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30. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 19, 2013, 07:36 InBlack
 
Bhruic wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 20:38:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 19:33:
I'm rarely arguing 100% in favor of the corporations. Typically I'm just explaining that they're not evil.

The average user here tends to be pretty smart, but there is usually a complete misunderstanding over why companies do things. I try to repeatedly point out I'm not telling them to accept things, just understand why they happen. They can still be angry, but be angry at the right thing.

Perhaps you think that's what you're doing. Perhaps that's what you are trying to do. Unfortunately, that's not what comes across.

Take the last good example - the Bungie thread. Bungie is treating PC gamers like - at best - second class citizens. Someone called them out on that fact. And you immediately leaped to their defense, and framed things on a monetary scale. What you don't seem to grasp is the irrelevancy of that position. Unless we are shareholders, very few of us care how much money a company makes (certainly we want good ones to stay in business, but how well off they are isn't a factor). So it doesn't matter to us one whit that the Halo franchise was financially profitable. So why did you feel the need to approach things from that perspective? Yes, if you want to argue what the prudent thing for Bungie to do is, then it would definitely be to go with what they know. But that's not what the majority of people here care about (I suspect). We care about what, if anything, Bungie is doing for us as PC gamers. If that turns out to be jack shit (and it is), then we aren't going to look at them well. And all your attempts to defend them over such things as financial issues just make you appear to be somewhat mindlessly pro-business.

This is very well said. I would like to extrapolate on the 'evil' part. When we say they (they == corporations) are evil, we dont mean the people who work there necessarily, most of the time its the system itself thats corrupt to that extreme. Short term gains are completely favored over long term, as a result customers are alienated, IPs are wrecked, and employees are cut. Evil is not evil, in the classical biblical sense here, i wouldnt even call it that, but its a good nice 'emotional' word for lack of a better one.

This is something that is endemic to the whole super global capitalist corporate structure, its almost like a disease. Except the people on top dont want it to get better because they cant overlook their own greed.
 
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29. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 19, 2013, 05:32 Julio
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 19:33:
I'm rarely arguing 100% in favor of the corporations. Typically I'm just explaining that they're not evil.

But they are evil.
 
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28. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 21:33 Bhruic
 
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 21:08:
But I generally don't being the subject up in the first place and I don't constantly go on about it (admittedly I have talked about it a lot recently).

I wouldn't put you in the same category as Beamer at all. Without you bringing it up, I wouldn't have pegged you as a "corporate defender" (using that tongue-in-cheek) at all.

That's a fair point about evil versus asshole, but some people take it further when they talk about being forced to buy some new version or some DLC - no one is forced, not even taking that somewhat figuratively. That's the sort of reality distortion I don't like.

Oh, certainly, I would never deny that there's a large amount of hyperbole on these forums.

Are you putting me and Beamer in the "believe [publishers] are always right" group? I'm certainly not and I'm pretty sure Beamer isn't either.

You, no. Beamer conditionally yes. And by that I mean that I don't think that's what he really thinks, but that's how his posts will come across. He's sort of like "Captain Publisher" - if there's a publisher in distress that needs help, he's on the scene to defend them. That's why you end up with people like Eirikrautha calling him out, simply because he does it so frequently you can identify one of his posts without needing to read the name.
 
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27. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 21:08 Quboid
 
I agree about the lack of no bias but that is separate. Suffice to say, I try to be balanced and look at things without bias but it's very complicated.

In your Apple metaphor, if a thread became about how innovative Apple is then yes, I'd argue the point. If a thread was about how cheap they are then yes, I'd argue the point. But I generally don't being the subject up in the first place and I don't constantly go on about it (admittedly I have talked about it a lot recently).

That's a fair point about evil versus asshole, but some people take it further when they talk about being forced to buy some new version or some DLC - no one is forced, not even taking that somewhat figuratively. That's the sort of reality distortion I don't like.

