Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:

Regularly scheduled events

Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50

Gamesbeat sat down with Gearbox Software's Randy Pitchford to discuss Borderlands 2, and say they plan to publish the entire conversation next week. In the meantime, they have posted a portion of the interview where they explore their agenda of getting the level cap raised, as it remains at 50 after three DLC releases, as opposed to the original Borderlands, which had two level cap increases. Randy admits they didn't plan very well for the cap raises in the original role-playing shooter, calling them mistakes. He then frankly admits they didn't really plan for an increased cap in the sequel either, which is why they are not repeating their mistake, and are still approaching how to raise the cap, saying: "Itís a big challenge. Itís a big undertaking. Itís not going to just turn on. Itís a thing we have to work ourselves through." Here's more, including an indication that console limitations may play a part in this as well:

Thatís by design. Some of those things start to become game-breaking. This has actually created a huge problem for us. We designed the skills really well this time, but we did, for better or for worse, make a lot of the decisions with the knowledge that there will be no more skill points available to put into any trees after you reach level 50. We knew the impossible configurations. Some of the design exploits that. Some of the impossible configurations, if they were possible, would break the game. Sometimes very literally. ďOh, thatís gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.Ē

View
30 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 ] Older >

30. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 10, 2013, 06:56 Longjocks
 
I just don't see a number next to my character's name as anything meaningful enough to make a difference to how I play the game. I'm enjoying BL2 for the gameplay, the experimentation with skills, the humour and good times with friends in co-op. If I want a feeling of progression re skills and XP I just start a new character. Getting a character to level 50 is a nice little goal to tack onto the experience but I just don't care. With around 100 hours spent in the game all up, with many more to come, I don't think raising the cap to [insert arbitrary number] is going make a difference to my VFM.

This isn't a stand to say that others should feel this way, it's just my perspective and I've yet to see an argument that might sway me to thinking it matters or it should be changed.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
29. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 21:41 Creston
 
For all the talk about how allowing people to unlock every skill just would mean everyone has the same build, it's not as if there's a ton of variety in builds out there anyway. With your 45 points, you can buy just about every useful skill for a class, and ignore the shitty ones. So everyone still walks around with the same skills, it's just how you utilize them (and with what weapon) that makes the difference.

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
28. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 18:15 eRe4s3r
 
No... having no level cap in your design document is actually the BETTER system because that would require you to think of a leveling curve and skill system that can HANDLE it.

Not doing this, means you are stuck with whatever level you designed your entire game around. Worse, if you designed your entire game around level progression of some kind (so your game is only balanced when a player sticks EXACTLY to that curve).

This is why Gearbox are bad game designers. This is something you think about BEFORE MAKING THE GAME. And they designed the game so that the level can't be extended. They killed their game by design. And this is why I regretted buying the BL2 season pass. It offers nothing of value (well, for me). And I have the looming feeling DLC4 won't deliver either.
 
Avatar 54727
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
27. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 18:15 Beamer
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 18:05:
None of the Borderlands 2 DLC's are "pretty good" imo. If you played one character to 50 you have seen everything. The pirate DLC has some fancy bosses and -1- extremely nice area but that is it. The other DLC is completely forgettable (Hunter) or absolutely terrible (Torque..) unless you like torque weapons.

If you already reached level 50, then the DLC besides being totally forgettable is also totally useless since you don't level up there. And some content (especially the hunter dlc) is already very "late-game" leveled by design. For a new character going there essentially means making the main quest boring as hell. Since you out-level everything if you complete 1 DLC area within the flow of the main-quest (ie, when you reach the level requirements)

This is actually the most deadly of all the flaws. If you play the DLC when you reach the "optimal" level to play it's first quest then you will out level the main quest areas. They implemented it that stupidly that it doesn't even level to you. Unless you play the new-game+ mode but then .. well.. it's more of the same.

I bought the Season Pass after the third DLC release. My buddy and I were still playing, so it made sense to extend it, and the pass was basically buy 3 get 1 free.

I agree, though. The new weapons were kind of fun, and Mr. Torgue kills me, but overall? The levels were just too big, too empty, and had fast travel and vehicle kiosks too far away. Too often my car would get destroyed and I'd have a 3-5 minute run through nothing to get a new one.

