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Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June

A new update to the Kickstarter for Shadowrun Returns says the release of Harebrained Schemes' upcoming cyberpunk tactical RPG will be release in June, and that those interested in the Collector's Edition should get their preorders in by April 28th. They also mention another deadline, saying the Harebrained Account Website is now online, and that backers should soon begin receiving emails with login information, stressing that it is essential that backers login and fill in their information by April 22nd in order to receive their backer rewards. They also announce the game will be distributed through Steam and support the Steam Workshop, noting that Steam will make it easier for them to support it across Windows, OS X, and Linux. This does not, however, mean they are going back on their promise of a DRM-free game:

We realize that for some of you, releasing on Steam isn’t your first choice but there are a lot of really great things we get from this decision that allow us to focus on the game rather than on making things like backend servers to deploy and manage shared content. From the start, we’ve had to make practical decisions like this one to ensure we get the most out of the support you’ve given us. We consider this to be the best option for everyone.

Now, that may prompt the question, “What about DRM-free?” To honor our original promise of a DRM-free version of the game, the Harebrained Account Website will also contain a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns that does not include Steam integration. While this version will include the Seattle story (and Berlin, via a one-time update), without Steam integration, it will be unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game. Any future DLC will only be available through Steam.

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91 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 1.
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91. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 13, 2013, 04:55 Krovven
 
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/453037  
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90. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 11, 2013, 09:00 Verno
 
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:35:
This much idiocy in one paragraph should be a felony.

So you don't have an actual response then? He had some good points and your failure to answer pretty much defeats your entire argument here.
 
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Playing: Dragon Age Inquisition, Far Cry 4, This War of Mine
Watching: The Walking Dead, The Fall, As Above So Below
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89. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 11, 2013, 05:12 Jerykk
 
None of the existing DRMs give this much freedom, and almost all require you to create an account and register a game without a possibility of removing it afterwards.

Why would I want to remove it? Having to manually activate and deactivate installs was a major nuisance. If for some reason you were unable to run the deactivation program (system failure, hard drive failure, etc), bam, you're screwed. Want to update your hardware and/or switch OSes? Gotta make sure to deactivate all your games first and then reactivate them. Fun times for all!

With Steam, I can install my games on as many computers as I want. If my PC dies for some reason, no problem. Just install Steam on the new PC, reinstall the game and voila, good to go.

As for being unable to use Steam on multiple machines at the same time, I assume offline mode allows you to do just that. I haven't tried it myself but if Origin and friggin Uplay allow it, I imagine Steam does as well.

Bottom line is that the benefits of Steam outweigh the downsides. Automatic updates, cloud saves, achievements, leaderboards, support forums, instant messaging and chat rooms, silent installs, mod support, multiplayer invites, voice chat, pre-loads... Steam just offers a lot of useful functionality. That's why people like it. If you ask anyone if they want SafeDisc, SecuROM, Starforce, TAGES or any other DRM scheme, they'll answer with a resounding no. Those DRM schemes are just that: DRM. They offer no benefits to the customer whatsoever and exist solely to protect the publisher's interests. But if you ask someone if they'd like Steamworks integration, they'll most likely say yes because they don't see DRM when they look at Steam. They see a bunch of useful and convenient features.

I used to pirate most of my games but now pirating is actually less convenient and less appealing than using Steam, which is why I have over 1000 games on Steam and can't be bothered to pirate games anymore. Steam basically stopped all my piracy so I guess that makes it the most effective DRM ever.

This comment was edited on Apr 11, 2013, 05:18.
 
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88. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 20:17 jacobvandy
 
vrok wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 20:03:
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:
Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY!
This is wrong and you should feel bad.

It might have applied to whatever corporate slave country you lived in at the time, or you might have been brainwashed after the fact to believe so, but it's not a universal truth.

Unlike some people, I've left my opinion out of this discussion. I have not stated whether or not I agree with that (being piracy), but them's the facts. Hence why DRM is what it is, and why publishers use it. You can't expect Steam to say "hey guys, we decided to be nice and let you freely duplicate and distribute any game you download from us!" Because then there would be no Steam.
 