Are you putting me and Beamer in the "believe [publishers] are always right" group? I'm certainly not and I'm pretty sure Beamer isn't either.
 
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26. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 20:53 Bhruic
 
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 19:45:
Why do I do this? Well, you said it. Posts tend to be biased towards PC gaming and PC gamers. That's understandable, but it's still biased and I want to remind some people of reality - not pro-company bias, but no bias at all. That means considering things from the companies' point of view even if you don't agree.

I'd argue there is no such thing as no bias at all, but that's a separate issue. What I think both you and he are missing is that this is a site dedicated to PC gamers.

Imagine, for example, a site dedicated to Apple products. How welcome do you think it would be if in every thread discussing Apple products, there were always one or two people who showed up - to every thread - and constantly talked about how overpriced Apple products are, how they really lacked innovation, how bad their manufacturing facilities are in China, etc. Now certainly all of those positions can be argued for, probably successfully. But the rest of the people on a site dedicated to Apple products are almost certainly going to get sick of the people constantly feeling the need to come in and take that approach.

It's not an exact analogy, I grant, but it gets across the general feeling. Yes, we understand that game companies want to make money. Yes, we understand that consoles tend to ensure a greater profit. Yes, we understand that it's cheaper to port products across rather than spend extra money making a truly PC experience. We understand that companies generally make their decisions based on financial motives rather than personal ones. We get all that. But as PC gamers, all of those facts are pretty irrelevant. If a company takes shortcuts and puts out a substandard game on a PC, we are going to call them out for it. I, and I suspect most others around here, don't give a damn if it saved them money. And we don't care if a company was paid extra money to make their DLC exclusive to a specific console. I will consider a company that does that to be a greedy sellout.

There's nothing wrong with taking a look at things from a business perspective - the thread about Psychonauts 2 was a good example of it being useful. But while I wouldn't say I've noticed you doing so to any large degree, Beamer has taken defending corportate positions to an extreme.

For some, wallowing in the fantasy of evil publishers who hate PC gamers might be easy but it's just not real and therefore pointless. Ignorance is bliss, perhaps, but if we are ever going to change anything, we need to first know what we're trying to change.

That's the same strawman that Beamer put forward. No one thinks that publishers are evil. What a lot of people think is that some publishers are assholes. And as much as I wish that was a fantasy, unfortunately it's not.

I should point out that I'm definitely in the category of giving kudos when they are due. I'll defend decisions that EA makes, for example, when I think they've done the right thing. But neither people who assume they are always wrong, or people who believe they are always right are helping anything.
 
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25. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 20:38 Bhruic
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 19:33:
I'm rarely arguing 100% in favor of the corporations. Typically I'm just explaining that they're not evil.

The average user here tends to be pretty smart, but there is usually a complete misunderstanding over why companies do things. I try to repeatedly point out I'm not telling them to accept things, just understand why they happen. They can still be angry, but be angry at the right thing.

Perhaps you think that's what you're doing. Perhaps that's what you are trying to do. Unfortunately, that's not what comes across.

Take the last good example - the Bungie thread. Bungie is treating PC gamers like - at best - second class citizens. Someone called them out on that fact. And you immediately leaped to their defense, and framed things on a monetary scale. What you don't seem to grasp is the irrelevancy of that position. Unless we are shareholders, very few of us care how much money a company makes (certainly we want good ones to stay in business, but how well off they are isn't a factor). So it doesn't matter to us one whit that the Halo franchise was financially profitable. So why did you feel the need to approach things from that perspective? Yes, if you want to argue what the prudent thing for Bungie to do is, then it would definitely be to go with what they know. But that's not what the majority of people here care about (I suspect). We care about what, if anything, Bungie is doing for us as PC gamers. If that turns out to be jack shit (and it is), then we aren't going to look at them well. And all your attempts to defend them over such things as financial issues just make you appear to be somewhat mindlessly pro-business.
 
