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Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified

The Kickstarter page for Shadowrun Returns has word from Harebrained Schemes about their promise to provide a DRM-free version of the Shadowrun revival, and how this will and will not conflict with their plans to offer a version on Steam in addition to a standalone release. They explain that their license agreement with Microsoft actually requires the game and its DLC to include DRM, and while they managed to negotiate an exception to provide DRM-free editions of the game and the Berlin Campaign reward DLC for their backers, this will not apply to any other releases, so they will not be able to sell the game on GOG.com or in any other DRM-free way, and all future DLC after Berlin Campaign will be only release though Steam. So to sum this up: Kickstarter backers of Shadowrun Returns are entitled to a DRM-free standalone version of the game with editor and mod support (and future patches) as well as a DRM-free copy of the reward DLC, but if they want to purchase future DLC after that, they must install the Steam version (which is also included in their backer rewards). Thanks nin.

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118 Replies. 6 pages. Viewing page 3.
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78. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:43 Dev
 
I mentioned all this stuff way back in post #9 and everyone is still arguing over it lol.

Anyway, they may well have intended to offer it DRM free for all (not just backers), but at the time of the KS they were still working out the final details with the licensing. As I mentioned earlier, we are lucky MS didn't just tell them "no exceptions, tough luck" to the DRM provisions.

In the end, anyone who already "pre-ordered" the game through kickstarter is indeed getting what was promised, a DRM free version. If someone wanted this and didn't kickstart, they missed their chance.
 
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77. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:37 Harlequin
 
Prez wrote on Apr 13, 2013, 23:01:
I agree. Quit your bitching. Steam is not so bad anyway.

Steam is awesome. I own over 1000 games on the service. But it IS DRM. And while the devs are honoring the letter of their pledge to deliver a DRM-free version of the game, by requiring Steam for all future content updates they really aren't honoring the spirit of that pledge. No, it isn't fraud or anything close, but it is something worth bringing up, if for no other reason than to keep future kickstarter devs honest. The relationship between the kickstarter developer and the backers is built on a "good faith" relationship. When devs pick and choose what pertinent info about the development/licensing/production they are going to share with publishers (even about potential licensing deals like the one with Microsoft owning the license to the one they wished to make), they run the risk of damaging that relationship. It's a buyer beware situation, no doubt, but being coy and misleading about potentially unsavory tidbits of information is still not the way kickstarter devs should go about their business when asking backers to front them money based on nothing more than a name and a vision.

Steam full of awesomesauce, agreed.

That said a few points;

1. MS owning the SR lic is NOT new, nor was private information. This has been public information for YEARS. HBS did not hide this info as been implied by you and others. A simple google search would have made this very clear to anyone interested.

2. IIRC they never stated anything beyond Berlin would be available to non DRM people. If one ASSUMED that without asking that is on said person not HBS for not doing your homework.

3. From what I read this info about the lic fine print about DRM wasn't known by HBS until RECENTLY. During the KS they were not aware of it. So how are they supposed to share info with you if they don't know themselves? One could argue well they should have been more careful with the fine print. And that's probably a valid issue. But saying or implying they held this info back knowingly is incorrect unless you are saying this wasn't human error but out right lying.

M2C
 
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76. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:30 Fibrocyte
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:00:
Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:29:
That's irrational and an extremely thin argument. You and a few others are reading into something that isn't there and never was there, simply to justify your irrational whining.
You, sir, are the winner of this discussion. Your interpretation of reality is by far the weirdest shit i've read in this thread. You simple define the facts you have presented yourself as not existant, because these facts dont fit into your world view. Not bad, sir, not bad ...

Crown


Score: -2/10

Grading scale
---------------------
Proper spelling/grammar = 3 points
Being on the right/smart side of the argument = 5 points
Being able to pull off sarcasm = 2 points
Agreeing with Julio = -2 points
 
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75. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:26 Verno
 
Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:29:
Considering the Kickstarter only refers to what backers get, that logically, should be enough. No promises were ever made about the game always being available completely DRM-free to people that didn't back the Kickstarter. You say they didn't specifically state it was for backers only, and to that I say, they didn't specifically state it was going to extend to non-backers as well. Backers that still feel slighted can get a refund.

I'm kinda lost in the interpretation there but I agree with you in principal that this isn't a big deal and is a benefit to most people interested in the game. I don't think they did anything deliberately deceptive or that it really matters much.

So yeah tempest in a teapot. I can understand how a few anti-Steam folk might not like it but whatever, they can get a refund and back something else.
 