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87. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 20:16 Fantaz
 
InBlack wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 09:25:
Looking forward to this, one of the first bigger Kickstarters to be realeased.

Yes, it does look good!!

I started developing my own Cyberpunk mobile web-based game and kind of modeled a bit after this Kickstarter stuff, but purely text (combat) based strategy. Here's another promising Cyberpunk Kickstarter:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage

If anyone wants to help me with my Android game, please e-mail me: fantaz(at)gmail(dot)com
 
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86. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 20:03 vrok
 
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:
Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY!
This is wrong and you should feel bad.

It might have applied to whatever corporate slave country you lived in at the time, or you might have been brainwashed after the fact to believe so, but it's not a universal truth.

This comment was edited on Apr 10, 2013, 20:09.
 
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85. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 20:00 Prez
 
As an addendum I will say that having it on Steam makes it a no-brainer for me as long it is good. I just don't think Steam exclusivity for the complete game is a fair move to those who pledged money before knowing this.  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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84. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:55 Prez
 
Personally I love Steam (and despite what some rather, um... imaginative posters are claiming it is far and away the best digital download platform by a country mile - there's not even a close second), but I have to admit this move is a rather ill-advised "bait-and-switch" at this late stage. If Steam was going to be the primary platform for the complete game, that information should have been made known prior to asking for a single cent of backers' money. Even though lots of gamers use and love Steam, many other gamers would rather not use it at all, and to go this route only after the funding was secured from backers - many of whom undoubtedly want nothing to do with Steam - seems a little slimy.  
Avatar 17185
 
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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83. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:46 deqer
 
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:
Why would YOU, yourself, need that functionality? You wouldn't, not ever, because you can't be in two places at once playing two different games.

Wait a sec. What if he has two computers beside each other, and has two sets of eyes and four arms?

 
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82. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:35 noman
 
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:45:
Since when did playing different games on different PCs become piracy? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!

The only stupid thing here is you typing without thinking... You're saying you want to buy games on Steam (AKA license them for YOUR account) and then play each one on a different computer at the same time on the SAME account? Why would YOU, yourself, need that functionality? You wouldn't, not ever, because you can't be in two places at once playing two different games. You think OTHER PEOPLE should be allowed to play your games (which you do not own, you licensed them for your own personal use) just because you're not currently playing them. THAT is piracy, dude. Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY! Its your own deluded wishful thinking that classifies it otherwise. Your idea of a "highly desirable feature" is completely illegal by intellectual property law.

Conversation over, good day sir.

This much idiocy in one paragraph should be a felony.
 
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81. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:31 noman
 
Redmask wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:05:
You can play and install games on multiple PCs with Steam, you just can't do it simultaneously. Origin doesn't let me run two copies of Battlefield 3 either. Most digital services are account based and while some let you run singleplayer executables, it's not really a supported feature if you read the TOS. I can load some games without using Origin but not others, some games work standalone without Steam but many require it and so on.

The ability to play games bought through Origin without the launcher application is a great thing, however as you said it doesn't work now with all games. In the early EADM/Origin days however, you could run the games and even re-install them without using Origin app at all. But still a large collection of third party games don't require Origin to be running. They are installed on the hard-disk in the exact form that you'd get from physical media. It's another thing I much prefer in Origin.

In any case, coming back to the multiple games from different PCs issue, I have never had any problems running different single player games from the same Origin account on different PCs, even if the games required Origin to be running in the background.

The market long ago voted on per game DRM and they don't like it. I'm sorry you disagree but the market has decided that account based services are the future and most people find Steams implementation fairly benign and acceptable.

Yes, but that's where the Kickstarter model has been so great. I get a chance to give the developers my opinion right in the beginning about the DRM method. When Obsidian's Project Eternity started, Steam was the only available option. I told them, I'd only pledge if a DRM free version comes along. Several others said the same, and the DRM-free version became one of the options.

Between HumbleBundle, Kickstarter and GoG, I remain hopeful for PC gaming.
 
