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62 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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42. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 12:23 RollinThundr
 
Verno wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 11:56:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 11:42:

A handgun can fire blistering fast as well. A vehicle can be used as a one ton projectile of death, and was I believe the leading cause of death last year, so should we ban cars? Maybe just the fast vroom vroom red ones? And again the 2nd amendment is not there for "hunting" But you know that.

This argument doesn't make any sense, it's not about determining the leading causes of death as those are known quantities. You're also ignoring that a great deal of prevention measures have been and continue to be enacted for things like cars, roadways, chemicals, etc. Gun control debates are pointless anyway, people on both sides get too emotional and are way too invested in their position to ever be reasonable about it.

Updating and modifying gun control happens all the time and I would think any responsible gun advocate will appreciate that. It's not a catch all to stop random violence though, people need to realize that. Just like updating health care will not guarantee that a sick person won't get a gun and do this again. There are no fixes, all we can do is strive to do better and hope that it works.

I realize you need to periodically update, I have no problems with that. The issue I have with this whole debate is they should be looking at the mental health aspect and ways we can improve that. Instead we're looking to ban clip sizes which won't make one lick of difference.
 
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41. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 11:56 Verno
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 11:42:

A handgun can fire blistering fast as well. A vehicle can be used as a one ton projectile of death, and was I believe the leading cause of death last year, so should we ban cars? Maybe just the fast vroom vroom red ones? And again the 2nd amendment is not there for "hunting" But you know that.

This argument doesn't make any sense, it's not about determining the leading causes of death as those are known quantities. You're also ignoring that a great deal of prevention measures have been and continue to be enacted for things like cars, roadways, chemicals, etc. Gun control debates are pointless anyway, people on both sides get too emotional and are way too invested in their position to ever be reasonable about it.

Updating and modifying gun control happens all the time and I would think any responsible gun advocate will appreciate that. It's not a catch all to stop random violence though, people need to realize that. Just like updating health care will not guarantee that a sick person won't get a gun and do this again. There are no fixes, all we can do is strive to do better and hope that it works.
 
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40. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 11:44 Beamer
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 11:42:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 10:34:
Rossafur wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 19:07:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.

Can't believe I still hear people on a daily basis saying they believe that machine-guns are legal, and that's what's being used in these shootings. Full-auto has been illegal for quite awhile for the average citizen to own. The AR-15's and AK-47's you can legally buy in the US are semi-auto, meaning one bullet per pull of the trigger. Most all handguns (for quite a long time now) are semi-auto too (and handguns kill farrrr more people in the US any other type of firearm), and there are semi-auto shotguns as well (though even a pump-action can be fired quickly enough with practice).

Oh, and a shotgun at close range is generally going to be more deadly than an AR-15 (5.56mm/.223 caliber) or many handguns, but of course it depends on where you get hit.

Things that designated weapons as "assault weapons" were basically cosmetic (they "look" scary!) and had nothing to do with the lethality... Pistol grip, bayonet lug (because you hear about all those bayonet attacks going on), flash suppressor (just prevents the shooter from being blinded when firing in the dark), and collapsible/telescoping butt stocks.

Oh and if that guy in Aurora had used the explosives he had set up in his apartment in the theater instead, he probably would have killed a whole lot more people than he did. The worst school killing in American history occurred in 1927, where 44 people were killed by a suicidal farmer with his dynamite-filled car.


We know all of that, yes the style of gun is being attacked. The rifle is more powerful than the handgun. The semi-auto can shoot blistering fast even one pull at a time, many also are mod'd for full auto. Yes it is a "perception" thing on top of it's way overboard, not needed for protection or hunting.

A handgun can fire blistering fast as well. A vehicle can be used as a one ton projectile of death, and was I believe the leading cause of death last year, so should we ban cars? Maybe just the fast vroom vroom red ones? And again the 2nd amendment is not there for "hunting" But you know that.

We make it difficult to get cars, take licenses away all the time, and have an enormous amount of restrictions on them that we don't have on guns.
 
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39. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 11:42 RollinThundr
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 10:34:
Rossafur wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 19:07:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.

