Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:

Regularly scheduled events

Op Ed

Rock, Paper, Shotgun - Misogyny, Sexism, And Why RPS Isn’t Shutting Up. Also on Pastebin with no ads to make a point.
I want to try to break down why people object to the discussion, why there is a concerted effort to deny the need for the discussion, and to explain how my own tangential role in it all has affected me. I want to do this because I want to dispel myths, raise awareness, and encourage others to speak out. For those who think such articles are “preaching to the choir”, were that true, I certainly want that choir to be bolstered, encouraged to sing louder and truer. Sadly it’s not entirely true, as is evidenced by the responses any such article receives on RPS. I want to speak to those people too.

View
60 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 ] Older >

60. Re: More Big Picture Details Apr 7, 2013, 15:08 HorrorScope
 
TurdFergasun wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 12:42:
HorrorScope wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 10:58:
I'm sure I've missed some of the point.

But every so often someone here is bitching about a game and some one throws down the card "Write your own game then".

Well for the little I've picked up here, I think perhaps this is what the card was designed for. To those that don't like how women are portrayed in games... "Write your own game then". This is a creative entertainment market, people are freely making what they want, so can you.

The problem is, that game would be a flop, unless it was an indie, crowdfunded game. The demographics aren't in place for a non stereotypical female protagonist to lead a predominantly male audience into being excited about, enjoying, or buying such a game. It's almost like the feminazis are mad that men wish for stereotypical behavior from women in their fantasies, more than any glorious attempt to defeat sexism from the world. That and bitches be crazy for attention.


Then they need to face reality. As you say "men wish for stereotypical behavior from women in their fantasies", yep and telling us to do or want something else, is the opposite wrong of their own plight. They'll need to foster a legion of woman who think the same so it can gain commercial success. Maybe they can make a line of reality games, so real you don't even need to play it.

I think minimum wage is too low. Where can I cry about it? We all got problems bigger then ourselves, get a number and get in line.
 
Avatar 17232
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
59. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 14:03 Cutter
 
Guess we have to do away with marketing altogether then because almost all of it treats women like they're nothing more than dumb sluts. Dove's campaign for real beauty...brought to you by the makers of Axe. Every commercial involving booze or cars or house cleaning products all reinforce those negative stereotypes. And they've been doing far long and much more intensely than any game could ever come close to. Except maybe a Playboy game made by a hypocrite like Brenda Romero. There's nothing but injustice all through society. So I really don't have any sympathy for a woman making a bit less money than a man when there's all manner of worse shit to deal with.


 
Avatar 25394
 
"Bye weeks? Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye weeks, and now he's dead… Well, maybe they're a good thing." - Moe
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
58. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 12:54 PropheT
 
Flatline wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 03:01:
Wait, why do we have to have "girl games" and "guy games"? How about games that don't portray women as sexual fetishes, hyperbolic stereotypes, or victims? Surely teaching boys not to treat women as only being worthy of wank fodder can't be seen as a bad thing.

And as far as the industry being "male driven", at one point that was true, but women make up around half of gamers out there. And interestingly enough, they aren't looking to play My Little Pony- really little kids and college frat boys play MLP. The idea that women *need* "girl games" is in and of itself sexist and bigoted. Separate but equal was a shameful argument when it was about race, it's shameful here too.

Here. Come read this blog:

We have girl games and guy games for the same reason that Cosmopolitan is a women's magazing and Playboy is a men's. Should Cosmo start running articles for guys, and Playboy throwing in the occasional male centerfold to cater to a female audience? There's all kinds of other examples out there of stuff that caters to both, but the problem with rants like the one in the article is that they focus on the extremes to make an example, only applying the facts that fit their argument in order to even have an argument.

As far as teaching boys anything, most of these games are made for adults. "Think of the children" is always ridiculous when you're not specifically talking about children's things.

Women make up half of the gamers out there when you consider game types like phone games, facebook games, and others. Sure, they play Gears of War and so on, but there aren't even remotely close to equal numbers of men and women playing the hardcore games that are being talked about.

