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Crysis 3 Crisis Averted

The Terms of Service for the new Crysis 3 open beta includes language about banning players for not reporting bugs, recalling the recently quelled controversy over the SimCity beta ToS threating a mab from all EA games for failure to report bugs. This new End-User License Agreement issue apparently has the same resolution as the previous one, as games.on.net notes a tweet explaining: "We did - it was baked into the Beta before we realized it had the 'Bug Ban' clause. We aren't enforcing that." They also link a follow-up tweet saying: "We'll be releasing a blog post about that soon, but for now rest assured we aren't banning players for finding bugs." So we now know why EULAs and ToSes are so lengthy: Even the people making the games can't be bothered to read the crap they let their lawyers stuff into them.

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19. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 13:35 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 10:56:
dj LiTh wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:17:
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?

Basically. "Oh, don't worry! We'll never enforce it. Trust us!"

Of course, this is the same company that said "Oh, don't worry. We'll never take away your access to your games for being banned from our forums! That's just broad language in our ToS!" and then did EXACTLY that to multiple users.

Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:46:
but it's tiresome to hear "OMG THEY WANT TO BONE US IN THE BUTT!" when no one ever actually planned on doing that and the people who would be responsible for doing such boning have no clue the language is even in there.

That would be far more believable had EA in fact not already done this exact thing, and had they not taken months to fix the issue even after the "media" excoriated them for it.

Creston

But EA didn't ban anyone, did they?

It's lawyers being lawyers. Nothing more. Again, calling it stupid and complaining until it gets changed is fine, but people refusing to play something free for the off chance that they'd get banned because they saw a glitch is asinine.

Even if you don't understand the lawyer aspect, you have to acknowledge that every single person reporting every single bug would be an absolute nightmare for the team of people going through all the bug reports.
 
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18. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 13:33 Verno
 
People who get worked up over EULAs need to calm the fuck down.

I disagree, I think getting "worked the fuck up" over these things is what gets them changed quickly. If you want sit around and be passive about it thats your right but I'll pipe up whenever I see obvious bullshit, particularly when its inserted into what could be a legally binding contract. My approach doesn't interfere with yours so the complaint makes no sense, quite the opposite you might even benefit from it.
 
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17. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 13:33 Beamer
 
nin wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 11:50:
Creston wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 10:56:
dj LiTh wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:17:
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?

Basically. "Oh, don't worry! We'll never enforce it. Trust us!"

Of course, this is the same company that said "Oh, don't worry. We'll never take away your access to your games for being banned from our forums! That's just broad language in our ToS!" and then did EXACTLY that to multiple users.

Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:46:
but it's tiresome to hear "OMG THEY WANT TO BONE US IN THE BUTT!" when no one ever actually planned on doing that and the people who would be responsible for doing such boning have no clue the language is even in there.

That would be far more believable had EA in fact not already done this exact thing, and had they not taken months to fix the issue even after the "media" excoriated them for it.

Creston


Amazes me people will defend this shit - "Guys! I'm sure they won't lock people out (like they did yesterday)."



I didn't defend it. I said we're totally right to kick and scream.

On this board I often explain how things happen and it gets viewed as defending. Again, I said we're totally right to fight this and call it out - just know why it happens and why it will keep happening.
 
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16. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 13:30 NKD
 
People who get worked up over EULAs need to calm the fuck down. Like Beamer said, EULAs are the domain of lawyers, written by lawyers, FOR lawyers. It says "End User" but they don't care if we read it, and they don't expect us to read it.

When it comes to bannination and other types of rule enforcement, these guys always have an entirely different internal document typically written by the head of the community team that outlines rules and punishments.

And they don't refer back to the EULA in writing these, because they don't want to try and parse that bullshit either. They refer back to some template they used before, or someone elses set of rules.
 
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15. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 13:27 Tumbler
 
It's started to feel like all these shenanigans around Sim City and now crysis 3 are just an excuse to let people know about these games. Like some sort of backwards marketing attempt. If people get all up in arms about it I guess that would be a good sign as that means a lot of people want to buy it?

Hard for me to believe either one of these games is as popular as these silly issues make them appear.

 
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14. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 12:49 AngelicPenguin
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 10:11:

Read my next post - these things aren't an accident and no one deserves "blame." And it isn't the job of the game designer to read the EULA. It would be nice if he did, but he has an entire legal team, who has an entire outside counsel team, dedicated to making these decisions. Even if he knows about these things he often can't fight them because:
a) it isn't his job to
b) it isn't his ass on the line if they get sued

The EULA has one purpose: to prevent the company from being sued. The counsel mostly has the same purpose. So EULAs are created by counsel to cover as much ass as possible. They overreach. They always overreach.