Can't believe I still hear people on a daily basis saying they believe that machine-guns are legal, and that's what's being used in these shootings. Full-auto has been illegal for quite awhile for the average citizen to own. The AR-15's and AK-47's you can legally buy in the US are semi-auto, meaning one bullet per pull of the trigger. Most all handguns (for quite a long time now) are semi-auto too (and handguns kill farrrr more people in the US any other type of firearm), and there are semi-auto shotguns as well (though even a pump-action can be fired quickly enough with practice).

Oh, and a shotgun at close range is generally going to be more deadly than an AR-15 (5.56mm/.223 caliber) or many handguns, but of course it depends on where you get hit.

Things that designated weapons as "assault weapons" were basically cosmetic (they "look" scary!) and had nothing to do with the lethality... Pistol grip, bayonet lug (because you hear about all those bayonet attacks going on), flash suppressor (just prevents the shooter from being blinded when firing in the dark), and collapsible/telescoping butt stocks.

Oh and if that guy in Aurora had used the explosives he had set up in his apartment in the theater instead, he probably would have killed a whole lot more people than he did. The worst school killing in American history occurred in 1927, where 44 people were killed by a suicidal farmer with his dynamite-filled car.


We know all of that, yes the style of gun is being attacked. The rifle is more powerful than the handgun. The semi-auto can shoot blistering fast even one pull at a time, many also are mod'd for full auto. Yes it is a "perception" thing on top of it's way overboard, not needed for protection or hunting.

A handgun can fire blistering fast as well. A vehicle can be used as a one ton projectile of death, and was I believe the leading cause of death last year, so should we ban cars? Maybe just the fast vroom vroom red ones? And again the 2nd amendment is not there for "hunting" But you know that.
 
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38. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 11:39 RollinThundr
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 10:12:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 08:21:
I call what they're proposing knee jerk because it won't help at all and they're using these victims as a platform to justify more control for the sake of it.
Right, and I tried to give examples of a couple of non-knee-jerky things that could be done to improve the situation. The biggest elephant in the room is still the rather appalling state of mental health care in this country. Until we start doing something about that, instead of just dispensing pills to anyone with insurance, anything else we try is just a band-aid at best. Unfortunately, that hasn't been a priority for either party, but the Republicans are generally much more opposed to broadening access to health care. Time for them to face up to it.

Regardless of its flaws, Obamacare is better than what we've had up until now, and certainly better than the huge nothing that Republicans did over the 10 years or so that they were in control. As far as I'm concerned, they had their chance to do something constructive and passed on it, so they can quit whining now and start cooperating and working to improve it. Particularly focusing on improving mental health care. Then maybe we could start getting somewhere.

You're saying the same thing I have been saying, careful Beamer might label you as an irrational unfeeling moron.

As much as I hate to say it you're spot on with regards to the Repubs dropping the ball on healthcare as well. I still believe Obamacare is a total abuse of the commerce clause and will end up costing everyone more for healthcare overall, though it's at the point where both parties need to knock off the partisan bullshit and get some things accomplished.
 
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37. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 10:34 HorrorScope
 
Rossafur wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 19:07:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.

Can't believe I still hear people on a daily basis saying they believe that machine-guns are legal, and that's what's being used in these shootings. Full-auto has been illegal for quite awhile for the average citizen to own. The AR-15's and AK-47's you can legally buy in the US are semi-auto, meaning one bullet per pull of the trigger. Most all handguns (for quite a long time now) are semi-auto too (and handguns kill farrrr more people in the US any other type of firearm), and there are semi-auto shotguns as well (though even a pump-action can be fired quickly enough with practice).

Oh, and a shotgun at close range is generally going to be more deadly than an AR-15 (5.56mm/.223 caliber) or many handguns, but of course it depends on where you get hit.

Things that designated weapons as "assault weapons" were basically cosmetic (they "look" scary!) and had nothing to do with the lethality... Pistol grip, bayonet lug (because you hear about all those bayonet attacks going on), flash suppressor (just prevents the shooter from being blinded when firing in the dark), and collapsible/telescoping butt stocks.

Oh and if that guy in Aurora had used the explosives he had set up in his apartment in the theater instead, he probably would have killed a whole lot more people than he did. The worst school killing in American history occurred in 1927, where 44 people were killed by a suicidal farmer with his dynamite-filled car.