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Playing: Divinity Original Sin, Destiny, Fire Emblem
Watching: Continuum, Star Trek TNG, Haunt
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74. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:16 Beamer
 
Also, is Julio ever right about anything?
Fraud? Even Cutter, who hates everything and thinks everyone wants to screw him over, is saying this isn't fraud.
 
-------------
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http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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73. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:15 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Apr 13, 2013, 15:24:
Ok, let me clarify: I believe they should have publicized the details of their licensing agreement with Microsoft with regard to what it allows them to do and what it doesn't. I'm getting the impression that they did not do that, which feels rather cagey to me.

You don't think that's relevant info for a potential investor? Kickstarter isn't a shop. It's a funding round. Investors have broader stakes than getting a pre-defined set of goods.

Edit: Posting overlapped with your edit covering the timeline.

This is so wrong it isn't funny.

It's donations, not investments. You do not own a piece of the company. You do not get any return. You are not an investor.

Stop claiming you are.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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72. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:00 Kajetan
 
Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:29:
That's irrational and an extremely thin argument. You and a few others are reading into something that isn't there and never was there, simply to justify your irrational whining.
You, sir, are the winner of this discussion. Your interpretation of reality is by far the weirdest shit i've read in this thread. You simple define the facts you have presented yourself as not existant, because these facts dont fit into your world view. Not bad, sir, not bad ...

Crown

 
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71. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 11:29 Krovven
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:02:
They said: "For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website."

And they are providing that. To be clear...all backers get at least 2 copies of the game for being a backer. 2 copies for a minimum of $15! "To reiterate, our Backers don’t have to choose a DRM-free version of the game or a Steam version of the game. You get both."

Using Steamworks and Steamworkshop integration provides a huge bonus to the future of this game that wasn't available before. Anyone that sees this as a bad thing, in my opinion, is a moron. So for the very few people that do have a problem with it, I couldn't care less.

There is no "Only for backers".

They said: "We are also looking into a Steam release ..."

"Also" as in "optional" and not "We are releasing the game only for backers drm-free on our website and everyone else has to buy it via Steam"

Considering the Kickstarter only refers to what backers get, that logically, should be enough. No promises were ever made about the game always being available completely DRM-free to people that didn't back the Kickstarter. You say they didn't specifically state it was for backers only, and to that I say, they didn't specifically state it was going to extend to non-backers as well. Backers that still feel slighted can get a refund.

And you call people "idiots" because they actually read AND understand what was said during the Kickstarter campaign? You're a funny guy ...

Certainly do. You are claiming foul based on they didn't specifically state "Only for backers". That's irrational and an extremely thin argument. You and a few others are reading into something that isn't there and never was there, simply to justify your irrational whining.

This comment was edited on Apr 14, 2013, 11:36.
 
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70. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 11:27 eRe4s3r
 
nin wrote on Apr 13, 2013, 23:25:
other news about Shadowrun came out today too, and they were not DRM related, and much more horrible. No corpse looting, No own saving. (Just checkpoints)..

Welcome to a month ago...


Completely missed this.. heh
 
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69. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 11:02 Kajetan
 
Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 10:41:
At no point did they say the game would be completely DRM free forever either.
They said: "For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website."

There is no "Only for backers".

They said: "We are also looking into a Steam release ..."

"Also" as in "optional" and not "We are releasing the game only for backers drm-free on our website and everyone else has to buy it via Steam"

And you call people "idiots" because they actually read AND understand what was said during the Kickstarter campaign? You're a funny guy ...
 
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68. Re: More Big Picture Details Apr 14, 2013, 11:02 HorrorScope
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 09:44:
They started a Kickstarter campaign when those essential details were still in negation. Do you think this good business practice?

Probably not. To me I think we are also going to have some other promises broken in the lines of Apple and Linux versions. They like to throw that carrot out there to include everyone as to get as many dollars a possible. My estimate is several will never release those versions. That will cause a sizable issue when that time comes. Probably a huge reason why so many are choosing Unity.
 
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67. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 10:41 Krovven
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 10:21:
Where did it say that DRM free was only for backers? Please enlighten me, oh wise one!

From the FAQ on their Kickstarter page.

How will the game be distributed when it's released to the public? What about DRM-free?
For mobile tablets, Shadowrun Returns will be available via iTunes, Android Marketplace, and the Amazon Android marketplace. For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website. We are also looking into a Steam release (and potentially Humble Bundle as well).