But the guy who is actually enforcing the EULA has no clue that it overreaches. He runs things the way he feels they should be run. He's not a jackass, and he'd never ban someone for not reporting a bug. Most people don't report bugs, and fuck, most people only find incredibly obvious bugs and you don't want them reporting it because 500 people already have.

Again, this does not mean people shouldn't complain and fight it, but just know it will always happen. The lawyers are paid exclusively to prevent the company from liability. The only way to do that is to overreach, because it becomes a cat-and-mouse game and some jackass will always find some jackass reason to sue, ruining it for everyone.

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13. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 11:50 nin
 
Creston wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 10:56:
dj LiTh wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:17:
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?

Basically. "Oh, don't worry! We'll never enforce it. Trust us!"

Of course, this is the same company that said "Oh, don't worry. We'll never take away your access to your games for being banned from our forums! That's just broad language in our ToS!" and then did EXACTLY that to multiple users.

Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:46:
but it's tiresome to hear "OMG THEY WANT TO BONE US IN THE BUTT!" when no one ever actually planned on doing that and the people who would be responsible for doing such boning have no clue the language is even in there.

That would be far more believable had EA in fact not already done this exact thing, and had they not taken months to fix the issue even after the "media" excoriated them for it.

Creston


Amazes me people will defend this shit - "Guys! I'm sure they won't lock people out (like they did yesterday)."


 
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12. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 11:12 Verno
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 10:17:
So much easier just to hate EA though right? Guess we have to add Crytek to the list of evil consumer hating dev/publishers now.

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11. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 10:56 Creston
 
dj LiTh wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:17:
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?

Basically. "Oh, don't worry! We'll never enforce it. Trust us!"

Of course, this is the same company that said "Oh, don't worry. We'll never take away your access to your games for being banned from our forums! That's just broad language in our ToS!" and then did EXACTLY that to multiple users.

Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:46:
but it's tiresome to hear "OMG THEY WANT TO BONE US IN THE BUTT!" when no one ever actually planned on doing that and the people who would be responsible for doing such boning have no clue the language is even in there.

That would be far more believable had EA in fact not already done this exact thing, and had they not taken months to fix the issue even after the "media" excoriated them for it.

Creston
 
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10. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 10:45 InBlack
 
Crytek was always on my most hated list. For a number of reasons but mostly its that asshat Yerli and his stupid idiotic statements that did it for me.

Like: "We will never make another PC exclusive game again...." "PC Gamers are Pirates...." etc. etc...
 
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9. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 10:17 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:42:
nin wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:00:
So we now know why EULAs and ToSes are so lengthy: Even the people making the games can't be bothered to read the crap they let their lawyers stuff into them.

Win!


And this is exactly what I said about SimCity.

So much easier just to hate EA though right? Guess we have to add Crytek to the list of evil consumer hating dev/publishers now.
 
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8. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 10:15 Kajetan
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:46:
Because, from their perspective, it's better to ask for too much in the ToS and be forced to cut it than to ask for too little and either give up something critical or get sued for doing something necessary.
Sure, i am with you on this. On a theoretical basis

But ... a legal department running wild and NOT discussing ToS or EULAs with other departments which can give advice on how to make the EULAs content for a product they designed? Sadly, it's standard in many companies. Legal has free reign. Mostly, and this is the real sad part, mostly because they have detailled knowledge of all the fuckups the executives have done. Because they were the ones who fixed them. They are the ones who cover up shady business deals or simple tax fraud here and there. So, mostly they can do whatever they like and face no consequences for the fuckups THEY do to other departments.

Do i hate laywers? No. Not all of them. Not in general. But i hate selfrighteous jerks!
 
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7. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 10:11 Beamer
 
InBlack wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:53:
Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:42:
nin wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:00:
So we now know why EULAs and ToSes are so lengthy: Even the people making the games can't be bothered to read the crap they let their lawyers stuff into them.

Win!


And this is exactly what I said about SimCity.

That doesnt excuse anything, or anybody. Ignorance is equivalent to negligence. If you cant even be bothered to read your own damn EULA for a product you are MAKING then you sir deserve any and ALL blame.

Passing the buck is all the rage in corporate and financial circles these days, but that doesnt mean its excusable.

