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Op Ed

The Atlantic - How the Video-Game Industry Already Lost Out in the Gun-Control Debate.
As it happens, that's just what happened to games (and popular media more generally) in the NRA's good guy with a gun response to the Newtown shooting. Guns aren't a factor in gun violence for the NRAŚrather, games, media, and law enforcement failures must take the blame. Once the terms of the debate are set like this (and set they very much were thanks to the over-the-top bravado in this press conference) then it's very hard to extract oneself from the debate without shifting the frame, without changing the terms of the debate.

I certainly believe that the White House would like nothing more than to see an end to mass gun murders in America's elementary schools. But the fact remains that gun violence takes place every day, all across this country, at a rate of dozens of deaths a day, and as the leading cause of death among African-American youth. But when the vice president establishes a task force on gun control and violence that includes the media industries that the NRA has once again chosen as their patsies after a particularly heinous and public example of gun violence, all it can do is shift attention away from guns.

IGN - Let's Talk About Violent Video Games.
Distinctions between games for adults and those for kids are fairly clear these days, thanks to the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB). Formed in 1994, the ESRB rates all video games as a guide for parents similar to the way movies are rated by the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA). Games are rated ranging from E for Everyone and T for Teen to M for Mature, 17+.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding that games are only for children. This needs to change for the 'violence in games' dialogue to advance.

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61. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:16 Verno
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 15:10:
translation: Well I can't debate what you're saying about mental health or attacks on the 2nd amendment from the left, so I'm going to personally attack you.

Gun control is not an attack on the second amendment. I support both and I am a Republican. Bhruic already asked you for solutions on this supposedly mental health issue and you ignored it.

We can't "solve" mental health so taking steps to make our society less willing to worship and use guns seems like a better solution but it's a long term cultural project that doesn't have a buzzword and is harder to explain.

You can't keep blaming everything on the left and throw out blatantly dishonest stats about gun crimes, you are just fueling the kind of left wing perceptions of the right that you're so afraid of.
 
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60. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:10 DangerDog
 
So are we looking at an assault weapon ban in video games?

/places new powercell in BFG9000

I guess I can live with that
 
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59. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:10 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 15:03:
Part of the problem is that RollinThundr feels the need to respond not to anyone here but to Piers Morgan. The only people I've ever seen even mention Piers Morgan, let alone pay attention to him, are gun advocates.

No one else is beating his drum, but RollinThundr responds to him, not to us.


translation: Well I can't debate what you're saying about mental health or attacks on the 2nd amendment from the left, so I'm going to personally attack you.

Same ol same ol from the usual suspects. Why not debate the full content of that post rather than taking one sentence out of it to toss out some personal attacks Beamer?
 
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58. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:09 RollinThundr
 
Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:58:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:36:
300 million armed US citizens vs a corrupt political agency or takeover, I put my money on the US citizens

Assuming every man, woman, and child will enlist is perhaps a bit of a stretch. But maybe I'm just too cynical about a populace that can't even achieve 50% voter turnout in most years.

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:36:
People like to ignore the mental health aspect of it when it's a major reason these incidents are happening and solely blaming the NRA, videogames, the GOP, or guns themselves, that's both dishonest and illogical.

Agreed. I play videogames (including "violent" ones). I take Prozac for depression. And there's a gun in my house. In the 15 years those elements have coincided, I have yet to encounter any sort of desire to shoot up a school and/or movie theater, or kill random people I see.

Of course, treating unstable people like Lanza and Holmes as exceptions to the rule doesn't make for good ratings or sound bites.

Well I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement that included everyone who has depression, just those who were clearly beyond the deepend who resorted to committing these acts.
 
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57. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:06 sauron
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:50:
The facts don't lie, the states in which these incidents are happening tend to have the strictest gun laws already and are blue states. I'm sorry if the truth offends you but that's the truth.

If those were concealed carry states or counties, perhaps the shooter would have been the only one killed in any of these incidents.

Honestly, you don't know anything about the facts and are pulling everything you say out of your ass.

Here are the facts:

Real, actual data

Completely random, as you can see.

Now stop posting and go away. You're embarrassing yourself.
 