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80. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:26 jacobvandy
 
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:45:
Since when did playing different games on different PCs become piracy? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!

Even playing the same game on different PCs, which while against some EULAs, is still a highly desirable feature. So I won't fault Steam here, but I much appreciate other DRM schemes that don't actually apply these EULAs.

The only stupid thing here is you typing without thinking... You're saying you want to buy games on Steam (AKA license them for YOUR account) and then play each one on a different computer at the same time on the SAME account? Why would YOU, yourself, need that functionality? You wouldn't, not ever, because you can't be in two places at once playing two different games. You think OTHER PEOPLE should be allowed to play your games (which you do not own, you licensed them for your own personal use) just because you're not currently playing them. THAT is piracy, dude. Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY! Its your own deluded wishful thinking that classifies it otherwise. Your idea of a "highly desirable feature" is completely illegal by intellectual property law.

Conversation over, good day sir.
 
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79. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:18 noman
 
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:05:
You know what, here's more to blow your mind..... SecuROM's implementation in Mirror's Edge, Crysis 1 or Burnout Paradise was the best and least user-offensive DRM scheme that I have ever seen. You could install games anywhere, with only install-time DRM server checks, de-register games, and have multiple simultaneous activations. If the purpose of DRM is to act as a deterrence for large scale misuse, while still allowing users to have a breathing room and flexibility, then it did succeed.

The only thing blowing my mind is how you champion a pathetic piece of shit DRM that would only allow you THREE INSTALLS MAXIMUM over Steam. You seem to have forgotten that that Securom DRM often came with a 3 install limit, forcing you to have to contact support and beg for more installations. It was patched out of a few games later on, but not all. Furthermore, if you ever had to reinstall your OS and never had the chance (or simply forgot) to uninstall game X first, that activation was gone.

Yeah, no, great system there. SO much better than Steam! Rolleyes

Instead of rolling eyes, try to understand what I wrote. SecuROM system and the policies are two different things. Most of the idiotic complaints were about the system (privacy, root access, hardware defects and what not) which were false. The policies however were left to the publishers. You may notice, I mentioned three games by name, which had complete freedom of how you manage the DRM scheme. The ability to de-register the key was built into the game-group created in the start menu. Games like Arkham Asylum even free up extra activations every two three weeks.

None of the existing DRMs give this much freedom, and almost all require you to create an account and register a game without a possibility of removing it afterwards.

This comment was edited on Apr 10, 2013, 19:33.
 
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78. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:10 noman
 
Verno wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:46:
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Steam is one of the worst DRM's around. It doesn't allow playing *different* games simultaneously from the same account, let alone running the same game on different PCs. The offline mode is still not fully functional, in the sense, that you often have to be online to go offline.

Nah you can launch multiple games at the same time I think, I remember doing it by accident once. You can't be logged into the same account at the same time from different locations for obvious reasons. Also the offline mode works fine now, they finally fixed it up a few patches ago. If you get unplugged there's a time out period then it asks you to go into offline mode, I use it all the time on the road.

It's good, if the offline mode finally works the way it should have been so from the beginning. I much prefer, how UPlay and Origin handle offline mode. I'll check if Steam has indeed made some progress there.

Running multiple games from different PCs on the same account however is very disruptive, unless you permanently keep one PC in offline mode.

The spawned copy concept of games has unfortunately died out too so I can't really fault them for not having that. Most of your points would need cooperation/permission from the industry as well.

My point isn't about the legality or reasons behind certain company practices and EULA clauses rather the intent and the effectiveness of the DRM to apply that EULA to the detriment of how certain folks use this system. For me, Steam is very restrictive, and Origin, UPlay and other DRM methods are much less so. May be in time, they'll match up to Steam in this regards, but for now, they remain a lesser evil in my books.
 
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77. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:05 Creston
 
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:55:
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:33:
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Even Origin, UPlay and Games for Window Live provide much fewer hassles.

Oooo...kay. Time to put the crack pipe down, buddy.

In the current implementation, all the DRM schemes I mentioned allow far more freedom in how you play and install games on multiple PCs, compared to Steam, strictly from DRM perspective.