Yeah, I know, some people think running through nothing is tons of fun, but not in this game.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
26. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 18:05 eRe4s3r
 
None of the Borderlands 2 DLC's are "pretty good" imo. If you played one character to 50 you have seen everything. The pirate DLC has some fancy bosses and -1- extremely nice area but that is it. The other DLC is completely forgettable (Hunter) or absolutely terrible (Torque..) unless you like torque weapons.

If you already reached level 50, then the DLC besides being totally forgettable is also totally useless since you don't level up there. And some content (especially the hunter dlc) is already very "late-game" leveled by design. For a new character going there essentially means making the main quest boring as hell. Since you out-level everything if you complete 1 DLC area within the flow of the main-quest (ie, when you reach the level requirements)

This is actually the most deadly of all the flaws. If you play the DLC when you reach the "optimal" level to play it's first quest then you will out level the main quest areas. They implemented it that stupidly that it doesn't even level to you. Unless you play the new-game+ mode but then .. well.. it's more of the same.
 
Avatar 54727
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
25. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 17:38 Mad Max RW
 
The Borderlands 2 DLC, much like the previous game, is a mixed bag. But unlike Borderlands 1, all of them suffer from having gigantic empty areas requiring a long hike to the next place of interest. The pirate DLC is good and has some of the nicest locations such as the crystal caves and challenging boss fights. However, the Sir Hammerlock DLC is junk and looks like something one person whipped up in a week. It's the perfect example to level designers why bigger does not necessarily mean better.

That said, if you enjoyed Borderlands 1 I recommend getting the inevitable GOTY of 2 on sale. It's fun and way more polished.
 
Avatar 15920
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
24. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 16:41 Verno
 
Is there a consensus on the "bad" Borderlands 2 DLCs or are they all pretty good? I've got a pretty limited amount of playtime coming up so I wanted to knock some of them out.  
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Fire Emblem, Diablo 3, Bravely Default
Watching: The Machine, After the Dark, Devils Due
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
23. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 16:05 Bhruic
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 11:26:
tl;dr, not having a level cap is stupid.
So Axton should be able to throw two turrets that fire two sets of rockets and two guns each, each creating a nuke and each having a barrier?

That's stupid. RPGs aren't about making you a god (well, some are), they're about making you make choices and specialize.

Not planning properly to allow for level cap increases is more stupid. It's not like they didn't know they did that, and what went wrong in the first game. Constantly putting out DLC that adds content (and therefore XP) but not increasing the level cap just means you spend even more time at the cap with nothing new to look forward to as you play. And that's just bad game design.

There's actually a middle ground between "no level cap" and "unchanging level cap".
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
22. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 15:13 John
 
Well all I have to say is that I stopped playing soon after I reached lvl 50 because I didn't feel like continuing without gaining more experience or starting another character. If the next DLC is really good I may try it, but I don't like being limited especially after 3 DLCs.  
This space is available for rent
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
21. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 12:14 MajorD
 
ItBurn wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 09:56:
Console hardware limiting game content and gameplay, impossible! It's a conspiracy made by people who think that only graphics are important.

//Grin...

It's good to finally have a real dev make a real comment on that.

 
Avatar 55780
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
20. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 12:05 Alamar
 
ItBurn wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 10:41:
It's a failure of design if when you reach the cap you have "all skills" and are just like every other character. You plan in advance a system that works. A good excuse may be lack of time/funding, but again, planning.

I agree, but I see 'all skills' and 'just like every other character' as different things...

But let me elaborate... If you can unlock all skills by/at max level, but can't use them all in your build, you're not just like every other character... Except... The Internet... Popular builds are posted, and a good percentage of players use them, so you could argue that unlocking skills (instead of following a skill path and having all skills out of that path locked, always) means that everyone ends up the same, so 'all skills' and 'just like...' are the same...

