolutely decimates his argument, thought people might want to take a gander.

Verno thanks for the link. What a brilliantly written article. Absolutely agree 100%
Cut the frickin cost of production!!!!!
 
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21. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 13:59 Creston
 
NKD wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 13:00:
One is the idea that gamers aren't responsible for these increased costs: Yes we are, at least in part. Maybe not us here on this site specifically, but in general gamers have chosen style over substance.

That's a fallacious argument. Just because the average gamer enjoys good looking games and buys them more than less-good looking games doesn't mean it's suddenly the gamer's fault that SIX MILLION copies sold is a "disappointment."

If you can't recoup costs with several hundred million dollars of revenue, then the fault lies with the creator, not the customer.

(and that's not even taking into account that I think that whole "Gamers want better graphics!" argument is terribly overblown and just something publishers have kept saying so often that we now all just think it's true. If you can't afford to make games that are this graphically detailed, then STOP MAKING THEM. Yet here are the publishers, who ignore everything and anything their customers say and/or ask for, but apparently that one particular demand must be slavishly adhered to? Bullshit.)

Quite frankly, a lot of gamers can't handle giving up the super uber graphics.

I really doubt this is true, but even IF it is, if publishers can't afford to keep making games this way, then WHY are they doing it? Put out less graphically intensive games in the market. If there's nothing else, gamers will still play it. Even on the consoles plenty of people will buy games if they're just fun rather than them being near photo-realistic.

The real problem is that publishers just don't want to figure out a different way of working. They don't want to try to work more efficiently, or try to create less-expensive-to-make, games, because they like the never-ending spiral of increasing costs to increasing revenue they are in, as that makes their share holders happy.

Seriously, don't blame the consumer for this. If there is a choice between game A that looks like something from three years ago and game B that looks like Crysis 3 had a love child with photoshop, then yeah, quite a lot of them will go with game B. Why are they to blame for that? That's the choice they are being given. Why is it their fault that Game B cost 300 million dollars to make and needs to sell 8 million copies just to break even?

Creston
 
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20. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 13:46 Creston
 
I'm amazed cliffyb can still talk with Yusuf Mehdi's dick so far down his throat.

Verno wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 12:28:
Destructoid absolutely decimates his argument, thought people might want to take a gander.

Fantastic article, and I agree 100%.

Creston
 
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19. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 13:22 NKD
 
Rattlehead wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 13:13:
This is exactly my feelings about PS4 brought to you by Maddox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4sLpG6_36Cc

Good ole Maddox, poorly thought out diarrhea of the mouth for 16 years and counting. To clarify: I think he's missing the point that it's not about sucking Sony's dick, but rather spiting Microsoft.

You'd think if anyone knew about doing something out of spite for something because it sucks, it'd be Maddox, but I guess not.
 
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18. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 13:13 Rattlehead
 
This is exactly my feelings about PS4 brought to you by Maddox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4sLpG6_36Cc
 
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17. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 13:05 Axis
 
Not sure what people don't like about the Wii U controller, it's incredibly fun to use in many games in ways NO other controllers can, and will only get better as devs come up with great ways to use it.  
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16. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 13:00 NKD
 
Verno wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 12:28:
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

CliffyB's latest troll rant against used games is up and he predictably backs Microsoft, claiming that modern game development and marketing is too expensive to support a used game market. Of course one might wonder why the marketing and game budgets need to be this high in the first place when people will spend millions on something like Terraria and Minecraft, surely there is a middle ground to be found there.

Destructoid absolutely decimates his argument, thought people might want to take a gander.

I see validity in both sides of the argument. Some, at least.

It's true that current game development models are expensive and continue to get more expensive. I don't think anyone disagrees that if games get more expensive to make, then that cost needs to be covered somehow. If they are selling fewer new copies because of used game sales and rentals, then they will recoup that cost somewhere else. CliffyB whines, but the industry seems to do fine finding other sources of income. Though generally they are sources we don't like, like DLC spam.

As for Destructoid's arguments, they are mostly on point, but I see a couple big flaws. One is the idea that gamers aren't responsible for these increased costs: Yes we are, at least in part. Maybe not us here on this site specifically, but in general gamers have chosen style over substance. Gameplay is cheap to implement. A designer and a few programmers can implement and balance features at an astonishing rate. Meanwhile for fancy graphics you need a damn armada of highly paid artists. Many indie games are rich on gameplay, poor on graphics, simply because shiny polish is the expensive part.

But games with simple art like Starbound can just focus on weapons for a couple weeks and have like 300 unique sprites finished.

Look at any big 150-person 2-year dev cycle project, and you'll find the first thing you need to do to cut costs is to fire three quarters of your artists. But that means trading graphical fidelity for graphical variety, or the other way around. Quite frankly, a lot of gamers can't handle giving up the super uber graphics.

