However, I don’t think that a good business case can be made for officially supporting Linux for mainstream games today, and Zenimax doesn’t have any policy of “unofficial binaries” like Id used to have. I have argued for their value (mostly in the context of experimental Windows features, but Linux would also benefit), but my forceful internal pushes have been for the continuation of Id Software’s open source code releases, which I feel have broader benefits than unsupported Linux binaries.
I can’t speak for the executives at Zenimax, but they don’t even publish Mac titles (they partner with Aspyr), so I would be stunned if they showed an interest in officially publishing and supporting a Linux title. A port could be up and running in a week or two, but there is so much work to do beyond that for official support. The conventional wisdom is that native Linux games are not a good market. Id Software tested the conventional wisdom twice, with Quake Arena and Quake Live. The conventional wisdom proved correct. Arguments can be made that neither one was an optimal test case, but they were honest tries.
UConnBBall wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 18:53:
So developing games OS agnostic is bad? Who cares what OS you use (Well I do but not the point) Why develope games that are Windows Dependent.
Use OpenGL and make things cross-platform period.
I get the feeling Zenimax is strangling id software. It's evident from the consolization of Rage.
Ozmodan wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 09:39:
People are just whining because they have to buy windows.
Panickd wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 13:38:
I'm not sure John Carmack ever claimed to be passionate about gaming. He's passionate about programming and passionate about problem solving through programming. The fact that he came into programming when most of the big challenges lay in computer graphics and, by proxy, games was just pure chance.
And I'm not really sure why people are hating on him so much. Unless he ran over your dog with his Ferrari or banged your wife he doesn't owe you anything. If you're upset because people still listen when he talks that's really the fault of the people doing the listening, not his.
Cutter wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 12:54:netnerd85 wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 10:59:Cutter wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 09:57:Follow his tweets, read his articles, watch his interviews and you may learn something about the man rather than selected snippets and comments by gamers. He is a passionate programmer with an interest in other things. You have other hobbies right?
Why does Carmack even bother staying in gaming? He clearly doesn't need the dough. And whatever passion he had for it seems to have evaporated long ago. It's more like just doing it because it's routine. He only seems to be stoked about space related stuff so why doesn't he focus on that?
Passionate programmer for what? Games? Not in a long time. Besides he was a technical savant more interested in resolving programming problems than the games themselves. I've never considered a Carmack a gamer by any stretch.
Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 13:10:
Yeah, like I said in my second paragraph, it isn't time or resource intensive, just requires hiring some Linux people.
Also, it isn't as easy as just hitting "deploy." Sorry, doesn't work like that. Sure, if you choose to go with UE3 or CryEngine it's close, but id, of course, isn't doing that. So they need to hire some Linux people. And many other companies don't do that. So they'd need to hire some Linux people. And even those using UE3 often modify the code. So they'd need to hire some Linux people.
Like you said, what needs to be done is to have engine developers create Linux back ends. Some people need to be hired to do that.
I never said they need to hire game developers, I said game programmers. As in, they need programmers that understand both Linux and game engines.
headkase wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:37:Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:04:
Valve's problem is going to be getting anyone to actually make Linux games. Like you said, "If they... get some large software developers aboard...." that's a big if. It's a risk. They need to hire Linux game programmers, something not really plentiful now. It's a big leap. Some will stick a toe in the waters, but don't expect anyone committing capital to jump in the deep end before anything is proven.
And, if it becomes proven, it isn't hard for others to adapt to it. Actually kicking out the product for Linux isn't really time or resource intensive, but it does require hiring some new people.
Having every developer writing for Linux is stupid. What needs to be done is that the engine developers write Linux-back-ends. When you develop your game for CryEngine 3 you don't say "oh my gosh! I have to write to the Xbox 360, PS3, and PC API!" No, shit. With CryEngine 3 you press the "deploy" button and the code needed at the lower levels - stuff dealing with operating systems and graphics and audio API's - is abstracted away from your content. If a engine developer makes an OpenGL back-end the developer of a game doesn't have to give two shits about it. They just press "deploy." Sorry, they have to press deploy 4 times: once each for Xbox 360, PS3, PC, and Linux. A properly written game engine will abstract away the lower level details and make it so a game developer doesn't have to give a single flying fuck about them.
headkase wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 12:19:yuastnav wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:46:
Wouldn't that make the code extremely inefficient?
No. A back-end is a logical unit of code. For each function to be provided you use one back-end per system. A PS3 environment will use the PS3 back-end and so on. There is no intermingling of code which means that on the target system there will only be the code needed for that system. Since code is not intermingled there is no performance penalty. You don't have one lego-piece that does it all but instead have a few different flavors of the same piece that you can use interchangeably.