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Kittens!
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56. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:03 Beamer
 
Part of the problem is that RollinThundr feels the need to respond not to anyone here but to Piers Morgan. The only people I've ever seen even mention Piers Morgan, let alone pay attention to him, are gun advocates.

No one else is beating his drum, but RollinThundr responds to him, not to us.

 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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55. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 15:01 Verno
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:18:
When you have those on the left like Piers Morgan claiming to respect the 2nd amendment, then in the same breath referring to the Constitution as "your little book" while using dead children as a platform to spew anti gun bullshit and subsequently getting owned by anyone he debates with about the topic, it says to me alot what those in the liberal media think about the Constitution.

It's also interesting to me that the places where these incidents are taking place tend to have no carry laws already on the books and are generally majority democrat states.


...wow.

You are really bad at this and not helping at all.
 
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Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
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54. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:58 Chairman Kaga
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:36:
300 million armed US citizens vs a corrupt political agency or takeover, I put my money on the US citizens

Assuming every man, woman, and child will enlist is perhaps a bit of a stretch. But maybe I'm just too cynical about a populace that can't even achieve 50% voter turnout in most years.

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:36:
People like to ignore the mental health aspect of it when it's a major reason these incidents are happening and solely blaming the NRA, videogames, the GOP, or guns themselves, that's both dishonest and illogical.

Agreed. I play videogames (including "violent" ones). I take Prozac for depression. And there's a gun in my house. In the 15 years those elements have coincided, I have yet to encounter any sort of desire to shoot up a school and/or movie theater, or kill random people I see.

Of course, treating unstable people like Lanza and Holmes as exceptions to the rule doesn't make for good ratings or sound bites.
 
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53. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:57 Beamer
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:18:
Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 13:42:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:31:
Look at the list of people performing these shootings, most if not all of them were/are on medications and have mental disorders. So what's more rational, making knee jerk reactions calling for gun bans, rather than look at the symptoms of why these shootings are happening is like putting a bandaid on someone who's arm just got cut off with a chainsaw.

So what's your solution? Yes, most of them have been depressed and on medication. Obviously there's an issue there. Those that weren't on medication were likely just undiagnosed.

But what's your solution? How do you turn the knowledge that some depressed and medicated people buy guns and shoot up public places into stopping this from happening? Do you take the right to buy guns from these people? Well, it's a right, so that'd be difficult, the NRA would still oppose it, and many of them took guns someone else purchased, anyway. Do you lock these people up? Well, that seems easy to abuse and the vast majority of mentally ill people never go on murder sprees. Do you spend more on treatment? That doesn't help the undiagnosed, and I thought you opposed government spending? Our medical health institutions, which were fairly rotten to begin with, were all cut decades ago to decrease government spending.

What is your solution? There are only a few levers we're capable of pulling. Making acquiring guns more difficult seems to be a lever that would have an impact and is one we can easily pull. Can we get rid of all guns? No, and that'd be stupid, anyway. But can we make it more difficult for high capacity magazines to be acquired? Hell yeah.

The NRA advocates safety training and using arms carefully without trampling over the 2nd amendment. The mother in the case of the CT school shooting should not have had guns in the house around her mentally ill son, was her mistake the NRA's fault? Is it every responsible gun owner's fault? I have no issue with more extensive background checks if it's going to keep mentally ill folks from shooting up schools and movie theaters, I don't however support outright bans that won't help a single iota. Perhaps looking at ways to improve treatment of mental health issues rather than just shoving some pills down people's throats and calling it a day wouldn't hurt either.

Banning 30 round clips isn't going to stop some nutbag from shooting people or modifying a gun to fire fully automatic, An AR-15 stock is a semi automatic, not fully auto, it's a total knee jerk reaction to make those on the left who are anti gun feel good.

When you have those on the left like Piers Morgan claiming to respect the 2nd amendment, then in the same breath referring to the Constitution as "your little book" while using dead children as a platform to spew anti gun bullshit and subsequently getting owned by anyone he debates with about the topic, it says to me alot what those in the liberal media think about the Constitution.

It's also interesting to me that the places where these incidents are taking place tend to have no carry laws already on the books and are generally majority democrat states.