But that brings me to their second incorrect assertion: That somehow the industry can unring the bell of spendy triple A titles. Some publicly traded company can't just downsize to 25% of its original size. The shareholders would declare war.

It's extremely hard for a large industry to become a small industry voluntarily. I can't even think of a precedent for that.
 
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15. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 12:28 Verno
 
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

CliffyB's latest troll rant against used games is up and he predictably backs Microsoft, claiming that modern game development and marketing is too expensive to support a used game market. Of course one might wonder why the marketing and game budgets need to be this high in the first place when people will spend millions on something like Terraria and Minecraft, surely there is a middle ground to be found there.

Destructoid absolutely decimates his argument, thought people might want to take a gander.
 
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14. Re: Sony's E3 victory PR stunt article Jun 13, 2013, 11:58 Pigeon
 
I'm not certain, since so much of this article seemed to be a manic brain dump of half formed ideas, but it seemed like he wants consoles to be PCs. Being able to buy more powerful Xbox Ones and retain all the games you had for the previous version, but newer games can't be played on old Xbox ones. Presumably because hardware is so disposable these day.

Which frankly sounds terrible. One of the few advantages of consoles over the PC is that games are designed specifically for the hardware, thus you don't have to worry about your console becoming obsolete in a year. All the games made for your console will play just fine on your console.

Creston wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 11:17:
How does doing the same thing again meet the underlying challenges PlayStation faces in 2013?

Because that's what the gamers want? And they have slowly been flocking towards Sony, and will now do so in droves?

Whether Sony gets enough exclusives doesn't matter. Microsoft has already made certain that a large number of gamers has no interest in their console. Those people will now go to Sony by default. It's only the diehard Halo fan and the idiot who doesn't know what he's buying that will stick with the TVBox.

Microsoft pitched us live TV in an on-demand world

Giggle Yeah, Microsoft came up with that. It's impossible to watch live TV in an on-demand world without a TVBox, I guess?

The rest of the article is barely cohesive drivel that, I THINK, whines about how the announced games were unimpressive? Well duh, when have the launch games for a console EVER been impressive? The only reason the PS2 sold like a gangster out of the gate was because it was compatible with the PS1 and so there was this massive library of games that people could play on it.

It ends with this doozy.
a wider view of the PlayStation position suggests Sony gets what it has to do. The challenge now is that it has to go do it

Wow, somebody get Jack Tretton on the line, because this is significant insight. I'm certain Jack never thought of that.

Creston

 
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13. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 11:49 TangoBaker
 
I'm betting on kinnect control.

I hate game producers. Which only seems fair, since they seem to hate us.
 
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12. Sony's E3 victory PR stunt article Jun 13, 2013, 11:17 Creston
 
How does doing the same thing again meet the underlying challenges PlayStation faces in 2013?

Because that's what the gamers want? And they have slowly been flocking towards Sony, and will now do so in droves?

Whether Sony gets enough exclusives doesn't matter. Microsoft has already made certain that a large number of gamers has no interest in their console. Those people will now go to Sony by default. It's only the diehard Halo fan and the idiot who doesn't know what he's buying that will stick with the TVBox.

Microsoft pitched us live TV in an on-demand world

Giggle Yeah, Microsoft came up with that. It's impossible to watch live TV in an on-demand world without a TVBox, I guess?

The rest of the article is barely cohesive drivel that, I THINK, whines about how the announced games were unimpressive? Well duh, when have the launch games for a console EVER been impressive? The only reason the PS2 sold like a gangster out of the gate was because it was compatible with the PS1 and so there was this massive library of games that people could play on it.

It ends with this doozy.
a wider view of the PlayStation position suggests Sony gets what it has to do. The challenge now is that it has to go do it

Wow, somebody get Jack Tretton on the line, because this is significant insight. I'm certain Jack never thought of that.

Creston

 
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11. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 11:04 Creston
 
Mirror’s Edge Reboot Was Sparked By A New Idea That Can Only Work On Next-Gen Platforms

Calling it now, it will be an always-on DRM co-op title. SimMirror'sEdge.

Creston
 
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10. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 10:50 CrimsonPaw
 
Verno wrote on Jun 13, 2013, 08:56:
Tretton said The Last Guardian was on hiatus but then Shuhei Yoshida said it wasn't so who knows what the heck is going on.
If I had to wager a guess, it's that the game is on "hiatus" in order to port the code from the Cell based architecture over to the X86 architecture. I bet it's pushing the limits of the PS3 and may be more inclined to fall in line with Yoshida's true vision on more powerful hardware. We'll see it again next E3...
 
~~Crim~~
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9. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 13, 2013, 10:35 Verno
 
I really want a Wii U, I just don't want that controller and its too damned expensive with it.  
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