NYTimes.com - Game Theory- Making Room for the Women.
Unfortunately this rise in so-called casual play has upset some of those who see themselves as guardians of the true flame. There’s been a definite backlash against the idea that women are entering the hallowed citadel, dropping in a few scatter cushions and ending all the fun. Particular ire is reserved for anyone who dares to point out that female characters in games are often unsupported in the bra region for no apparent reason; given boring, bland supporting roles; and totally absent.
panbient wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 07:01:Jerykk wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 01:47:
Adult males are the target audience of hardcore games because they are the largest demographic for such games.
But which came first? The demographic demanding that style of sexist game or the sexist game that demanded an audience and lucked out?
I remember when Quake was -the- hardcore game, how could that game be successful without boobs? The demographic was fine with the products released that lacked overt sexism. So why the shift?
I also think comparing film and games is like comparing apples to twinkies. While there is sexism within Bond films they aren't sexist, they are capable of providing entertainment for both genders without forcing anyone to adopt a particular behaviour. You never have to grow a thicker skin to deal with verbal abuse from other moviegoers.
Draugr wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 00:01:
You're anecdote boils down to 'I don't think women really are into games because when I went to LAN parties I think one of the women only played because of her boyfriend, and the other two I don't consider good enough to be real gamers'...Strange how bad players at LAN parties who have penises aren't written off in such a fashion. No one questions them about being 'real gamers' they're just shitty players.
I think it's silly to take an anecdote as evidence alone, which you're basically doing. The very fact that your anecdote has 3 women in it kind of proves the point that there are women who play these kind of games. Certainly it is a male dominated hobby, but they aren't just conjured up or only there to play because of a man as you and others seem to imply. I mean there were three examples in your story, but you focused on the woman who was there because of her boyfriend, the only one of the three that reinforced your argument.
If I told a story about how there were no black people at the LAN parties I attended growing up, and therefore it leads me to believe that black people aren't into video games (or aren't into the same video games as white people,) I think you'd consider that pretty absurd. This is what you're asking us to do with your anecdote.
There are also probably more female players that play the kind of games you say they don't than you'd think. You play hundreds of faceless people when you play online, some of those people are going to be women. Obviously you'd be none the wiser unless you asked.
Because some people would prefer things to change, and do what they can to affect it instead of just keeping their head down. The consolation prize I guess, is people like yourself who don't want to play halo because of toxic environment can reap the benefits. As you said you don't play these games for the very reasons she is talking about them anyway, so if this is really where the focus is I don't see why you would be concerned.
Draugr wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 00:01:Slashman wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 18:28:
In my LAN party days, there were only about 3 women who would set up and play with the rest of the group. Of those 3, there was one who was really good at FPS games and she repeatedly kicked a lot of our butts in UT and Quake(including mine). At the end of the day though, as good as she was, she really wasn't that into gaming for itself, she just had a boyfriend who was hardcore into gaming and she picked it up from him. It was way more about doing something with her boyfriend than anything else.
Basically, I think that's your answer. While as a male, I'm going to respond to scantily clad women and similar attempts to appeal to my base male urges, in the end I'm going to respond way more to great gameplay and the challenge of pushing myself to overcome both human and AI opponents in a game. In general, women will respond way less to those things.
You're anecdote boils down to 'I don't think women really are into games because when I went to LAN parties I think one of the women only played because of her boyfriend, and the other two I don't consider good enough to be real gamers'...Strange how bad players at LAN parties who have penises aren't written off in such a fashion. No one questions them about being 'real gamers' they're just shitty players.
I think it's silly to take an anecdote as evidence alone, which you're basically doing. The very fact that your anecdote has 3 women in it kind of proves the point that there are women who play these kind of games. Certainly it is a male dominated hobby, but they aren't just conjured up or only there to play because of a man as you and others seem to imply. I mean there were three examples in your story, but you focused on the woman who was there because of her boyfriend, the only one of the three that reinforced your argument.
If I told a story about how there were no black people at the LAN parties I attended growing up, and therefore it leads me to believe that black people aren't into video games (or aren't into the same video games as white people,) I think you'd consider that pretty absurd. This is what you're asking us to do with your anecdote.