Thank you for not actually giving a solution.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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52. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:57 Beamer
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:35:
Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 13:42:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:31:
Look at the list of people performing these shootings, most if not all of them were/are on medications and have mental disorders. So what's more rational, making knee jerk reactions calling for gun bans, rather than look at the symptoms of why these shootings are happening is like putting a bandaid on someone who's arm just got cut off with a chainsaw.

So what's your solution? Yes, most of them have been depressed and on medication. Obviously there's an issue there. Those that weren't on medication were likely just undiagnosed.

But what's your solution? How do you turn the knowledge that some depressed and medicated people buy guns and shoot up public places into stopping this from happening? Do you take the right to buy guns from these people? Well, it's a right, so that'd be difficult, the NRA would still oppose it, and many of them took guns someone else purchased, anyway. Do you lock these people up? Well, that seems easy to abuse and the vast majority of mentally ill people never go on murder sprees. Do you spend more on treatment? That doesn't help the undiagnosed, and I thought you opposed government spending? Our medical health institutions, which were fairly rotten to begin with, were all cut decades ago to decrease government spending.

What is your solution? There are only a few levers we're capable of pulling. Making acquiring guns more difficult seems to be a lever that would have an impact and is one we can easily pull. Can we get rid of all guns? No, and that'd be stupid, anyway. But can we make it more difficult for high capacity magazines to be acquired? Hell yeah.

Punish the innocent to absolve the sins of the guilty, eh?

What is the punishment?

The current proposal makes it harder to get guns. Not impossible. Harder. More background checks. If you're innocent the only thing you lose is a high capacity magazine. That doesn't really seem like much of a loss.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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51. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:51 Creston
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:33:
For all our military might, we have been unable to win the war on drugs, the war on terrorism,

I'll agree with the War on Drugs, but the War on Terrorism? Last I checked, the US has not had an attack against the "homeland" since the formation of the Department of Homeland Security. (and the start of the rather poorly named "war on terror.")

I'd call that a pretty reasonable success.

Creston
 
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50. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:50 RollinThundr
 
sauron wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:40:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:18:
When you have those on the left like Piers Morgan claiming to respect the 2nd amendment, then in the same breath referring to the Constitution as "your little book"...

It's also interesting to me that the places where these incidents are taking place tend to have no carry laws already on the books and are generally majority democrat states.

Piers Morgan is actually a right-winger and widely reviled by the left wing media (and most everyone else). His problem isn't that he's a liberal, it's that he's British, which is almost as bad.

Your second paragraph linking gun incidents to Democrat states is offensive, wack-job, tinfoil hat bullshit and you should be ashamed of yourself. I sure as hell am.

If he's right wing why does he constantly attack conservatives on his show? Piers should go the fuck back to Brittan if he hates the 2nd amendment so much, he's not a US Citizen, oh wait he fled Brittan to avoid being prosecuted for phone hacking. That and his own countrymen can't stand him either.

The facts don't lie, the states in which these incidents are happening tend to have the strictest gun laws already and are blue states. I'm sorry if the truth offends you but that's the truth.

If those were concealed carry states or counties, perhaps the shooter would have been the only one killed in any of these incidents.
 
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49. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:49 Creston
 
Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:11:
And do you honestly think you, or any other cabal of armed insurrection, stand any sort of chance should the US decide to turn its current military power on its own citizens? Your pistols and shotguns against guys with M4s, body armor, drones, and cruise missiles. Let me know how that goes. Probably about as well as my last game of XCOM.

Chairman Kaga wins the internet today.

(Impossible Iron Man game, Kaga?)

Creston
 
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48. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:40 sauron
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:18:
When you have those on the left like Piers Morgan claiming to respect the 2nd amendment, then in the same breath referring to the Constitution as "your little book"...

It's also interesting to me that the places where these incidents are taking place tend to have no carry laws already on the books and are generally majority democrat states.

Piers Morgan is actually a right-winger and widely reviled by the left wing media (and most everyone else). His problem isn't that he's a liberal, it's that he's British, which is almost as bad.

Your second paragraph linking gun incidents to Democrat states is offensive, wack-job, tinfoil hat bullshit and you should be ashamed of yourself. I sure as hell am.
 
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Kittens!
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47. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:36 RollinThundr
 
Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:28:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:20:
Do you honestly think everyone in the armed forces would follow orders to kill their neighbors & loved ones just because a corrupt political element decided to seize control?