They don't do any such thing. In fact, both Origin and Uplay function exactly the same way as Steam does. You can install the game onto an unlimited amount of PCs, but you can only actively play it on one of those at the same time.

As far as installing games, yes, Steam is crap in that it doesn't allow you to set the install folder except for a handful of games. Origin is better in this regard, as is Uplay. It's never been a big issue to me as I have all my games on the same drive anyway, and it's something that's circumvented with a few clicks to link drives, so I hardly consider it a major deal.

You know what, here's more to blow your mind..... SecuROM's implementation in Mirror's Edge, Crysis 1 or Burnout Paradise was the best and least user-offensive DRM scheme that I have ever seen. You could install games anywhere, with only install-time DRM server checks, de-register games, and have multiple simultaneous activations. If the purpose of DRM is to act as a deterrence for large scale misuse, while still allowing users to have a breathing room and flexibility, then it did succeed.

The only thing blowing my mind is how you champion a pathetic piece of shit DRM that would only allow you THREE INSTALLS MAXIMUM over Steam. You seem to have forgotten that that Securom DRM often came with a 3 install limit, forcing you to have to contact support and beg for more installations. It was patched out of a few games later on, but not all. Furthermore, if you ever had to reinstall your OS and never had the chance (or simply forgot) to uninstall game X first, that activation was gone.

Yeah, no, great system there. SO much better than Steam! Rolleyes

And again, playing the game on multiple PCs at the same time IS considered unwanted by publishers, and you can avoid it with Steam by simply switching it to offline mode. (For that matter, Origin and Uplay will allow that too.)

Anyway, whatever, if you want to hate Steam and pretend that Games for Windows Live is actually better, go right ahead. I have better things to do than to argue with delusional individuals.

Creston
 
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76. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:05 Redmask
 
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:55:
In the current implementation, all the DRM schemes I mentioned allow far more freedom in how you play and install games on multiple PCs, compared to Steam, strictly from DRM perspective.

You can play and install games on multiple PCs with Steam, you just can't do it simultaneously. Origin doesn't let me run two copies of Battlefield 3 either. Most digital services are account based and while some let you run singleplayer executables, it's not really a supported feature if you read the TOS. I can load some games without using Origin but not others, some games work standalone without Steam but many require it and so on.

The market long ago voted on per game DRM and they don't like it. I'm sorry you disagree but the market has decided that account based services are the future and most people find Steams implementation fairly benign and acceptable.
 
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75. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 19:02 Flatline
 
Julio wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:15:
Flatline wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 17:59:
Where's the lie?

Their promise "A Digital Downloadable copy of the game, DRM free"
What they are delivering: "a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns"..."unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game"... "future DLC will only be available through Steam"

I don't see in their promise of a DRM free game that it will not have access to future DLC, and that it may or may not have access to community-created content. They also talk about a one-time update, so who knows if its going to get patched on an as needed basis. Maybe they should have added all the fine print when they planned their kickstarter. Or just told the full truth from the beginning.

Lots of Steam fanatics on Blue's, but Steam is still DRM.

Err... they already said like a year ago that they had to ditch the in-game browser, and you didn't pipe up then that I remember. Because in the end it comes down to: do you want an in-game browser or more game? They picked more game. Here comes Steam, and they say "we'll take care of that for you actually" and it can go back in. It's not like this is a big studio: They're making a game on around a million and a half.

And I went back and looked at the original pitch, hell even the stretch update pitches, and nowhere do they EVER mention DLC (I did find a "it's too early to even think about that"), other than, perhaps, the Berlin pack, which you're still getting DRM free.

Quit moving the goalposts dude. You're wrong here. You can get the full game DRM free, or you can use steam to get the full game and extra. The only thing that they've rolled back on that I've seen was the inability to share PCs as running mates, and they were honest about that- it's a money thing. There's just not enough of it.
 
