Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:

Regularly scheduled events

Op Ed

Rock, Paper, Shotgun - Misogyny, Sexism, And Why RPS Isn’t Shutting Up. Also on Pastebin with no ads to make a point.
I want to try to break down why people object to the discussion, why there is a concerted effort to deny the need for the discussion, and to explain how my own tangential role in it all has affected me. I want to do this because I want to dispel myths, raise awareness, and encourage others to speak out. For those who think such articles are “preaching to the choir”, were that true, I certainly want that choir to be bolstered, encouraged to sing louder and truer. Sadly it’s not entirely true, as is evidenced by the responses any such article receives on RPS. I want to speak to those people too.

View
60 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 ] Older >

40. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 20:29 Quboid
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 17:16:
And to be perfectly blunt, given the scope and severity of what your average foster kid, for example, has been through, the fact that upper middle to upper class college educated cisgendered white women make about 15% less than their male counterparts strikes me as relatively minor problem in the scheme of things.

It's not the biggest problem in the world, but does that mean we should ignore it? Should we ignore everything except whatever is the biggest problem?
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
39. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 19:42 Sho
 
Dunno, I keep seeing stuff like Sony's PSP Vita ad likening the device to a four-breasted woman which can only serve to remind women that the device was conceived without their consideration in mind. And that's far worse than any single game purposely limiting its audience because it's an entire platform and affects anyone developing for it. Of course women are capable of shrugging off an ad like that, but why would they bother? Gaming is a leisure activity, and there's plenty of those to chose from which are equally fun and valid; if a social scene and/or market was constantly and actively messaging me that it doesn't care about me I wouldn't exactly feel compelled or have the energy to go up against that, or feel it deserved my attention, either. It doesn't surprise me that it's not worth the asking price for a lot of women right now.

And as a man I think that's a shame, because I enjoy socializing and sharing my hobbies with men and women alike, because individuals of both genders have a lot to offer, and unique perspectives shaped by their different experiences in life.

As long as there are bullshit artificial impediments against that like that ad I'd say more power to the people who point at it. And if it makes them feel good about themselves I can totally live with that.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
38. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 18:29 Cutter
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:44:
netnerd85 wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:31:
Cutter wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 13:38:
I much prefer, rum, sodomy, and the lash.
Keep your rum and lash (not sure what that is TBH :|) but I'm all for sodomy - Vodka helps here!

*30 mins of politically incorrect comments that weren't published here*

He was paraphrasing Churchill's famous quip that the history of the Royal Navy is that of "rum, sodomy, and the lash." And a lash is simply an improvised whip, with whipping being a common disciplinary measure on board Royal Navy vessels of the Age of Sail.

As for the article in question, anyone whose stated objective is to "raise awareness" needs to be put against a wall and shot. I've gradually shifted leftward in my political convictions over the last decade or so -- although I still consider myself a moderate pragmatist -- but one thing that continues to irk me is leftwing "activists" who feel that "raising awareness" accomplishes anything more than their own self-satisfaction.

Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash is what I was thinking of.
 
Avatar 25394
 
James Woods: Oh that's fun. That sounds like you had a fun time. Where would I fit in with the fun time, huh? Where does James Woods fit into the fun?
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
37. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 17:35 ASeven
 
Draugr wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 16:31:
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:55:
Valid points on the industry in general. However if you want a nice rebuttal, Thunderfoot's videos are great at dismantling the whole modern feminism pseudo-theory, along with a lot of other good videos out there.

You mean that video you linked to that where 3 minutes in he accuses anyone who disagrees with his premise of being a 'white knight?' Accusing people of 'white knighting' is far from a place of reason and dismantles nothing.

If I didn't know any better I'd think you were a plant to help prove the point this article is trying to make. You seem to be more interested in checking off all the bad arguments that are discussed in this article then actually engaging in any discussion. -- Which, as mentioned, is the point of such arguments.

The moment an idea is thrown out but discussion of it is shut then that idea becomes worthless since it's impossible to discuss it from both sides. Theunderfoot's video is correct because these people are whiteknighting, they are plunging into the idea without thinking about it, without thinking of the ramifications and pretty much being mindless in following whatever these web personalities of feminism tells them to do. And as thunderfoot says, the problem here is simple, thick skin or the lack of it and though he calls them, fairly in my opinions, a lot of names, he also doesn't shut out discussion and for me that's the crucial part. He doesn't shut out discussion, you can go and disagree with him all you want, or me, or whomever, but at least you have a place to disagree.