Except that even if skills are locked in when you choose them, people research builds earlier and all end up the same anyways, so it's kind of moot : )

I'm personally (hobby dev) using a design where you can unlock stuff as you level, and then choose your focus (let's say, offense vs defense vs movement), and that lets you 'slot' a given number of skills from each focus... Letting you swap your focus (at your base) in between 'adventures' let's you not be gimped (as badly)... But in the end, some people just want to be locked in, and want to have to make a new character. Others want to be locked in, but know beforehand (again making locking moot)... And hopefully many just want to build a new character based on a new item/skill found (For example, D2's low-mid level unique items).

Anyhow, I'm ranting, so I'm done ; )

-Alamar
 
Avatar 22996
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
19. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:41 necrosis
 
For anyone who plays FFXI this sounds familiar.

SE always cried "PS2 limitations" when users asked for more inventory space. Something that did not limit PC users which 90% of the people played on by that point.

Big shock! They found some way to give us more space at a later time after having to buy a $10 keybob.

This comment was edited on Feb 8, 2013, 11:53.
 
Avatar 16007
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
18. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:40 budrojr
 
I guess since you couldn't be concerned with reading anything, you missed the part about "So what if my level 215 isn't significantly more powerful than your level 50 because all real rewards for leveling slow down or stop completely at level 50. It's just nice to be able to show off my time investment."

This is kinda why the tl;dr crowd is not one I like to pander to. They just don't seem to have any time to think for themselves, investigate the reasons behind things, and only concern themselves with sensationalist headlines.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
17. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:26 Beamer
 
budrojr wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 11:23:
For the tl;dr crowd I will sum up the wall-o-text below: Level caps suck and shouldn't be in RPGs at all, and inventory/bank caps suck even more in a game where the entire post-game draw is farming for loot.

When I play RPG-like games, I hate having a level cap at all. If I want to keep playing the game, I like it to reflect that fact to other people I play with. So what if my level 215 isn't significantly more powerful than your level 50 because all real rewards for leveling slow down or stop completely at level 50. It's just nice to be able to show off my time investment. And no, the badass ranks don't really do that all that well since you can easily add a lot of rank by just making another character.

What I can't stand is that after all the whining and complaining about inventory space and bank space in the original borderlands, why they not only didn't drastically increase the inventory/bank size in borderlands 2, but in fact halved it. And there are WAY more items in BL2 worth keeping and playing around with than there were in BL1.

And why is the bank character specific? We are all wanting to trade items between toons, so why the restriction? Games don't need realism on all levels. It's a game. Let me carry a crapload of items if I want, let me store a crapload of items if I want, and don't restrict me from trading them EASILY in MASS QUANTITIES between toons. It's dumb. And they actually regressed in this area from BL1 to BL2.

And why the caps on eridium/seraph crystals/torgue tokens? And money is STILL freaking useless overall, especially since the slot machines spit out nothing but trash.

Serious dev team. You didn't plan for stuff to happen in BL1 because you didn't know what people would like and wouldn't like. That is understandable. In BL2 you absolutely did know what people wanted and still just didn't deliver. This leads me to believe you didn't care about making the most enjoyable player experience you could. Instead you were focused on the money. Give people what they want and the money will come. You are not making a case for me to trust you for a 3rd installment of your IP.

tl;dr, not having a level cap is stupid.
So Axton should be able to throw two turrets that fire two sets of rockets and two guns each, each creating a nuke and each having a barrier?

That's stupid. RPGs aren't about making you a god (well, some are), they're about making you make choices and specialize.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
16. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:25 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 11:18:
Beamer wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 10:02:
it sounds like "blow memory" isn't "take a whole lot of it" but "eat it up like a memory leak,

I don't think it's a memory leak issue, as they could simply fix that. It's probably some combo where multi-shot combines with dual-fire combines with bore combines with a Conference Call, and the game runs out of memory to calculate the trajectory, hitscan and damage of all the projectiles.

So likely with 4GB you'd be fine, but since the decrepit shitty consoles only have half a Gig, they're holding stuff back.

I've fucked around with two characters (Commando, Siren) with every skill unlocked and never ran into any kind of issues, I should try it with the other two as well, see what happens. Offhand, thinking of the skill trees, it's more likely to be an issue for Zero or salvador anyway.