Last updated: Monday Apr 23, 6:39pm EDT

What type of account system/DRM can we expect?
While the details are still being worked out, we hate draconian DRM as much as the next guy. We expect there will be an account system but it would be primarily used to enable the social elements of the game like mission and character sharing--not to restrict access to the game itself.

Last updated: Monday Apr 23, 6:38pm EDT

At no point did they say the game would be completely DRM free forever either. They quite explicitly stated there would be at the very least an account based system. Note the dates on their FAQ answers, that's 2012. They hid nothing, they lied about nothing.

As usual this amounts to idiots that can't read and are complaining for the sake of complaining.
 
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66. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 10:21 Kajetan
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 09:47:
So, basically, what we have here is a group of people who didn't bother to READ the actualities of the kick starter, ...
Where did it say that DRM free was only for backers? Please enlighten me, oh wise one!
 
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65. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 09:47 Eirikrautha
 
@ nin #47

Good post! So, basically, what we have here is a group of people who didn't bother to READ the actualities of the kick starter, and are now screaming because their own lack of effort and attention has had negative (in their view) repercussions. Welcome to everyone under 30 in the US or Europe. It's why western civilization is collapsing...
 
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64. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 09:44 Kajetan
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 09:30:
How is is it fraud when they're going to deliver what they said would? They never made any promises about future DLC. You get the game and editor drm free is you like. That's the agreement.
63 post and still some people dont get it.

They promised a DRM free game. Not "Sry, DRM free only for backers because MS is an asshole!". DRM free. As in "DRM free for everyone because we mentioned no limitations". They started a Kickstarter campaign when those essential details were still in negation. Do you think this good business practice?
 
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63. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 09:30 Cutter
 
How is is it fraud when they're going to deliver what they said would? They never made any promises about future DLC. You get the game and editor drm free is you like. That's the agreement.


 
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62. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 06:29 Julio
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 01:02:
They are delivering what they said they would deliver, and if for some strange reason you still feel cheated, you can get a refund.

Where does it say they're offering full refunds to backers? There's quite a few backers on the KS pages who have asked, and not been responded to. That would be the right thing for Harebrained to do. I doubt they do.

Why do I think it's fraud:
"fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain..." from Wikipedia.

Personal gain - I think getting money from backers qualifies.

Deception - Not telling backers that the DRM free version would be more limited than the full game qualifies as deception to me. Limited = unable to use future DLC on the DRM free version.

So the question to me is, was it intentional. That depends on whether you believe Harebrained read their licensing agreement with Microsoft. I think it's more likely than not that they did read it, it would be quite stupid not to and sign it. So they're incompetent/stupid or frauds. I'll pick frauds.

Fortunately, other recent Kickstarters such as Wasteland 2 have said they will not be adopting the same tactics as Harebrained. So there are some Kickstarters with integrity.
 
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61. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 06:10 TheVocalMinority
 
killer_roach wrote on Apr 13, 2013, 21:11:
Xombie wrote on Apr 13, 2013, 21:04:
But it isn't really investment. Paying a few bucks for a Kickstarter campaign doesn't mean you're on the board of directors, or get any actual input on the product beyond what they deign to listen to, unless that's what they promised you.

In fact, it's illegal by law to sell an investment position on Kickstarter unless all of the backers are qualified investors (which would likely rule out... everyone here - a qualified investor is one with phenomenal net worth).

This is either very stupid or even if technically correct is deliberately misleading . I assure you that backing a Kickstarter is, by any normal definition of the term, an investment. Accredited Investor, which I think is what is being referred to here, applies to specific types of securities. Bizarre that no one has even questioned this?

 
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-nin May 16, 2012, 10:52
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60. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 06:03 El Pit
 
I love loot (i.e. seeing my character evolving, becoming stronger), and I love to save whenever and wherever I want to (well, outside of fights and cut scenes, that is). So, if they want me to buy this game, they better add this. If not, they lost a sale. Maybe I'm not the target audience for this game.  
Consoles? I owned two: a Pong clone and an Atari 2600. And that's it.
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59. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 04:32 Prez
 
Just to be clear, I am pro-steam and pro-Harebrained - I very much plan on getting the new Shadowrun game on Steam if it is good. I just worry about the integrity of kickstarter (and thereby its very viability) if developers start doing things that can be construed as misleading, disingenuous, or otherwise unsavory.

This comment was edited on Apr 14, 2013, 05:39.
 
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118 Replies. 6 pages. Viewing page 3.
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