The moment an idea shuts down any chance of rebuttal, of analysis, of counter-pointing, the moment an idea does not lend itself to discussion then that idea becomes dangerous to all free expression. An idea, good or bad, must be open to discussion even if that discussion brings the inevitable trolls, idiots, braggarts, imbeciles, but that's the way of the internet and life, you can't use the excuse of people getting hurt by words to shut down discussion.

And that is why I stand strongly against this new kind of professional victim business and this is also why I have no patience to people like Yougon who instead of entering the discussion, harshly or softly, goes ahead and makes half-assed irony in a desperate attempt to wave away the discussion. As such I replied in kind since it is obvious we won't get anything of value out of him/her/it.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
36. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 17:35 killer_roach
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 17:16:
And to be perfectly blunt, given the scope and severity of what your average foster kid, for example, has been through, the fact that upper middle to upper class college educated cisgendered white women make about 15% less than their male counterparts strikes me as relatively minor problem in the scheme of things.

And if you control for choice of career field and hours worked, women often out-earn their male counterparts, especially so below the age of 40. (Have actually done research into this - it's not much, but the difference is statistically significant.)
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
35. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 17:16 Scottish Martial Arts
 
That or they want to be on record as doing their part to "make the world a better place" without having to actually put much effort into it beyond, say, a drive-by piece on a blog.

Seriously. Talk is cheap. As is visiting Tijuana for a whirlwind 4-day weekend to "build houses for the poor." Anyone that actually tries "to make the world a better place" for a career, as opposed to making the occasional impassioned blog post, can tell you how intractable most social problems are. By the time you've met a 12 year old gang member, a 13 year old meth addict, and a 14 year old prostitute, or two, you begin to recognize that any change you effect will be marginal at best, and anyone who thinks they've "done their part" by writing a blog post is completely blind.

And to be perfectly blunt, given the scope and severity of what your average foster kid, for example, has been through, the fact that upper middle to upper class college educated cisgendered white women make about 15% less than their male counterparts strikes me as relatively minor problem in the scheme of things.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
34. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 16:49 killer_roach
 
Quboid wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 16:34:
I broadly agree with this article but it smells of self satisfaction. He's right, and I think raising awareness is important, however these articles always have a moral smugness about them that I suppose is inevitable when arguing a moral position.

Well, if social science research is to be believed, most human displays of altruistic behavior are meant as facades to excuse other less-honorable behavior. Basically "I've done my good deed for the day, back to being a scumbag" - which yes, tends to be the tone a lot of these more cliched pieces take whether they intend to or not.

(That or they want to be on record as doing their part to "make the world a better place" without having to actually put much effort into it beyond, say, a drive-by piece on a blog.)
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
33. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 16:34 Quboid
 
I think the point about things like the Damsel in Distress is that the lack of imagination is causing unintended sexism. It's a cliche reinforcing gender stereotypes that wouldn't be acceptable in other contexts. It's somewhat like the less you think it's a problem, the more you prove it's a problem - except that's a wanky statement that implies disagreeing proves it's right.

I broadly agree with this article but it smells of self satisfaction. He's right, and I think raising awareness is important, however these articles always have a moral smugness about them that I suppose is inevitable when arguing a moral position.

Raising awareness is needed. I got into a discussion with someone here recently who said that perhaps if people like me stopped talking about racism, it would go away and I pointed out that when people didn't talk about racism, we had slavery. Likewise (in manner, not severity) when we didn't talk about how women are portrayed in gaming, gaming was a boy's club. It still is but as people talk about this (and how female gamers are too often treated by some), the less acceptable it becomes.

I've no desire to keep gaming a boy's club but even if I did, it's not my call or anyone else's. I think some feminists have (at best) lost sight of the goal of equality and are sexist and misandrist, but they're a minority.

Relating to this subject, this blog on women in comic books is very good and really makes me think about how it applies to games.
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
32. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 16:31 Draugr
 
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:55:
Valid points on the industry in general. However if you want a nice rebuttal, Thunderfoot's videos are great at dismantling the whole modern feminism pseudo-theory, along with a lot of other good videos out there.

You mean that video you linked to that where 3 minutes in he accuses anyone who disagrees with his premise of being a 'white knight?' Accusing people of 'white knighting' is far from a place of reason and dismantles nothing.