I don't. I prefer to believe that the hearts of our soldiers are the best check and balance against this sort of thing happening.

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:20:
Listen, I don't think this is probable, but saying "Oh it could never happen in the US lets ban guns" is naive.

I don't think guns should be banned. Everyone has the right to their own defense, and the police certainly aren't it. You're probably dead by the time they show up.

But this whole "the Second Amendment lets us revolt against the next Hitler/Stalin/Manchurian candidate" argument is ludicrous, and serves as nothing but a distraction from any true meaningful discussion on the matter of gun violence. The fact that it's the island of first resort for a non-trivial portion of the pro-gun side is disturbing.

300 million armed US citizens vs a corrupt political agency or takeover, I put my money on the US citizens, unless they were to start letting nukes fly.

It's not that the 2nd amendment just gives the right to go after the government just because, that isn't what I'm suggesting here or supporting. But it is the major reason it's in there in the first place.

People like to ignore the mental health aspect of it when it's a major reason these incidents are happening and solely blaming the NRA, videogames, the GOP, or guns themselves, that's both dishonest and illogical.
 
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46. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:35 Agent.X7
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 13:42:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:31:
Look at the list of people performing these shootings, most if not all of them were/are on medications and have mental disorders. So what's more rational, making knee jerk reactions calling for gun bans, rather than look at the symptoms of why these shootings are happening is like putting a bandaid on someone who's arm just got cut off with a chainsaw.

So what's your solution? Yes, most of them have been depressed and on medication. Obviously there's an issue there. Those that weren't on medication were likely just undiagnosed.

But what's your solution? How do you turn the knowledge that some depressed and medicated people buy guns and shoot up public places into stopping this from happening? Do you take the right to buy guns from these people? Well, it's a right, so that'd be difficult, the NRA would still oppose it, and many of them took guns someone else purchased, anyway. Do you lock these people up? Well, that seems easy to abuse and the vast majority of mentally ill people never go on murder sprees. Do you spend more on treatment? That doesn't help the undiagnosed, and I thought you opposed government spending? Our medical health institutions, which were fairly rotten to begin with, were all cut decades ago to decrease government spending.

What is your solution? There are only a few levers we're capable of pulling. Making acquiring guns more difficult seems to be a lever that would have an impact and is one we can easily pull. Can we get rid of all guns? No, and that'd be stupid, anyway. But can we make it more difficult for high capacity magazines to be acquired? Hell yeah.

Punish the innocent to absolve the sins of the guilty, eh?
 
Avatar 23400
 
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STEAM - Agent.X7
PSN - JStar_X7
Xbox Live - Agent X7
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45. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:33 Agent.X7
 
Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:11:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:08:
You're missing the forest from the trees, a corrupt political faction in the US could push to become a totalitarian state, the only way they would succeed at that is to first strip US citizens of their guns. That's why the 2nd amendment is in place, to prevent that from ever happening.

And do you honestly think you, or any other cabal of armed insurrection, stand any sort of chance should the US decide to turn its current military power on its own citizens? Your pistols and shotguns against guys with M4s, body armor, drones, and cruise missiles. Let me know how that goes. Probably about as well as my last game of XCOM.

As much as I am with you on the heart and soul and purpose of the Second Amendment, one must also concede that it has been rendered obsolete by technological progress and economies of scale. We are already at the full mercy of this government, for better or worse.

The most dangerous people in America are these nutters like Alex Jones, which combine the fantasy of the Second Amendment in the modern age with the mental instability of rampant conspiracist thought.

Let's see, how did Vietnam work out for us? And Iraq, nobody is still fighting there, right? And Afghanistan, those guys are clearly surrendering, just like they did to the Soviets in the 80s.

For all our military might, we have been unable to win the war on drugs, the war on terrorism, and countless other actions. Sure, we could bomb the citizens into submission, but what would the ruling class rule then? Smoking wastelands? That wouldn't be much of a victory.

 
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44. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:28 Chairman Kaga
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:20:
Do you honestly think everyone in the armed forces would follow orders to kill their neighbors & loved ones just because a corrupt political element decided to seize control?

I don't. I prefer to believe that the hearts of our soldiers are the best check and balance against this sort of thing happening.