Creston


What I mean by memory leak is that, under the right circumstances, it will eat up an enormous amount. As you said, with the Conference Call.

But if it can run out of memory on the Xbox then, under the right circumstances, it can probably run out of an infinite amount of memory. Within seconds. All depends on what we're talking. Clearly it isn't just the Conference Call, even with Gauge's Close Enough, because that's in the game now (though hitting BNK3R with the Conference Call with Bore can sometimes drag the game down on my Xbox for a second or two as it calculates tens of millions of damage points.)
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
15. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:23 budrojr
 
For the tl;dr crowd I will sum up the wall-o-text below: Level caps suck and shouldn't be in RPGs at all, and inventory/bank caps suck even more in a game where the entire post-game draw is farming for loot.

When I play RPG-like games, I hate having a level cap at all. If I want to keep playing the game, I like it to reflect that fact to other people I play with. So what if my level 215 isn't significantly more powerful than your level 50 because all real rewards for leveling slow down or stop completely at level 50. It's just nice to be able to show off my time investment. And no, the badass ranks don't really do that all that well since you can easily add a lot of rank by just making another character.

What I can't stand is that after all the whining and complaining about inventory space and bank space in the original borderlands, why they not only didn't drastically increase the inventory/bank size in borderlands 2, but in fact halved it. And there are WAY more items in BL2 worth keeping and playing around with than there were in BL1.

And why is the bank character specific? We are all wanting to trade items between toons, so why the restriction? Games don't need realism on all levels. It's a game. Let me carry a crapload of items if I want, let me store a crapload of items if I want, and don't restrict me from trading them EASILY in MASS QUANTITIES between toons. It's dumb. And they actually regressed in this area from BL1 to BL2.

And why the caps on eridium/seraph crystals/torgue tokens? And money is STILL freaking useless overall, especially since the slot machines spit out nothing but trash.

Serious dev team. You didn't plan for stuff to happen in BL1 because you didn't know what people would like and wouldn't like. That is understandable. In BL2 you absolutely did know what people wanted and still just didn't deliver. This leads me to believe you didn't care about making the most enjoyable player experience you could. Instead you were focused on the money. Give people what they want and the money will come. You are not making a case for me to trust you for a 3rd installment of your IP.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
14. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:18 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 10:02:
it sounds like "blow memory" isn't "take a whole lot of it" but "eat it up like a memory leak,

I don't think it's a memory leak issue, as they could simply fix that. It's probably some combo where multi-shot combines with dual-fire combines with bore combines with a Conference Call, and the game runs out of memory to calculate the trajectory, hitscan and damage of all the projectiles.

So likely with 4GB you'd be fine, but since the decrepit shitty consoles only have half a Gig, they're holding stuff back.

I've fucked around with two characters (Commando, Siren) with every skill unlocked and never ran into any kind of issues, I should try it with the other two as well, see what happens. Offhand, thinking of the skill trees, it's more likely to be an issue for Zero or salvador anyway.

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
13. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:16 theyarecomingforyou
 
ItBurn wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 10:41:
It's a failure of design if when you reach the cap you have "all skills" and are just like every other character.
Exactly. What's the point in levelling up if by the time you get to max level your character is identical to everybody else's? It's better to force people to choose how to build their character, especially as you can reset skill points for respecs.
 
Avatar 22891
 
SteamID: theyarecomingforyou
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
12. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 11:14 Creston
 
ďOh, thatís gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.Ē

That sounds like solid design there...

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
11. Re: Why Borderlands 2 Level Cap is Still 50 Feb 8, 2013, 10:53 Redmask
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 8, 2013, 10:46:
Consoles are low on memory these days, true. They also have far less memory overhead.

Hell, FireFox right now is taking up 76% of my RAM (I maybe should close some tabs.) Consoles don't have issues like that.


That's not how memory management works. Overhead is not an issue with PCs for the most part and if the operating system needed that ram it would page out or take it. PC operating systems also aggressively cache and make effective use of memory. The console doesn't have it to offer in the first place. Working within memory constraints was one of the most annoying parts of development.
 
Avatar 57682
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
30 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 ] Older >


footer

.. .. ..

Blue's News logo