If I didn't know any better I'd think you were a plant to help prove the point this article is trying to make. You seem to be more interested in checking off all the bad arguments that are discussed in this article then actually engaging in any discussion. -- Which, as mentioned, is the point of such arguments.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
31. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 16:24 Prez
 
OH. Jesus. FUCKING. CHRIST!! This whiny namby pamby bullshit again?!? Fuck, this incessant crying by supposed grownups makes me want throw up. No fucking way I am give the crybabies who think they are "new age males" by constantly drumming this shit up for attention another single hit.

This comment was edited on Apr 6, 2013, 16:31.
 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
30. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 16:23 PHJF
 
Elizabeth in Infinite was the first mature female video game character in a long long long time to be executed with total class. When I heard they reduced her cleavage during development I was under the impression they were doing it to avoid offending people, but if she were the same busty broad from any other video game it would have completely ruined her character.  
Avatar 17251
 
Steam + PSN: PHJF
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
29. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 16:01 ASeven
 
And now I'll be waiting for the next Yaougon diatribe that pretty much equates to: "WAAAAAAAAAAAH people are talking sense in the net and now I much dismiss what people say because I'm a butthurt feminist! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Opinions are hurtful, shut them off, shut them off, shut them off!"  
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
28. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:55 ASeven
 
NKD wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:44:
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 14:54:
And here's a great rebuttal from an actual girl. Shock, horror!

Kind of a weak video. Points out flaws in that other video, but without putting forth any kind of solution, or even addressing whether or not there's an issue.

It's like a procedural critique rather than an actual counter-point. This girl never claims that there is, or isn't an issue that needs correcting. She also falls into the same trap as Anita Sarkeesian by focusing too much on two specific characters.

That's why point-by-point rebuttals are argumentatively weak. They miss the big picture. She didn't actually put forth any evidence that says that Anita is barking up the wrong tree, just that her arguments were not that strong. But neither are this girls. She gets her point across in an eloquent manner, but she doesn't actually make that strong of a point to begin with.

It's really a simple issue anyway. There isn't any overt, intentional sexism going on. It's just a lack of imagination. White male heterosexual game developers are going to make games that appeal to, and are largely about, white male heterosexual protagonists. That's who they identify strongest with, and who will first come to mind when creating a character. They have no motivation to create anything else, since no one is calling for a change.

As far as the Damsel in Distress goes, again, it's not sexism but lack of imagination. Games in general don't stray from the basic story tropes of yesteryear. The Damsel in Distress, the Mad Scientist, the Kid Hero, the Supervillain with no real motivations other than just being the best villain he can be. That many of these tropes are sexist is coincidental.

Now, that's not to say there isn't an issue here. But the issue isn't intentional sexism, it's boring cliche writing.

But the issue IS something that warrants some change: The industry shouldn't branch out to appease feminists. They should branch out to attract more customers. They've hit the cap on white male heterosexuals 18-35. It's time to maybe think about expanding their customer base instead of continually milking the rest of us for more and more cash.


Valid points on the industry in general. However if you want a nice rebuttal, Thunderfoot's videos are great at dismantling the whole modern feminism pseudo-theory, along with a lot of other good videos out there.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
27. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:54 ASeven
 
Yaogun wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:34:
Oh man you hit it right on the head! There used to be places a man could go. Gaming! Atheism! These were *our* clubs. Places where we were the default like we aren't anywhere else in life. We were the gatekeepers!

And look at them now. I share your pain, my fearless gender equality warrior bro. Look at them now! Now people have the nerve to TURN OFF COMMENTS ON A POST. That's pure CENSORSHIP! Why isn't everyone else angry about this?

At least we have each other. Those of us with thick skins who aren't professional victims need to take up arms and write long diatribes about these 'miserable sacks of shit' and bring up unrelated causes on web sites!

And here we have an example of an idiot that doesn't take the time to actually read anything but just talk out of his ass. Congrats, you win idiot of the day award. BTW, whiteknighting these professional victims won't get you laid, you know?

You're the perfect example of a feminist, unable to argue the validity of the modern theory and instead acting like a victim or trying to dismiss anything that goes against your dear victimization with idiotic irony.