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24. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 19:45 Quboid
 
Bhruic wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 18:25:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:47:
I get why some here see me as an apologist, but it usually means they're not reading what I say closely. Maybe my arguments just don't translate to text. I just try to fight hyperbole more than anything. You can have rational discussions about how something sucks or why something sucks without launching into massive amounts of FUD. But I guess that's not how the internet works.

Oh, please. If there is any situation where one thing is good for consumers, and one thing is good for companies, you are always in here arguing on behalf of the companies. Every time. Maybe you just like to play devil's advocate, who knows? But this site is about consumers. It is about what we want from companies. So of course our posts are going to be pro-consumer. And as it's primarily a PC gamer site, of course our posts are going to be biased towards PC gaming.

You seem to have made it your personal mission to take the side of the companies in every debate. Sure, I suppose it's nice to have both sides represented, but don't try and act all innocent when you get called out on it.

What about me, would you say I do that? I'm not as prolific a poster as Beamer, but I typically agree with him (except that rubbish in his sig, nin's is way better) and I am often discussing the companies' side in threads.

Why do I do this? Well, you said it. Posts tend to be biased towards PC gaming and PC gamers. That's understandable, but it's still biased and I want to remind some people of reality - not pro-company bias, but no bias at all. That means considering things from the companies' point of view even if you don't agree.

I can't speak for Beamer, but for me being called out (in so much as I understand what you mean by that) is welcome and I certainly have no wish to look all innocent. It's much better for the debate than silly accusations of being a paid shill or the other symptoms of people who will only see one extreme versus the other.

It's not a personal mission for me, but I want discussions to be based in reality. For some, wallowing in the fantasy of evil publishers who hate PC gamers might be easy but it's just not real and therefore pointless. Ignorance is bliss, perhaps, but if we are ever going to change anything, we need to first know what we're trying to change.

In what way is what I do, or what Beamer does, a bad thing?

(Eirikrautha: easy. It's the answer to life the universe and everything!)

This comment was edited on Feb 18, 2013, 19:55.
 
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23. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 19:33 Beamer
 
Bhruic wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 18:25:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:47:
I get why some here see me as an apologist, but it usually means they're not reading what I say closely. Maybe my arguments just don't translate to text. I just try to fight hyperbole more than anything. You can have rational discussions about how something sucks or why something sucks without launching into massive amounts of FUD. But I guess that's not how the internet works.

Oh, please. If there is any situation where one thing is good for consumers, and one thing is good for companies, you are always in here arguing on behalf of the companies. Every time. Maybe you just like to play devil's advocate, who knows? But this site is about consumers. It is about what we want from companies. So of course our posts are going to be pro-consumer. And as it's primarily a PC gamer site, of course our posts are going to be biased towards PC gaming.

You seem to have made it your personal mission to take the side of the companies in every debate. Sure, I suppose it's nice to have both sides represented, but don't try and act all innocent when you get called out on it.

I'm rarely arguing 100% in favor of the corporations. Typically I'm just explaining that they're not evil.

The average user here tends to be pretty smart, but there is usually a complete misunderstanding over why companies do things. I try to repeatedly point out I'm not telling them to accept things, just understand why they happen. They can still be angry, but be angry at the right thing.
 
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22. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 18:25 Bhruic
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:47:
I get why some here see me as an apologist, but it usually means they're not reading what I say closely. Maybe my arguments just don't translate to text. I just try to fight hyperbole more than anything. You can have rational discussions about how something sucks or why something sucks without launching into massive amounts of FUD. But I guess that's not how the internet works.

Oh, please. If there is any situation where one thing is good for consumers, and one thing is good for companies, you are always in here arguing on behalf of the companies. Every time. Maybe you just like to play devil's advocate, who knows? But this site is about consumers. It is about what we want from companies. So of course our posts are going to be pro-consumer. And as it's primarily a PC gamer site, of course our posts are going to be biased towards PC gaming.

You seem to have made it your personal mission to take the side of the companies in every debate. Sure, I suppose it's nice to have both sides represented, but don't try and act all innocent when you get called out on it.
 