Read my next post - these things aren't an accident and no one deserves "blame." And it isn't the job of the game designer to read the EULA. It would be nice if he did, but he has an entire legal team, who has an entire outside counsel team, dedicated to making these decisions. Even if he knows about these things he often can't fight them because:
a) it isn't his job to
b) it isn't his ass on the line if they get sued

The EULA has one purpose: to prevent the company from being sued. The counsel mostly has the same purpose. So EULAs are created by counsel to cover as much ass as possible. They overreach. They always overreach.

But the guy who is actually enforcing the EULA has no clue that it overreaches. He runs things the way he feels they should be run. He's not a jackass, and he'd never ban someone for not reporting a bug. Most people don't report bugs, and fuck, most people only find incredibly obvious bugs and you don't want them reporting it because 500 people already have.

Again, this does not mean people shouldn't complain and fight it, but just know it will always happen. The lawyers are paid exclusively to prevent the company from liability. The only way to do that is to overreach, because it becomes a cat-and-mouse game and some jackass will always find some jackass reason to sue, ruining it for everyone.
 
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6. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 09:53 InBlack
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:42:
nin wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:00:
So we now know why EULAs and ToSes are so lengthy: Even the people making the games can't be bothered to read the crap they let their lawyers stuff into them.

Win!


And this is exactly what I said about SimCity.

That doesnt excuse anything, or anybody. Ignorance is equivalent to negligence. If you cant even be bothered to read your own damn EULA for a product you are MAKING then you sir deserve any and ALL blame.

Passing the buck is all the rage in corporate and financial circles these days, but that doesnt mean its excusable.
 
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5. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 09:46 Beamer
 
Kajetan wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:42:
dj LiTh wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:17:
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?
That is in most cases the advise of the legal department. Never admit you are wrong. NEVER!

I experienced the same clusterfuck years ago, when the company laywers went crazy with the new TOS for our products. Customers, who actually read this shit were confused and/or angry. Very bad press was generated. Only after a few court proceedings were lost, the TOS finally changed.

The legal department? Everything was smooth, nobody of THEM faced any consequences. Instead the companies executives tried to blame customer service and public relations for doing a bad job in defending the company.

Because, from their perspective, it's better to ask for too much in the ToS and be forced to cut it than to ask for too little and either give up something critical or get sued for doing something necessary.

Law is all about risk management, and it's far less risky to screw up by asking for too much than screw up by asking for too little.

Again, like I said in the SC5 thread, it isn't difficult to see where lawyers come from here. When a bug exploiter gets banned the first thing they'll do is claim they didn't exploit the bug. If the bar for banning is below exploitation then it's harder for them to defend themselves. No one ever, ever plans to enforce the "banned for not reporting a bug," but if the burden of proof is just "you knew about it" rather than "you actively exploited it" then it's much easier to give them the boot.
Or so the thinking from lawyers go.

Most of the most egregious stuff in ToS or EULAs aren't there so you can be fucked over, they're there to cover the company's ass.

Which, as I said in the other thread, doesn't mean you shouldn't argue it and fight it, but it's tiresome to hear "OMG THEY WANT TO BONE US IN THE BUTT!" when no one ever actually planned on doing that and the people who would be responsible for doing such boning have no clue the language is even in there.
 
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4. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 09:42 Beamer
 
nin wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:00:
So we now know why EULAs and ToSes are so lengthy: Even the people making the games can't be bothered to read the crap they let their lawyers stuff into them.

Win!


And this is exactly what I said about SimCity.
 
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3. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 09:42 Kajetan
 
dj LiTh wrote on Jan 30, 2013, 09:17:
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?
That is in most cases the advise of the legal department. Never admit you are wrong. NEVER!

I experienced the same clusterfuck years ago, when the company laywers went crazy with the new TOS for our products. Customers, who actually read this shit were confused and/or angry. Very bad press was generated. Only after a few court proceedings were lost, the TOS finally changed.

The legal department? Everything was smooth, nobody of THEM faced any consequences. Instead the companies executives tried to blame customer service and public relations for doing a bad job in defending the company.
 
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2. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 09:17 dj LiTh
 
So they arent changing the EULA but they arent enforcing it? Is that like reserving the option to fuck you in the ass?  
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1. Re: Crysis 3 Crisis Averted Jan 30, 2013, 09:00 nin
 
So we now know why EULAs and ToSes are so lengthy: Even the people making the games can't be bothered to read the crap they let their lawyers stuff into them.

Win!

 
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