Here's a tip for you, chum: Get educated and actually start reading facts instead of diarrhea spouted by professional web victims.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
26. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:49 vrok
 
Apparently, these self conscious supposedly cisgendered males and females specifying cisgendered all the time automatically give themselves the illusion of being intelligent and having valid points.

Do these people also use the term cisgendered when describing other animals I wonder?
 
Avatar 54711
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
25. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:44 Scottish Martial Arts
 
netnerd85 wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 15:31:
Cutter wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 13:38:
I much prefer, rum, sodomy, and the lash.
Keep your rum and lash (not sure what that is TBH :|) but I'm all for sodomy - Vodka helps here!

*30 mins of politically incorrect comments that weren't published here*

He was paraphrasing Churchill's famous quip that the history of the Royal Navy is that of "rum, sodomy, and the lash." And a lash is simply an improvised whip, with whipping being a common disciplinary measure on board Royal Navy vessels of the Age of Sail.

As for the article in question, anyone whose stated objective is to "raise awareness" needs to be put against a wall and shot. I've gradually shifted leftward in my political convictions over the last decade or so -- although I still consider myself a moderate pragmatist -- but one thing that continues to irk me is leftwing "activists" who feel that "raising awareness" accomplishes anything more than their own self-satisfaction.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
24. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:44 NKD
 
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 14:54:
And here's a great rebuttal from an actual girl. Shock, horror!

Kind of a weak video. Points out flaws in that other video, but without putting forth any kind of solution, or even addressing whether or not there's an issue.

It's like a procedural critique rather than an actual counter-point. This girl never claims that there is, or isn't an issue that needs correcting. She also falls into the same trap as Anita Sarkeesian by focusing too much on two specific characters.

That's why point-by-point rebuttals are argumentatively weak. They miss the big picture. She didn't actually put forth any evidence that says that Anita is barking up the wrong tree, just that her arguments were not that strong. But neither are this girls. She gets her point across in an eloquent manner, but she doesn't actually make that strong of a point to begin with.

It's really a simple issue anyway. There isn't any overt, intentional sexism going on. It's just a lack of imagination. White male heterosexual game developers are going to make games that appeal to, and are largely about, white male heterosexual protagonists. That's who they identify strongest with, and who will first come to mind when creating a character. They have no motivation to create anything else, since no one is calling for a change.

As far as the Damsel in Distress goes, again, it's not sexism but lack of imagination. Games in general don't stray from the basic story tropes of yesteryear. The Damsel in Distress, the Mad Scientist, the Kid Hero, the Supervillain with no real motivations other than just being the best villain he can be. That many of these tropes are sexist is coincidental.

Now, that's not to say there isn't an issue here. But the issue isn't intentional sexism, it's boring cliche writing.

But the issue IS something that warrants some change: The industry shouldn't branch out to appease feminists. They should branch out to attract more customers. They've hit the cap on white male heterosexuals 18-35. It's time to maybe think about expanding their customer base instead of continually milking the rest of us for more and more cash.

 
Avatar 43041
 
If you don't like where gaming is heading, stop giving your money to the people who are taking it in that direction.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
23. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:38 yuastnav
 
ASeven wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 13:17:
Beamer wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 13:15:
Hey, look, white cisgendered males already acting as expected!

Hey, look, Beamer being an idiot. Again!

After having read the posts so far I am rather shocked to say that Beamer is correct in his observations.



[edit]
Shocked not in the sense that cisgendered males act as expected but by how much this applies to this discussion.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
22. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:34 Yaogun
 
Oh man you hit it right on the head! There used to be places a man could go. Gaming! Atheism! These were *our* clubs. Places where we were the default like we aren't anywhere else in life. We were the gatekeepers!

And look at them now. I share your pain, my fearless gender equality warrior bro. Look at them now! Now people have the nerve to TURN OFF COMMENTS ON A POST. That's pure CENSORSHIP! Why isn't everyone else angry about this?

At least we have each other. Those of us with thick skins who aren't professional victims need to take up arms and write long diatribes about these 'miserable sacks of shit' and bring up unrelated causes on web sites!
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
21. Re: Op Ed Apr 6, 2013, 15:31 netnerd85
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 6, 2013, 13:38:
I much prefer, rum, sodomy, and the lash.
Keep your rum and lash (not sure what that is TBH :|) but I'm all for sodomy - Vodka helps here!

*30 mins of politically incorrect comments that weren't published here*
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
60 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 ] Older >


footer

.. .. ..

Blue's News logo