We know all of that, yes the style of gun is being attacked. The rifle is more powerful than the handgun. The semi-auto can shoot blistering fast even one pull at a time, many also are mod'd for full auto. Yes it is a "perception" thing on top of it's way overboard, not needed for protection or hunting.
 
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36. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 10:12 Wowbagger_TIP
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 08:21:
I call what they're proposing knee jerk because it won't help at all and they're using these victims as a platform to justify more control for the sake of it.
Right, and I tried to give examples of a couple of non-knee-jerky things that could be done to improve the situation. The biggest elephant in the room is still the rather appalling state of mental health care in this country. Until we start doing something about that, instead of just dispensing pills to anyone with insurance, anything else we try is just a band-aid at best. Unfortunately, that hasn't been a priority for either party, but the Republicans are generally much more opposed to broadening access to health care. Time for them to face up to it.

Regardless of its flaws, Obamacare is better than what we've had up until now, and certainly better than the huge nothing that Republicans did over the 10 years or so that they were in control. As far as I'm concerned, they had their chance to do something constructive and passed on it, so they can quit whining now and start cooperating and working to improve it. Particularly focusing on improving mental health care. Then maybe we could start getting somewhere.
 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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35. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 08:21 RollinThundr
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Jan 14, 2013, 00:53:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 13:43:
I don't however 99.99% of the time liberals propose knee jerk reactions

20 kids mowed down and you throw out knee jerk reactions. How many have to die for you? Probably doesn't matter... until it hits home.
How many have to die until what? Until we do something stupid, pointless and knee-jerky? That seems to be about all that's on the table right now. Hasn't helped in the past.

HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
All 3 mediums can give some, doesn't mean it won't happen, but we can do better. Assualt, clip size, banning gun shows and registration are all things that can be put on the table, not meaning all are gotten.
Opening up NICS for use in private sales would be a good thing. Improving reporting from the states about those who should be listed as a prohibited person in NICS would also be a good thing. The reporting is pretty bad right now. That stuff also needs to be maintained. Maintenance costs money. But money doesn't seem to be an issue to those calling for new laws anyway.

HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.
Wow. That's a pretty dishonest portrayal of the incident. The kid went in with the intent to shoot a couple of specific people, who he called out by name. He shot one before his teacher intervened to try to talk him down. He even said he didn't want to hurt the teacher. He wasn't a spree shooter out to kill as many as possible. Trying to paint him as such to help your argument is pretty weak.

I call what they're proposing knee jerk because it won't help at all and they're using these victims as a platform to justify more control for the sake of it.

 
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34. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 14, 2013, 00:54 Wowbagger_TIP
 
StreetPreacher wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 01:09:
PropheT wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 23:17:
NewMaxx wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 22:50:
What was the statistic? Oh right...more people were killed last year by bludgeoning than guns in this country.

Um...bullshit.

Not for last year, but you get the idea that it isn't even a LITTLE close: FBI Expanded homicide statistics for 2007-2011

I seem to remember the quote you're talking about somewhere, though, and they didn't say "guns" they said a specific type of rifle.
Assault rifles. More people are killed each year by bludgeoning (and bicycles, interestingly enough) than are killed w/ assault rifles, which comprise a fraction of 1% of homicides.

Actually, according to the FBI statistics (latest that I can find), more people are killed by unarmed people than by all kinds of rifles and shotguns combined.
 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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33. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 14, 2013, 00:53 Wowbagger_TIP
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 13:43:
I don't however 99.99% of the time liberals propose knee jerk reactions

20 kids mowed down and you throw out knee jerk reactions. How many have to die for you? Probably doesn't matter... until it hits home.
How many have to die until what? Until we do something stupid, pointless and knee-jerky? That seems to be about all that's on the table right now. Hasn't helped in the past.

HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
All 3 mediums can give some, doesn't mean it won't happen, but we can do better. Assualt, clip size, banning gun shows and registration are all things that can be put on the table, not meaning all are gotten.
Opening up NICS for use in private sales would be a good thing. Improving reporting from the states about those who should be listed as a prohibited person in NICS would also be a good thing. The reporting is pretty bad right now. That stuff also needs to be maintained. Maintenance costs money. But money doesn't seem to be an issue to those calling for new laws anyway.

HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.
Wow. That's a pretty dishonest portrayal of the incident. The kid went in with the intent to shoot a couple of specific people, who he called out by name. He shot one before his teacher intervened to try to talk him down. He even said he didn't want to hurt the teacher. He wasn't a spree shooter out to kill as many as possible. Trying to paint him as such to help your argument is pretty weak.
 
Avatar 9540
 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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32. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 13, 2013, 19:07 Rossafur
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 14:43:
This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.

Can't believe I still hear people on a daily basis saying they believe that machine-guns are legal, and that's what's being used in these shootings. Full-auto has been illegal for quite awhile for the average citizen to own. The AR-15's and AK-47's you can legally buy in the US are semi-auto, meaning one bullet per pull of the trigger. Most all handguns (for quite a long time now) are semi-auto too (and handguns kill farrrr more people in the US any other type of firearm), and there are semi-auto shotguns as well (though even a pump-action can be fired quickly enough with practice).

Oh, and a shotgun at close range is generally going to be more deadly than an AR-15 (5.56mm/.223 caliber) or many handguns, but of course it depends on where you get hit.

Things that designated weapons as "assault weapons" were basically cosmetic (they "look" scary!) and had nothing to do with the lethality... Pistol grip, bayonet lug (because you hear about all those bayonet attacks going on), flash suppressor (just prevents the shooter from being blinded when firing in the dark), and collapsible/telescoping butt stocks.

Oh and if that guy in Aurora had used the explosives he had set up in his apartment in the theater instead, he probably would have killed a whole lot more people than he did. The worst school killing in American history occurred in 1927, where 44 people were killed by a suicidal farmer with his dynamite-filled car.

 
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31. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 13, 2013, 14:56 HorrorScope
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 11:32:
Look, we're heading towards being a nanny state like Australia, all the beta pussies on the left that like being told how to live by the government are leading the charge on that.

The gov't's been in control for decades prior to your existence. Both sides what to tell you what they want and how for you to do it. Too funny thinking one wants to control you and the other doesn't. The goal of humanity is too make as many people as possible healthy and thrive. Gov't can do good on something by acting as a power buyer for the people.
 
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30. Re: More Big Picture Details Jan 13, 2013, 14:43 HorrorScope
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 13:43:
I don't however 99.99% of the time liberals propose knee jerk reactions

20 kids mowed down and you throw out knee jerk reactions. How many have to die for you? Probably doesn't matter... until it hits home.

All 3 mediums can give some, doesn't mean it won't happen, but we can do better. Assualt, clip size, banning gun shows and registration are all things that can be put on the table, not meaning all are gotten.

This week in CA a person goes in with a shotgun, only shot one and they are are in critical but stable. That is the difference between handgun/rifle/shotgun vs spray and pray guns. Not that someone won't die, but it does limit it. Hence... doing a little better.
 
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29. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 14:31 Dades
 
I don't however 99.99% of the time liberals propose knee jerk reactions to things and look for other things to blame rather than individuals themselves, be it video games, or movies, or anything else.

I'm sure you'd love to blame all of the worlds problems on the liberal boogeyman but some of us live in reality where issues are complex and there isn't one thing to pin it on. I'll take all of that as an apology for misrepresenting what I said too, making things up is never a good idea.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
 
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28. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 13:43 RollinThundr
 
Dades wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 13:36:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 13:29:

You seem to be ignoring all the gun laws on the books already

No I didn't, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

As a responsible gun owner I don't have any problem with gun control laws, I'd just point out that we already have many on the books and gun control isn't where the problem lies.

Now for this:

Also please explain to me why it's always democrats who want to add more gun laws on the books?

What makes you think democrats are the only ones in favor of gun law? Since when do you speak for everyone on the right? You need a reality check. I support many restrictions on gun sale and use. This is just another example of you attempting to polarize a political discussion because that's all you know.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

I don't however 99.99% of the time liberals propose knee jerk reactions to things and look for other things to blame rather than individuals themselves, be it video games, or movies, or anything else.

