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Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified

The Kickstarter page for Shadowrun Returns has word from Harebrained Schemes about their promise to provide a DRM-free version of the Shadowrun revival, and how this will and will not conflict with their plans to offer a version on Steam in addition to a standalone release. They explain that their license agreement with Microsoft actually requires the game and its DLC to include DRM, and while they managed to negotiate an exception to provide DRM-free editions of the game and the Berlin Campaign reward DLC for their backers, this will not apply to any other releases, so they will not be able to sell the game on GOG.com or in any other DRM-free way, and all future DLC after Berlin Campaign will be only release though Steam. So to sum this up: Kickstarter backers of Shadowrun Returns are entitled to a DRM-free standalone version of the game with editor and mod support (and future patches) as well as a DRM-free copy of the reward DLC, but if they want to purchase future DLC after that, they must install the Steam version (which is also included in their backer rewards). Thanks nin.

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118 Replies. 6 pages. Viewing page 2.
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98. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 18:47 Creston
 
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 18:43:
SR, reward wise, was just about the payday & karma. That's it. Using that payday from Mr. Johnson for better equipment, cyberware & karma for skills. Loot on people you killed really wasn't much of a thought the vast majority of the time.

The very first time we played Shadowrun (After being a heavy D&D group for years), we "looted" a few mercs we had taken down. So our GM goes "Okay, each of you now has an assault rifle, a gun, a knife, a grenade and a flak jacket, bundled up loosely in your hands. You're starting to draw attention."

Agree completely it's about the karma and the payday. You may loot some nuyen off your foes, or perhaps some spare ammo, but that's really about it. And since you're often on a tight time-schedule (your hacker can't keep the corporate security guys fooled forever), you really don't take the time to rifle through some rent-a-cop's clothes to see if he has a 10 nuyen credstick on him.

Creston

This comment was edited on Apr 14, 2013, 18:59.
 
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97. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 18:47 FU
 
Yeeaaaahhhhhh... About that.
 
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96. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 18:43 Harlequin
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 17:59:
I couldn't top your nonsensical response calling games with loot "WoW with guns". Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Secret of the Silver Blades, the Krynn games... Yeah, you sure know a lot about (old) games.

Except Shadowrun isn't any of those games. He's saying that the PnP version of Shadowrun was never about loot so its absence in SR isn't surprising, nor will it have a detrimental effect on the gameplay.

Make no mistake, I do enjoy a good loot system but I don't think its integral to RPGs. Meaningful choice and consequence are what I consider integral and hopefully SR will deliver in that respect.

QFT Thank you for saving me the time to explain it.

SR, reward wise, was just about the payday & karma. That's it. Using that payday from Mr. Johnson for better equipment, cyberware & karma for skills. Loot on people you killed really wasn't much of a thought the vast majority of the time.
 
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95. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 18:01 Julio
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 16:40:
it's pretty fucking clear this isn't fraud. They are delivering exactly what they said they would.

They aren't exactly delivering what they said they would. They didn't mention the DRM free version won't be DLC capable. Given the DLC can be used in user built mod content, it means some user mods will not be usable with the DRM free version in the future. If they had made this clear at the beginning - no issue at all.

How about refunds, or allowing backers to trade down to lower tiers - nope, they're not doing that either.

Beamer wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 17:43:
Fraud, in regards to a Kickstarter, is essentially impossible, by the way...We have no recourse.

Just because there's no recourse, doesn't mean fraud can't happen.

It would the same to claim there was no fraud in the 2008 financial crisis because zero wall street executives were prosecuted for fraud. No recourse, I think we all know there was fraud there (of course someone may want to argue this point - who knows).

This comment was edited on Apr 14, 2013, 18:08.
 
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94. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 17:59 Jerykk
 
I couldn't top your nonsensical response calling games with loot "WoW with guns". Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Secret of the Silver Blades, the Krynn games... Yeah, you sure know a lot about (old) games.

Except Shadowrun isn't any of those games. He's saying that the PnP version of Shadowrun was never about loot so its absence in SR isn't surprising, nor will it have a detrimental effect on the gameplay.

Make no mistake, I do enjoy a good loot system but I don't think its integral to RPGs. Meaningful choice and consequence are what I consider integral and hopefully SR will deliver in that respect.
 
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93. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 17:43 Beamer
 
Fraud, in regards to a Kickstarter, is essentially impossible, by the way.

Plenty of things we backed will either never come out or come out as pieces of shit. We have no recourse.

So, if you're claiming fraud, you're probably not giving this any real thought.
 
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92. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 16:40 Cutter
 
Beamer wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:16:
Also, is Julio ever right about anything?
Fraud? Even Cutter, who hates everything and thinks everyone wants to screw him over, is saying this isn't fraud.