Removing "Implicit tolerance" doesn't mean complete acceptance of anything that isn't milquetoast. As for the blog, all I can say is whatever... people acting like dicks to people on the internet? You don't say. Sound black or asian on XBL? You'll get the same thing. Have a southern accent? Same thing. Not native english speaking? Good luck. There's a subset of people who will take any opportunity they can get to use the differences between them and their target to belittle whoever they're in contact with. It's prevalent in the gaming community because it's prevalent in the online community because it's prevalent in society...the filters on that idiocy are just turned off on the internet.

In short, what's your argument. What's your fix? Go through Steam right now and pick out the games that are misogynist using a definition other than that a woman shows cleavage in a picture. Start comparing what you find to books, magazines, movies, or popular music and then tell me that gaming is any different.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
57. Re: More Big Picture Details Apr 7, 2013, 12:42 TurdFergasun
 
HorrorScope wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 10:58:
I'm sure I've missed some of the point.

But every so often someone here is bitching about a game and some one throws down the card "Write your own game then".

Well for the little I've picked up here, I think perhaps this is what the card was designed for. To those that don't like how women are portrayed in games... "Write your own game then". This is a creative entertainment market, people are freely making what they want, so can you.

The problem is, that game would be a flop, unless it was an indie, crowdfunded game. The demographics aren't in place for a non stereotypical female protagonist to lead a predominantly male audience into being excited about, enjoying, or buying such a game. It's almost like the feminazis are mad that men wish for stereotypical behavior from women in their fantasies, more than any glorious attempt to defeat sexism from the world. That and bitches be crazy for attention.

 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
56. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 12:06 J
 
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:10:
CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:08:
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 14:54:
And here's a great rebuttal from an actual girl. Shock, horror!

That video had a disturbing lack of titties!!1

There, here's some bouncing titties for you.
Seems fitting
 
Avatar 45926
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
55. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 11:14 Scottish Martial Arts
 
PHJF wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 08:47:
The next time somebody comes to me with a problem of theirs I'm going to tell them to fuck off because at least they aren't in Afghanistan. Problem solved!

I didn't mean to come off that way, although rereading my posts I certainly did sound as if that was what I suggesting. My main point was that people just need to keep things in perspective.

Having worked with foster kids for a while now, the average age I work with is about 15 or so, and about 8 out of 10 of the kids I work with are completely fucked. Let me repeat that: 15 years old and your life is completely fucked. Now strictly speaking, there's generally nothing physically stopping them, such as being wheel chair bound, from turning their life around, but the sum total of the shit they have been through, and all the things that their shitbag parents neglected to teach or instill in them, is such that they don't have the habits, knowledge, or skills to make the decisions necessary to turn things around. Aristotle was absolutely right when he suggested that good habits are essential to virtuous behavior, and that those who develop bad habits at an early age will rarely if ever live virtuous lives. And by the time the kid is a teenager it's generally game over: their habits have formed, they have a natural (for their age) distrust of authority figures and desire to assert themselves as individuals, and no one ever instilled in them virtues that create a moral compass (shoplifting is bad, recreational drugs probably won't move my life forward, school is essential to having any sort of life, etc.). These kids are absolutely making bad choices, but who, in their right mind, would think these bad choices are on them, and not on the people whose only qualification to raise a child was a functioning womb and a wad of sperm? The thing is though, it's the kid who gets to bear the consequence of parental incompetence: a ruined life for the next generation.

Your life, and my life, is pretty good in comparison, huh? I'm certainly not going to get worked up if I ever find myself making less than my coworkers for some arbitrary and unfair reason. I'd try to fix it, sure, just as we should try to fix unequal pay between men and women, but we shouldn't pretend that, in the scheme of things, this is some great evil. A minor evil, to be sure, but not a great one.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
54. Re: More Big Picture Details Apr 7, 2013, 10:58 HorrorScope
 
I'm sure I've missed some of the point.

But every so often someone here is bitching about a game and some one throws down the card "Write your own game then".