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:20:
Listen, I don't think this is probable, but saying "Oh it could never happen in the US lets ban guns" is naive.

I don't think guns should be banned. Everyone has the right to their own defense, and the police certainly aren't it. You're probably dead by the time they show up.

But this whole "the Second Amendment lets us revolt against the next Hitler/Stalin/Manchurian candidate" argument is ludicrous, and serves as nothing but a distraction from any true meaningful discussion on the matter of gun violence. The fact that it's the island of first resort for a non-trivial portion of the pro-gun side is disturbing.
 
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43. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:20 RollinThundr
 
Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:11:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:08:
You're missing the forest from the trees, a corrupt political faction in the US could push to become a totalitarian state, the only way they would succeed at that is to first strip US citizens of their guns. That's why the 2nd amendment is in place, to prevent that from ever happening.

And do you honestly think you, or any other cabal of armed insurrection, stand any sort of chance should the US decide to turn its current military power on its own citizens? Your pistols and shotguns against guys with M4s, body armor, drones, and cruise missiles. Let me know how that goes. Probably about as well as my last game of XCOM.

As much as I am with you on the heart and soul and purpose of the Second Amendment, one must also concede that it has been rendered obsolete by technological progress and economies of scale. We are already at the full mercy of this government, for better or worse.

The most dangerous people in America are these nutters like Alex Jones, which combine the fantasy of the Second Amendment in the modern age with the mental instability of rampant conspiracist thought.

Do you honestly think everyone in the armed forces would follow orders to kill their neighbors & loved ones just because a corrupt political element decided to seize control?

Listen, I don't think this is probable, but saying "Oh it could never happen in the US lets ban guns" is naive.
 
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42. Re: Op Ed Jan 11, 2013, 14:18 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 13:42:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:31:
Look at the list of people performing these shootings, most if not all of them were/are on medications and have mental disorders. So what's more rational, making knee jerk reactions calling for gun bans, rather than look at the symptoms of why these shootings are happening is like putting a bandaid on someone who's arm just got cut off with a chainsaw.

So what's your solution? Yes, most of them have been depressed and on medication. Obviously there's an issue there. Those that weren't on medication were likely just undiagnosed.

But what's your solution? How do you turn the knowledge that some depressed and medicated people buy guns and shoot up public places into stopping this from happening? Do you take the right to buy guns from these people? Well, it's a right, so that'd be difficult, the NRA would still oppose it, and many of them took guns someone else purchased, anyway. Do you lock these people up? Well, that seems easy to abuse and the vast majority of mentally ill people never go on murder sprees. Do you spend more on treatment? That doesn't help the undiagnosed, and I thought you opposed government spending? Our medical health institutions, which were fairly rotten to begin with, were all cut decades ago to decrease government spending.

What is your solution? There are only a few levers we're capable of pulling. Making acquiring guns more difficult seems to be a lever that would have an impact and is one we can easily pull. Can we get rid of all guns? No, and that'd be stupid, anyway. But can we make it more difficult for high capacity magazines to be acquired? Hell yeah.

The NRA advocates safety training and using arms carefully without trampling over the 2nd amendment. The mother in the case of the CT school shooting should not have had guns in the house around her mentally ill son, was her mistake the NRA's fault? Is it every responsible gun owner's fault? I have no issue with more extensive background checks if it's going to keep mentally ill folks from shooting up schools and movie theaters, I don't however support outright bans that won't help a single iota. Perhaps looking at ways to improve treatment of mental health issues rather than just shoving some pills down people's throats and calling it a day wouldn't hurt either.

Banning 30 round clips isn't going to stop some nutbag from shooting people or modifying a gun to fire fully automatic, An AR-15 stock is a semi automatic, not fully auto, it's a total knee jerk reaction to make those on the left who are anti gun feel good.

When you have those on the left like Piers Morgan claiming to respect the 2nd amendment, then in the same breath referring to the Constitution as "your little book" while using dead children as a platform to spew anti gun bullshit and subsequently getting owned by anyone he debates with about the topic, it says to me alot what those in the liberal media think about the Constitution.

It's also interesting to me that the places where these incidents are taking place tend to have no carry laws already on the books and are generally majority democrat states.

 
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