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21. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 16:51 Beamer
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 16:44:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

Honestly, though... you don't think it doesn't make perfect sense based on the direction modern software licenses have been moving? First, eschewing direct ownership and selling licenses. Then, time-limiting and site-locking (see the newest Windows license) the licenses, so that you are constantly paying for the software you used to pay once for and reuse on different computers. It's the logical progression.

The only issue here is timing. Microsoft is moving too fast (perhaps spooked by Apple's success with its closed software market)... but every move so far is perfectly logical, so long as you see software as a "service" and not a "product." That's what many have been warning about here on BN for a while.

Sometimes the slippery slope fallacy isn't a fallacy...
No, I don't think it makes sense.

Microsoft's bread and butter is enterprise. They're the ones that you nickle and dime, because they kind of need to do it.

Home users? Just be happy they're not pirating. Follow an Apple model - cheap, frequent updates. They seem moving that way for Windows. While I get that model doesn't work for Office, pushing them away makes no sense.

Home users are gravy for Windows and Office. Keep making it easier for them to stick with you legitimately.
 
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20. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 16:45 Eirikrautha
 
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 16:11:
Eirikrautha wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 16:06:
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:43:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

I've seen this attitude here so many times, if you're not completely against something (typically MS or EA) then you must be completely in favour of it. A couple of times in the last 24 hours I've seen Eirikrautha explicitly exhibit this, by making accusations against you which show she/he thinks in nothing but extremes.

Wow! You're a regular Kreskin! Tell me what number I'm thinking of right now...

42.

Whaaa...! How did you know!
 
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19. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 16:44 Eirikrautha
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

Honestly, though... you don't think it doesn't make perfect sense based on the direction modern software licenses have been moving? First, eschewing direct ownership and selling licenses. Then, time-limiting and site-locking (see the newest Windows license) the licenses, so that you are constantly paying for the software you used to pay once for and reuse on different computers. It's the logical progression.

The only issue here is timing. Microsoft is moving too fast (perhaps spooked by Apple's success with its closed software market)... but every move so far is perfectly logical, so long as you see software as a "service" and not a "product." That's what many have been warning about here on BN for a while.

Sometimes the slippery slope fallacy isn't a fallacy...
 
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18. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 16:11 Quboid
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 16:06:
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:43:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

I've seen this attitude here so many times, if you're not completely against something (typically MS or EA) then you must be completely in favour of it. A couple of times in the last 24 hours I've seen Eirikrautha explicitly exhibit this, by making accusations against you which show she/he thinks in nothing but extremes.

Wow! You're a regular Kreskin! Tell me what number I'm thinking of right now...

42.
 
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17. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 16:06 Eirikrautha
 
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:43:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

I've seen this attitude here so many times, if you're not completely against something (typically MS or EA) then you must be completely in favour of it. A couple of times in the last 24 hours I've seen Eirikrautha explicitly exhibit this, by making accusations against you which show she/he thinks in nothing but extremes.

Wow! You're a regular Kreskin! Tell me what number I'm thinking of right now...
 
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16. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 16:06 Quboid
 
I saw that post, it's very much fanboy behaviour; Apple vs Android pissing matches are the same. I suppose everything is, hell, politicians and political commentators certainly are. If you don't take one extreme or the other, your argument is somehow less valid, which seems very much back-to-front in my book. When did extremism become not just desired, but demanded?

I made a bit of an ass of myself on here a few months back after getting fed up with this and launching into a sarcasm and comic exaggeration laced tirade - against the wrong people. I still don't believe Popcap were as widely popular as people insisted but they clearly weren't as unpopular as I thought!

I took the criticism on board and I've been more careful with what I post since. Also, I learned not to use comic exaggeration to highlight hyperbole because it came across as hyperbole on my part; either it doesn't translate via text or doesn't register as satire to them.
 