There are also probably more female players that play the kind of games you say they don't than you'd think. You play hundreds of faceless people when you play online, some of those people are going to be women. Obviously you'd be none the wiser unless you asked.The reason I question articles like this is because the women in them seem to have such a narrow focus in gaming. Halo and CoD on XBox Live. Never anything else mentioned. What are they expecting to get from a bunch of immature, teenaged brats? Why even put yourself into that environment? I don't even want to go there as a male.
Because some people would prefer things to change, and do what they can to affect it instead of just keeping their head down. The consolation prize I guess, is people like yourself who don't want to play halo because of toxic environment can reap the benefits. As you said you don't play these games for the very reasons she is talking about them anyway, so if this is really where the focus is I don't see why you would be concerned.
Jerykk wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 01:47:
Adult males are the target audience of hardcore games because they are the largest demographic for such games.
panbient wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 17:35:Jerykk wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 17:12:
Unless the male gaming demographic suddenly becomes overtaken by women gamers, that isn't going to change.
Depending on what facet of the industry you look at it already happened, especially on the casual side of the fence (where most titles are either gender neutral or feature characters who are less sexualized). The games might not be as 'real' as true hardcore gamers expect but billions of dollars in revenue is still billions of dollars going into the gaming industry.
We might want to start actually catering rather than pandering to that demographic.
Slashman wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 18:28:
In my LAN party days, there were only about 3 women who would set up and play with the rest of the group. Of those 3, there was one who was really good at FPS games and she repeatedly kicked a lot of our butts in UT and Quake(including mine). At the end of the day though, as good as she was, she really wasn't that into gaming for itself, she just had a boyfriend who was hardcore into gaming and she picked it up from him. It was way more about doing something with her boyfriend than anything else.
Basically, I think that's your answer. While as a male, I'm going to respond to scantily clad women and similar attempts to appeal to my base male urges, in the end I'm going to respond way more to great gameplay and the challenge of pushing myself to overcome both human and AI opponents in a game. In general, women will respond way less to those things.
The reason I question articles like this is because the women in them seem to have such a narrow focus in gaming. Halo and CoD on XBox Live. Never anything else mentioned. What are they expecting to get from a bunch of immature, teenaged brats? Why even put yourself into that environment? I don't even want to go there as a male.
Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:51:
How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?
Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.
http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2
But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.
Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:57:Slashman wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 12:51:I don't know. I haven't looked. That's why I said we should ask them what is unappealing about gaming.Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 02:01:
I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.
Why don't you enlighten me on what you think the reasons are.
Personally I am way less interested in the fact that none of them wanted to participate at a LAN party than I am in the fact that they still don't play those games in the privacy of their own homes. So I'd say it has way less to do with social pressure than a general lack of interest in hardcore gaming.
Jerykk wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 17:12:
Unless the male gaming demographic suddenly becomes overtaken by women gamers, that isn't going to change.
nin wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:55:I couldn't let that comment go, I'm sorry.Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:51:RollinThundr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:08:How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Draugr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 15:30:Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:
If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.
If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.
Which is what makes this thread so amusing.
In a depressing way. :S
Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.
Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.
http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2
But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.
And another derail by trollin...
Slashman wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 12:51:I don't know. I haven't looked. That's why I said we should ask them what is unappealing about gaming.Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 02:01:
I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.
Why don't you enlighten me on what you think the reasons are.
Personally I am way less interested in the fact that none of them wanted to participate at a LAN party than I am in the fact that they still don't play those games in the privacy of their own homes. So I'd say it has way less to do with social pressure than a general lack of interest in hardcore gaming.
Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:51:RollinThundr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:08:How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Draugr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 15:30:Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:
If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.
If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.
Which is what makes this thread so amusing.
In a depressing way. :S
Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.
Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.
http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2
But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.
RollinThundr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:08:How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Draugr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 15:30:Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:
If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.
If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.
Which is what makes this thread so amusing.
In a depressing way. :S
Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.
Draugr wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 15:30:Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:
If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.
If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.
Which is what makes this thread so amusing.
In a depressing way. :S
Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:
If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.
Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.
Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 02:01:
I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.
Overon wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 13:06:
Game makers can do what they want, but if they want to appeal to women, half the population, then they can do far better than they are doing now.
Games are misogynistic overall. They perpetuate stereotypes more often than not, and don't challenge people's fixed beliefs in general. Games can be more than what they are now. Books can be controversial, they can challenge people's fixed beliefs and so far, games have not been generally able to do this.
Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.