Hate everything? Rolleyes No just dumb shit. Statements like that, for example. Everyone screw me over? WTF does that even come from?

And no, it's pretty fucking clear this isn't fraud. They are delivering exactly what they said they would. Case closed.
 
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"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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91. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 16:18 El Pit
 
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 14:57:
El Pit wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 13:09:
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:44:
In the PnP version I RARELY recall players looting bodies unless they were looking for a specific object. This is actually in theme with the PnP game it's based on. If you are looking for WoW with guns in essence then correct, you are not the target audience.

Yeah, exacly. Right now I'm replaying Baldur's Gate. It has loot, you know. That makes it WoW with guns, right? Rrrright.

I suppose if I said 'apples and oranges' as a reply that would go over your head as well and expect a nonsensical reply to that?

I couldn't top your nonsensical response calling games with loot "WoW with guns". Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Secret of the Silver Blades, the Krynn games... Yeah, you sure know a lot about (old) games.
 
Consoles? I owned two: a Pong clone and an Atari 2600. And that's it.
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90. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 15:40 Flatline
 
El Pit wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 13:09:
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:44:
In the PnP version I RARELY recall players looting bodies unless they were looking for a specific object. This is actually in theme with the PnP game it's based on. If you are looking for WoW with guns in essence then correct, you are not the target audience.

Yeah, exacly. Right now I'm replaying Baldur's Gate. It has loot, you know. That makes it WoW with guns, right? Rrrright.

Yeah and the loot system has the same problem that I was describing a few posts earlier. It's generally vendor trash or stuff of minor use. The analog for magic items in D&D isn't readily present either in SR, unless you count cyberware, which gets... messy... extracting. The idea that you can hack out wired reflexes in 30 seconds is BS. You *might* be able to rip off an arm or leg or *gag* a damaged cybereye, but this is stretching it and not something you'd do anyway.

There are no spell scrolls or potions as it were either in SR, which means unless someone has a gun that you want, or has the exact same gun that you have, grabbing their stuff is a matter of vendor trashing, and as I already pointed out, a smart author/programmer can work around that easily enough through storytelling.
 
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89. Re: More Big Picture Details Apr 14, 2013, 15:10 Dev
 
HorrorScope wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:02:
To me I think we are also going to have some other promises broken in the lines of Apple and Linux versions.
Unlikely, since unity can port to both of those.
 
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88. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 14:57 Harlequin
 
El Pit wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 13:09:
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:44:
In the PnP version I RARELY recall players looting bodies unless they were looking for a specific object. This is actually in theme with the PnP game it's based on. If you are looking for WoW with guns in essence then correct, you are not the target audience.

Yeah, exacly. Right now I'm replaying Baldur's Gate. It has loot, you know. That makes it WoW with guns, right? Rrrright.

I suppose if I said 'apples and oranges' as a reply that would go over your head as well and expect a nonsensical reply to that?
 
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87. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 14:06 Dev
 
Julio wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 13:12:
So they ran a Kickstarter without having the license locked up? So what would have happened if they didn't get it? Just keep the cash and spend it on hookers and blow?
Presumably they had a firm commitment from MS and the other parties involved when they made the kickstarter, but the final negotiation and signing wasn't finished. IMHO not the best course of action, not just because of things like the DRM consequences, but because MS and the other parties could have extorted worse terms after they saw the level of interest in the KS. They would have had them over a barrel at that point.

But yeah, I imagine if it didn't work out they would have refunded.

I guess it just depends on how evil one thinks they are. The contrasting view is that they purposefully deceived to get the money, and would never offer any refunds.
 
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86. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 14:00 Verno
 
Redmask wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 13:54:
Yeah he doesn't seem to understand what's going on, just what he thinks is ok based on his preferences and is trying to mold them to fit.

I hope people look at the latest feature adjustments too, some annoying things in there like checkpointing.

I disagree, I think its just two different interpretations and reading the original KS text I don't think it's really conclusive either way. I think they did a great job accommodating backers in a tough situation so I'm with Krovven on this, it's not a big deal and I think they did the best they could.
 
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85. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 13:54 Redmask
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:02:
They said: "For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website."

There is no "Only for backers".

They said: "We are also looking into a Steam release ..."

"Also" as in "optional" and not "We are releasing the game only for backers drm-free on our website and everyone else has to buy it via Steam"

And you call people "idiots" because they actually read AND understand what was said during the Kickstarter campaign? You're a funny guy ...

Yeah he doesn't seem to understand what's going on, just what he thinks is ok based on his preferences and is trying to mold them to fit.

I hope people look at the latest feature adjustments too, some annoying things in there like checkpointing.
 