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15. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 15:47 Beamer
 
Quboid wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:43:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

I've seen this attitude here so many times, if you're not completely against something (typically MS or EA) then you must be completely in favour of it. A couple of times in the last 24 hours I've seen Eirikrautha explicitly exhibit this, by making accusations against you which show she/he thinks in nothing but extremes.

I complained about it in another thread.
For how some view console users, they're very quick to act like diehard Xbox or PS fanboys that assume anyone saying anything not glowing in praise for their console of choice must be a huge fan of the other.

I get why some here see me as an apologist, but it usually means they're not reading what I say closely. Maybe my arguments just don't translate to text. I just try to fight hyperbole more than anything. You can have rational discussions about how something sucks or why something sucks without launching into massive amounts of FUD. But I guess that's not how the internet works.

Fortunately this board has tons of excellent posters, and even most of the ones that repeatedly launch into hyperbole have their strong posts, in many cases more often than not.
 
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14. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 15:43 Quboid
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 15:13:
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.

I've seen this attitude here so many times, if you're not completely against something (typically MS or EA) then you must be completely in favour of it. A couple of times in the last 24 hours I've seen Eirikrautha explicitly exhibit this, by making accusations against you which show she/he thinks in nothing but extremes.
 
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13. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 15:13 Beamer
 
I rarely apologize for companies. It's how it's viewed, but usually people are saying things like "they're trying to rape our unborn children!" and I try to explain how these decisions are made.

Rarely do people sit in a conference room and say "how can we fuck over our users?"

This, though, seems to be the result of just that.
 
-------------
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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12. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 15:03 Eirikrautha
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 12:51:
swedishfriend wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 12:11:
office 2013 will be locked to a single machine? I don't think that will hold up to any push back whatsoever. Have to wait for updates? so MS wants to create an extra threat vector? if half its users don't go for the 365 version are they still going to treat 2013 users as second class? these possible warnings about office 2013 are all based on the assumption that 95% of the users will switch to a subscription model... We want to make things worse for you but better for us so won't you help make that happen by believing our FUD?

Their pricing heavily pushes people towards the online version.
I have no clue why they'd also make policy go towards it, too. Seems... heavy handed, stupid, etc.

Stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. Really damn stupid.

Why is this stupid? It's the natural evolution of this business model. Once you have market dominance, lock the users into your products and monetize heavily. Count on inertia to prevent defections. It's intelligent business practice, and what any smart business would do to maximize its profits.</Beamer voice>

Actually, I agree with you. It IS stupid and heavy-handed. I assume they have some indications that this move will not change their business markets enough to cause mass defections to other software. I hope they're wrong. Every great defeat starts with a miscalculation on the side of the defeated.

Now... how did you get Beamer's password? He's gonna be pissed when he finds out you've been posting anti-corporate opinions under his alias...
 
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11. Re: Morning Tech Bits Feb 18, 2013, 13:08 DG
 
Panickd wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 11:25:
Beamer wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 11:00:
Julio wrote on Feb 18, 2013, 10:56:
Or you could just stick with open office and not be sorry at all!

Until you need an advanced feature or until you hit file incompatibilities because whatever partner/client you're working with is on Office and OpenOffice can either not open it or render it correctly.

I can honestly say this hasn't happened to me for several years. MS hasn't really changed their file format much since the last major revamp so OO and LibreOffice seem to be able to handle it just fine.

As for advanced features, the whole "office suite" paradigm hit it's wall back in 2010. Nothing of note has changed besides the aesthetics since then.

Formatting/presentation issues happen to me all the time, with either Open or Libre Office. I now PDF anything or keep it as an RTF and tidy it up at the office. Spreadsheets are worse, and it often takes more than a cursory glance to identify there is a problem.

Libre Office is perfectly fine for home use. It's not viable for many offices though, firstly because of the imperfect compatibility with the MS Office that contacts will be using and secondly because staff can be expected to have familiarity with MS Office while few will know anything else.

That's before we get into the complicated stuff like macros, ODBC etc.
 
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