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74. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 18:57 Flatline
 
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:55:
Flatline wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:41:
Oh, also, with 4th ed, it's way, way easier to *not* actually throw that stunball (which you're right is f*cking death), but to summon a force 14 spirit that throws Stunball 14 on your behalf. Oh, and that spirit basically has 14's for it's stats, so even if your sammy gets init, he's still f*cked. Joy!

And that's horseshit. Nothing in 2nd edition stopped you from trying to summon a Force 14 elemental. Except the fact that that Force Rating was likely higher than your Magic rating (and it's doubtful that you were a Force 8 Initiate), so the Drain becomes physical instead of stun, and you now have a 14D physical drain to try to whisk away with your willpower. Good luck?

How the fuck can you now summon that shit in 4th edition?

Where earlier SR games were kind of a joyful mess, I have a particular dark spot in my heart for 4th ed. They did one thing very right (switch to static target numbers) and did everything else entirely wrong. Matrix rules are still a nightmare (the in-text introduction to basic hacking took, I shit you not, over 38 dice pool rolls in real life, for a 5 second hack), vehicle rules are borked to the point where riggers are barely existent, and magic/summoning is way overpowered.

Sounds great... New editions of PnP rpgs now all seem to be "let's just make shit completely nonsensical and flashy, so the bros will play it!" Rolleyes

Creston

As far as the uber-spirits, I'd have to look into it (I stopped playing 4th a while back), but it had something to do with a way that you'd resist drain at half the spirit force, so throwing a force 14 spirit was actually fairly soakable, and way better than throwing a single spell at anything near that strength.

The problem with the matrix rules in 4th is that... well... first the people who wrote the aren't good at math, so the dice mechanics break under moderate examination, and two, they didn't actually *think* of how a wireless full mesh matrix would actually function, so it's like 25% wifi for dummies and 75% Swordfish. So you're doing "cool" stuff like triangulating the signal of a commlink in order to hack it, but at the same time if you drop into VR/Hot Sim you just *see* what's going on, but you still have to... oh christ I give up. It just adds rolls on for no apparent reason. Plus, you can break the matrix rules with what one of the older developers called "the hall of mirrors", where you're allowed to run infinite agents on your commlink that explicitly take up no resources in order to create basically an impossible-to-breach defense because it's an infinite series of point-to-point links you have to go through before you can actually attack the commlink.

Part of the problem is that CGL fired almost all of their entire freelance staff about a year into 4th ed, after it turned out that they "accidentally co-mingled" (their term not mine) most of the company's money with their own and couldn't pay their bills. They have a couple decent freelancers now, but all of the old guard is gone, and the writing sucks for it. Freelancers have admitted, for example, that there is zero proofing. No spell checking, no editing, nothing other than basic typesetting.
 
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73. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 18:55 noman
 
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:33:
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Even Origin, UPlay and Games for Window Live provide much fewer hassles.

Oooo...kay. Time to put the crack pipe down, buddy.

In the current implementation, all the DRM schemes I mentioned allow far more freedom in how you play and install games on multiple PCs, compared to Steam, strictly from DRM perspective.

You know what, here's more to blow your mind..... SecuROM's implementation in Mirror's Edge, Crysis 1 or Burnout Paradise was the best and least user-offensive DRM scheme that I have ever seen. You could install games anywhere, with only install-time DRM server checks, de-register games, and have multiple simultaneous activations. If the purpose of DRM is to act as a deterrence for large scale misuse, while still allowing users to have a breathing room and flexibility, then it did succeed.
 
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72. Re: Steam and DRM-Free Shadowrun Returns in June Apr 10, 2013, 18:45 noman
 
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:40:
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Steam is one of the worst DRM's around.

In your, apparently biased, opinion. Or you just live under a very large rock...

It doesn't allow playing *different* games simultaneously from the same account,

Untrue, I just launched multiple games right now. Unless you mean playing different games on different PCs on the same account at the same time? That's called piracy, and it's an unreasonable request.[/quest]

Since when did playing different games on different PCs become piracy? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!

Even playing the same game on different PCs, which while against some EULAs, is still a highly desirable feature. So I won't fault Steam here, but I much appreciate other DRM schemes that don't actually apply these EULAs.
 
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