I hate to sound like a broken record but here it is again, personal responsibility is consistently ignored in favor of knee jerk reactions and it's irresponsible to do so.

How many more useless gun laws do we need to see the laws aren't the problem? The people performing these crimes are.
 
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27. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 13:36 Dades
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 13:29:

You seem to be ignoring all the gun laws on the books already

No I didn't, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

As a responsible gun owner I don't have any problem with gun control laws, I'd just point out that we already have many on the books and gun control isn't where the problem lies.

Now for this:

Also please explain to me why it's always democrats who want to add more gun laws on the books?

What makes you think democrats are the only ones in favor of gun law? Since when do you speak for everyone on the right? You need a reality check. I support many restrictions on gun sale and use. It doesn't mean I need to support all of them. This is just another example of you attempting to polarize a political discussion because that's all you know. One extreme to the other, its comical.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

This comment was edited on Jan 13, 2013, 13:41.
 
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26. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 13:29 RollinThundr
 
Dades wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 12:34:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 12:21:
Hey I'm not the one that contradicted myself in the same sentence. And really, if you honestly believe it's not tied to being a right vs left argument, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap. Different ideologies tend to clash doncha know.

I never contradicted myself and I don't view my ownership of a gun as an ideology, I'm much more mature than that. I can own a gun and believe in my right to informed use while also thinking that there are reasonable levels of gun control necessary for society at large. Likewise I frame my views on my own beliefs, not some shit I saw on television about left vs right. So as much as you want to polarize everything so you can make hysterical rants about left vs right, I'm not biting.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

You seem to be ignoring all the gun laws on the books already, you also seem to ignore that the places with the toughest gun laws like Chicago, tend to have the most crime over all. Statistics don't lie, I wonder why that is?

Why do criminals who don't follow laws anyway, have so much less fear committing crimes in a place like Chicago vs somewhere with concealed carry laws?

Also please explain to me why it's always democrats who want to add more gun laws on the books? Why is it always democrats wanting to ban soda and other sugary drinks because it's making us fat? Pretending that there isn't a correlation between the left and wanting to have tighter control over the populaces doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't need tv to tell me what to think, to be honest I rarely watch tv in the first place aside from Bruins Hockey and Patriots Football. I see enough bull shit in daily life and by interacting with people to form my own views thanks.

 
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25. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 12:34 Dades
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 12:21:
Hey I'm not the one that contradicted myself in the same sentence. And really, if you honestly believe it's not tied to being a right vs left argument, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap. Different ideologies tend to clash doncha know.

I never contradicted myself and I don't view my ownership of a gun as an ideology, I'm much more mature than that. I can own a gun and believe in my right to informed use while also thinking that there are reasonable levels of gun control necessary for society at large. Likewise I frame my views on my own beliefs, not some shit I saw on television about left vs right. So as much as you want to polarize everything so you can make hysterical rants about left vs right, I'm not biting.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
 
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24. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 12:21 RollinThundr
 
Dades wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 12:04:
FloorPie wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 05:25:
They tell me when I can get up, eat, go to work. The work camps here in Siberia are really great.

Yeah let's equate gun control and slavery, that's a reasonable debate Rolleyes

So which is it Dades? Do you believe responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished for a few loose cannons, or are you fine with giving up your rights and your 2nd amendment to make those on the left feel good about themselves?

No, you're not going to box me into a choice with only two extremes that you designed. You try to spin every issue into left vs right hysterics and that's not how I form my opinions.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

Hey I'm not the one that contradicted myself in the same sentence. And really, if you honestly believe it's not tied to being a right vs left argument, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap. Different ideologies tend to clash doncha know.
 
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23. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 13, 2013, 12:04 Dades
 
FloorPie wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 05:25:
They tell me when I can get up, eat, go to work. The work camps here in Siberia are really great.

Yeah let's equate gun control and slavery, that's a reasonable debate Rolleyes

So which is it Dades? Do you believe responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished for a few loose cannons, or are you fine with giving up your rights and your 2nd amendment to make those on the left feel good about themselves?

No, you're not going to box me into a choice with only two extremes that you designed. You try to spin every issue into left vs right hysterics and that's not how I form my opinions.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
 
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