Well for the little I've picked up here, I think perhaps this is what the card was designed for. To those that don't like how women are portrayed in games... "Write your own game then". This is a creative entertainment market, people are freely making what they want, so can you.

It seems one side wants to fix the issue by doing a 180 when just a 90 is needed. The lacking side needs to step up and balance the playing field, not shackle the dominant one, that's not how it should work. You surely don't want to say "I can beat them, it's just they have to have one-hand tied behind their back to do so", that's a shallow victory.

Or just understand this is all biology, sure we can make points, but don't expect miracles. There shouldn't be sides here, you want something to be played out in a certain way in a game.... Write your own then. They already exist, some do well, some do not, the market decides.
 
Avatar 17232
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
53. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 10:33 Julio
 
Looks like RPS has lost their relevance, they can target the small percentage of the 20% of hardcore female gamers who actually believe their crap.

The women in the "Hot 40" article were not forced into wearing the clothes they had on. I don't think women in the gaming industry want to be forced to wear the burka either. Given some of the women in the list were not very attractive, I'm not even sure the article was about attractiveness (or there aren't a lot of good looking women in tech).

Even if it was, attractiveness is a tool that gets some people ahead, and some of them are using it by dressing the way they do. It's not any different than any industry, male or female.

If sites like Machima want to use quasi-porn to increase views on their videos, they can. Everyone's a willing participant - so no problem.

The article had no examples of real sexism, just another attempt to Bobbitt men for some cheap ratings.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
52. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 08:48 ledhead1969
 
I don't visit these sites for their social commentary...I visit them to ESCAPE it from every other news source. FFS. No more RPS for me, just one less site to have to check.  
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
51. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 08:47 PHJF
 
This is a video games web site. The article addresses gender issues within the industry of video games.

The next time somebody comes to me with a problem of theirs I'm going to tell them to fuck off because at least they aren't in Afghanistan. Problem solved!
 
Avatar 17251
 
Steam + PSN: PHJF
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
50. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 04:31 Dmitri_M
 
First world problems.

This is only an issue if you live in the US or mainland Europe.

Everywhere else misogyny is alive and well. Not in silly video games. In the real world.

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 2013, 04:39.
 
Avatar 22350
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
49. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 03:16 netnerd85
 
Talking about wage. I'd like to point out that married men are sometimes paid more than single men. So it's not a gender issue, it's a wide social issue.

Some people are paid more because they "deserve" it, higher education, more experienced. Men have been in the work force longer than women, generally. This is fading fast and so will the issue.

It's just a social change and it is happening/changing now.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
48. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 03:03 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Flatline wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 02:52:
The inequality and gender bias against women is HARDLY a "first world problem". It manifests in different ways depending on the culture. Here in the US, it manifests in a payroll prejudice, and slut shaming if you're raped (I'll go ahead and point to Stubenville to show you what I mean). In some countries, you're put to death if you're the victim of the rape because you've slut shamed your family so bad by being raped.


I've bolded the key part. Sure, pay inequality is part of a larger problem that is serious. That yuppy women make slightly less money than yuppy men, however, is not the moral equivalent of being stoned to death for being raped.

In a perfect world, society would treat men and women equally. We don't live in a perfect world. That some women chose to treat their marginally smaller income as a horrific crime of oppression that has rendered them helpless victims is not proof of great injustice, but proof of their own self-absorption and ingratitude for how good they have it. You know, the word cisgendered, antonym to transgendered, was thrown around a few times in this thread and the article that prompted it. Do you know how many transgendered women are unemployed, and thus making zero pennies on the dollar, as opposed to 85 pennies? No one knows for certain, but estimates are in the 50-60% range. If you get to know the trans community a bit, anecdotally, you'll quickly discover that the ONLY trans women who are not destitute are either sex workers or post-college transitioners who are software engineers. Everyone else flounders in poverty. Not to mention the snide remarks, stares, etc. they get for just having the temerity of going out in public, nor to mention the anguish they experience for not having the security of being secure in their gender identity. There's some privilege for an upset upper-class feminist to check: having the privilege of the world treating your gender as if it's normal and natural.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
47. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 03:01 Flatline
 
PropheT wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 22:22:
The reason I never get behind any of this, uh, crap is because it's so all-inclusive. Game shows bare breasts? Misogynist. Game has male lead characters, no female lead? Sexist. Rinse, repeat, for absolutely anything writer can find to support that argument.