Game engines are the proper place to put the different back-ends. With the number one reason being that if the support is in the engine then it massively reduces the duplication of effort between all the content developers who license that engine. For the longest time game engines have been tightly-coupled to the environment they ran in. Say an older engine would only run on Windows. Within the last few years however that coupling is being removed. Game developers do not write their code with a specific operating system in mind but instead write their code for a specific engine in mind. The workflow is: Content -> Engine -> Operating System. That is the "abstraction", the engine sits between the Operating System and the Content. The engine developers implement a variety of back-ends - the parts that touch the operating system - and then game developers are free to target whichever they choose. And because the game engine abstracts the operating system details then a game developer, in a proper case, would have to make exactly zero changes to their content when targeting a different system. The engine would do that.
Viable back-ends are obviously the consoles and Windows and Mac PCs. An engine developer however would only have to write a Linux back-end once and then maintain it like the other back-ends. Just by having that Linux back-end a game developer could then reap an additional 1% of sales right now without modifying any of their content to enable that. When Valve comes out with their mythical box expect the Source engine to have a back-end, obviously, for that and Source content - again in the ideal case - won't have to be modified at all to leverage the engine no matter the back-end.
Optional nickname wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 12:41:
I'm going to say something that will silence the sharks reading my post:
John, you reading this?
you need to , damn I wish I could patent this idea..
but, you need to make arcades make a comeback to the scene.
What I'm saying is this: Asia seems to have unlimited supply of raw materials because they are DUMPING electronic shit onto the masses, risking selling only 20% of their production, while the other 80% gets into a landfill, so clearly that is not an issue to get hardware out to us.
What we need is dedicated ROM to dedicated games. Let the wave recommence. It;s time to bring out the next gen Arcades, where one game, a great game! a John Carmack game! is to be written to his own custom made hardware,
Fuck Sony, Fuck Nintendo, and Fuck Microsoft, get your own hardware OS!
You have trillions of dollars of cash pouring in, whereas kickstarter is merely a gratuity (tip) to this available money that the gaming industry now has.
Stop your BICKERING and BRING US GOOD GAMES ONCE AGAIN.
netnerd85 wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 10:59:Cutter wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 09:57:Follow his tweets, read his articles, watch his interviews and you may learn something about the man rather than selected snippets and comments by gamers. He is a passionate programmer with an interest in other things. You have other hobbies right?
Why does Carmack even bother staying in gaming? He clearly doesn't need the dough. And whatever passion he had for it seems to have evaporated long ago. It's more like just doing it because it's routine. He only seems to be stoked about space related stuff so why doesn't he focus on that?
Optional nickname wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 12:41:
I'm going to say something that will silence the sharks reading my post:
John, you reading this?
you need to , damn I wish I could patent this idea..
but, you need to make arcades make a comeback to the scene.
What I'm saying is this: Asia seems to have unlimited supply of raw materials because they are DUMPING electronic shit onto the masses, risking selling only 20% of their production, while the other 80% gets into a landfill, so clearly that is not an issue to get hardware out to us.
What we need is dedicated ROM to dedicated games. Let the wave recommence. It;s time to bring out the next gen Arcades, where one game, a great game! a John Carmack game! is to be written to his own custom made hardware,
Fuck Sony, Fuck Nintendo, and Fuck Microsoft, get your own hardware OS!
You have trillions of dollars of cash pouring in, whereas kickstarter is merely a gratuity (tip) to this available money that the gaming industry now has.
Stop your BICKERING and BRING US GOOD GAMES ONCE AGAIN.
yuastnav wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:46:
Wouldn't that make the code extremely inefficient?
|RaptoR| wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:18:
[...]
Quake, Quake 2, and Quake 3 had native linux binaries, but it's cool to focus on a browser-based version of Quake 3 to drive home your (invalid) point
Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:23:
Quake Live isn't even browser based. yuastnav is either misunderstanding the game or what "browser based" means.
headkase wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:37:
[...]
Having every developer writing for Linux is stupid. What needs to be done is that the engine developers write Linux-back-ends. When you develop your game for CryEngine 3 you don't say "oh my gosh! I have to write to the Xbox 360, PS3, and PC API!" No, shit. With CryEngine 3 you press the "deploy" button and the code needed at the lower levels - stuff dealing with operating systems and graphics and audio API's - is abstracted away from your content. If a engine developer makes an OpenGL back-end the developer of a game doesn't have to give two shits about it. They just press "deploy." Sorry, they have to press deploy 4 times: once each for Xbox 360, PS3, PC, and Linux. A properly written game engine will abstract away the lower level details and make it so a game developer doesn't have to give a single flying fuck about them.
Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2013, 11:04:
Valve's problem is going to be getting anyone to actually make Linux games. Like you said, "If they... get some large software developers aboard...." that's a big if. It's a risk. They need to hire Linux game programmers, something not really plentiful now. It's a big leap. Some will stick a toe in the waters, but don't expect anyone committing capital to jump in the deep end before anything is proven.
And, if it becomes proven, it isn't hard for others to adapt to it. Actually kicking out the product for Linux isn't really time or resource intensive, but it does require hiring some new people.