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84. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 13:46 Krovven
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:00:
Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:29:
That's irrational and an extremely thin argument. You and a few others are reading into something that isn't there and never was there, simply to justify your irrational whining.
You, sir, are the winner of this discussion. Your interpretation of reality is by far the weirdest shit i've read in this thread. You simple define the facts you have presented yourself as not existant, because these facts dont fit into your world view. Not bad, sir, not bad ...

Crown


Exact same can be said of you buddy. Your interpretation of their so called "DRM-free forever to all" promise is ludicrous. They never promised that, end of discussion.

 
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83. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 13:37 Wowbagger_TIP
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:00:
Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:29:
That's irrational and an extremely thin argument. You and a few others are reading into something that isn't there and never was there, simply to justify your irrational whining.
You, sir, are the winner of this discussion. Your interpretation of reality is by far the weirdest shit i've read in this thread. You simple define the facts you have presented yourself as not existant, because these facts dont fit into your world view. Not bad, sir, not bad ...

Crown
Except that he's exactly right. You ARE assuming things that were never said by HBS. And KS is based on donations, not investments, not purchase transactions, just donations. They offer rewards for those donations you make in the hope that they will be able to deliver the thing you want. HBS is delivering on exactly what they said they would to those that donated. Nothing was promised to be DRM free beyond the Berlin campaign, and nothing at all was promised to non-backers. If you don't like it, you can get a refund.

You seem to be the one with the weird interpretation here.
 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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82. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 13:35 Wowbagger_TIP
 
Julio wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 13:12:
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:37:
One could argue well they should have been more careful with the fine print. And that's probably a valid issue. But saying or implying they held this info back knowingly is incorrect unless you are saying this wasn't human error but out right lying.

I think they're lying. But who knows, maybe they're just completely incompetent and can't read a contract.

Because contracts are always clear and comprehensive about everything, right? There's never a need to ask for additional info or to negotiate things that weren't explicitly covered in detail in the contract, right? No... of course they're just lying...

And of course this comes on the heels of the other news about how nobody knows who owns the NOLF license. Because, you know, contracts are always so clear about everything and lawyers never make mistakes...
 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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81. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 13:12 Julio
 
Beamer wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:16:
Also, is Julio ever right about anything?

I can't recall ever being on the same side of a discussion as you, so I must be wrong

Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:37:
One could argue well they should have been more careful with the fine print. And that's probably a valid issue. But saying or implying they held this info back knowingly is incorrect unless you are saying this wasn't human error but out right lying.

I think they're lying. But who knows, maybe they're just completely incompetent and can't read a contract.

Dev wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:43:
Anyway, they may well have intended to offer it DRM free for all (not just backers), but at the time of the KS they were still working out the final details with the licensing.

So they ran a Kickstarter without having the license locked up? So what would have happened if they didn't get it? Just keep the cash and spend it on hookers and blow?

HorrorScope wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 11:02:
To me I think we are also going to have some other promises broken in the lines of Apple and Linux versions.

But there's no broken promises, just incompetence on Harebrained's part and a lack of google searches by backers At least that's what some will believe. Just putting that out there now to save some posts when it happens.

Krovven wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 10:41:
At no point did they say the game would be completely DRM free forever either. They hid nothing, they lied about nothing. As usual this amounts to idiots that can't read and are complaining for the sake of complaining.

True, they never stated their plans to have Steam DRM, other than clearly implying DRM free. So somehow illogically that means they hid nothing. And who's the idiot who can't read?

Fibrocyte wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:30:
Agreeing with Julio = -2 points

Only -2 points?

 
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80. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 13:09 El Pit
 
Harlequin wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 12:44:
In the PnP version I RARELY recall players looting bodies unless they were looking for a specific object. This is actually in theme with the PnP game it's based on. If you are looking for WoW with guns in essence then correct, you are not the target audience.

Yeah, exacly. Right now I'm replaying Baldur's Gate. It has loot, you know. That makes it WoW with guns, right? Rrrright.
 
Consoles? I owned two: a Pong clone and an Atari 2600. And that's it.
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79. Re: Shadowrun Returns DRM Clarified Apr 14, 2013, 12:44 Harlequin
 
El Pit wrote on Apr 14, 2013, 06:03:
I love loot (i.e. seeing my character evolving, becoming stronger), and I love to save whenever and wherever I want to (well, outside of fights and cut scenes, that is). So, if they want me to buy this game, they better add this. If not, they lost a sale. Maybe I'm not the target audience for this game.

In the PnP version I RARELY recall players looting bodies unless they were looking for a specific object. This is actually in theme with the PnP game it's based on. If you are looking for WoW with guns in essence then correct, you are not the target audience.
 
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