It's generalist bullshit dismissing the entire medium as anti-female because there are some prominent examples you can pick out in a primarily male-driven hobby. A lot of it is going to be made for men, because the audience is primarily men. That doesn't mean it's anti-woman, or even sexist, any more than movie theaters are anti-male because they have Sex and the City 1 and 2 and Meg Ryan movies and whatever. Some stuff is made for you, some is made for me. Why don't we see more third person shooters made with the sensibilities of girl gamers in mind? Because men playing them make up enough of the market that there's not much of a choice come funding time.

Point is, you can have your cake and eat it too. If there's enough of a demand for the kind of games that we want to classify as girl games, then they'll get made, sell well, and the market for them will increase and flourish. And if they do, fantastic...but that doesn't mean games that aren't like that need to disappear for it to happen.

Sometimes nobody listens because they aren't aware of the objections, but sometimes they just aren't listening because what you're saying is stupid.

Wait, why do we have to have "girl games" and "guy games"? How about games that don't portray women as sexual fetishes, hyperbolic stereotypes, or victims? Surely teaching boys not to treat women as only being worthy of wank fodder can't be seen as a bad thing.

And as far as the industry being "male driven", at one point that was true, but women make up around half of gamers out there. And interestingly enough, they aren't looking to play My Little Pony- really little kids and college frat boys play MLP. The idea that women *need* "girl games" is in and of itself sexist and bigoted. Separate but equal was a shameful argument when it was about race, it's shameful here too.

Here. Come read this blog:

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

And see what kind of behavior implicit tolerance breeds.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
46. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 02:52 Flatline
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Apr 7, 2013, 02:46:
Quboid wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 20:29:
It's not the biggest problem in the world, but does that mean we should ignore it? Should we ignore everything except whatever is the biggest problem?

Didn't say that. But it strikes me as a very first world problem compared to what I see on a daily basis. And if I worked with poor people from the third world, rather than foster kids from the San Francisco Bay Area? Well, the cup of rage would runneth over the next time I meet some educated, well-to-do, white or Asian woman who feels a great injustice has been done to her because she is statistically more likely to make marginally less money than her male coworkers.

Is it an injustice? Sure. Should we right injustice where ever possible? Of course. But is it comparable to being 11 years old and having a dad who sells your food stamps so he can buy drugs for himself and his girlfriend? No, absolutely not, and anyone who suggests that it is needs to wake the fuck up.

The inequality and gender bias against women is HARDLY a "first world problem". It manifests in different ways depending on the culture. Here in the US, it manifests in a payroll prejudice, and slut shaming if you're raped (I'll go ahead and point to Stubenville to show you what I mean). In some countries, you're put to death if you're the victim of the rape because you've slut shamed your family so bad by being raped.

It's still the same bigoted point of view that fuels each.

"Try not to be a bigot" isn't exactly something that needs prioritization. It's one of those skills that *should* come around the same time you learn to wipe your ass.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
45. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 02:46 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Quboid wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 20:29:
It's not the biggest problem in the world, but does that mean we should ignore it? Should we ignore everything except whatever is the biggest problem?

Didn't say that. But it strikes me as a very first world problem compared to what I see on a daily basis. And if I worked with poor people from the third world, rather than foster kids from the San Francisco Bay Area? Well, the cup of rage would runneth over the next time I meet some educated, well-to-do, white or Asian woman who feels a great injustice has been done to her because she is statistically more likely to make marginally less money than her male coworkers.

Is it an injustice? Sure. Should we right injustice where ever possible? Of course. But is it comparable to being 11 years old and having a dad who sells your food stamps so he can buy drugs for himself and his girlfriend? No, absolutely not, and anyone who suggests that it is needs to wake the fuck up. There's a lot of evil in this world, and most of it is beyond anyone's ability to fix. The Greek's were right: human existence is inherently tragic. Don't settle for injustice, but also be grateful that Zeus didn't give you a destiny from the jar purely of evil, rather than the jar containing evil mixed with the good, because chances are, there are people -- not far away in the third world, but in the very city in which you live -- who, through no fault of their own, have lives much worse than yours.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
44. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 01:52 netnerd85
 
Prez wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 16:24:
OH. Jesus. FUCKING. CHRIST!! This whiny namby pamby bullshit again?!? Fuck, this incessant crying by supposed grownups makes me want throw up. No fucking way I am give the crybabies who think they are "new age males" by constantly drumming this shit up for attention another single hit.

Indeed.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
43. Re: Op Ed Apr 7, 2013, 01:38 netnerd85
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 18:29:
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:44:
netnerd85 wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:31:
Cutter wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 13:38:
I much prefer, rum, sodomy, and the lash.
Keep your rum and lash (not sure what that is TBH :|) but I'm all for sodomy - Vodka helps here!

*30 mins of politically incorrect comments that weren't published here*

He was paraphrasing Churchill's famous quip that the history of the Royal Navy is that of "rum, sodomy, and the lash." And a lash is simply an improvised whip, with whipping being a common disciplinary measure on board Royal Navy vessels of the Age of Sail.

As for the article in question, anyone whose stated objective is to "raise awareness" needs to be put against a wall and shot. I've gradually shifted leftward in my political convictions over the last decade or so -- although I still consider myself a moderate pragmatist -- but one thing that continues to irk me is leftwing "activists" who feel that "raising awareness" accomplishes anything more than their own self-satisfaction.

Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash is what I was thinking of.
Pfft, well, that's boring
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
42. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 22:22 PropheT
 
The reason I never get behind any of this, uh, crap is because it's so all-inclusive. Game shows bare breasts? Misogynist. Game has male lead characters, no female lead? Sexist. Rinse, repeat, for absolutely anything writer can find to support that argument.

It's generalist bullshit dismissing the entire medium as anti-female because there are some prominent examples you can pick out in a primarily male-driven hobby. A lot of it is going to be made for men, because the audience is primarily men. That doesn't mean it's anti-woman, or even sexist, any more than movie theaters are anti-male because they have Sex and the City 1 and 2 and Meg Ryan movies and whatever. Some stuff is made for you, some is made for me. Why don't we see more third person shooters made with the sensibilities of girl gamers in mind? Because men playing them make up enough of the market that there's not much of a choice come funding time.

Point is, you can have your cake and eat it too. If there's enough of a demand for the kind of games that we want to classify as girl games, then they'll get made, sell well, and the market for them will increase and flourish. And if they do, fantastic...but that doesn't mean games that aren't like that need to disappear for it to happen.

Sometimes nobody listens because they aren't aware of the objections, but sometimes they just aren't listening because what you're saying is stupid.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
41. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 21:05 Sho
 
The other thing I don't get is, why is criticism of sexism supposed to be only valid if it's motivated by selflessness, and automatically invalid if the desired outcome serves the critic in some way? Like I said in the earlier comment, a major reason it annoys me that the industry keeps turning women away is because I feel my own experiences with the hobby would be improved if there were more women considering gaming as leisure activity, because it's been true in all other areas of life. Gaming is often social, be that the actual playing of them or discussing them, and it's boring to only have male minds around much of the time (and so is the disproportionate amount of games that deal exclusively in male viewpoints; it's interesting to get exposed to other stuff too, and games, being interactive, can do it like no other thing). And I think that's a perfectly fine reason, even if completely selfish, to complain when folks like Sony create environments hostile to women. And that's just about having the empathy to conceive that with shit like that gaming might not stack up very attractively vs. all the other things one can chose to spend one's precious time on.

This comment was edited on Apr 6, 2013, 21:15.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
60 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 ] Older >


footer

Blue's News logo