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Op Ed

NYTimes.com - Game Theory- Making Room for the Women.
Unfortunately this rise in so-called casual play has upset some of those who see themselves as guardians of the true flame. There’s been a definite backlash against the idea that women are entering the hallowed citadel, dropping in a few scatter cushions and ending all the fun. Particular ire is reserved for anyone who dares to point out that female characters in games are often unsupported in the bra region for no apparent reason; given boring, bland supporting roles; and totally absent.

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57 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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37. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 11:04 Beamer
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 12:49:
No one ever talks about modifying football to make it appeal more to women.

Do you... not watch football?
I'm genuinely confused, because back in the 80s they made a very strong push to appeal to women. We have female sideline personalities, we have teams wearing all pink for breast cancer at least one game a year, we have a significantly reduced focus on cheerleaders, etc.
 
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36. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 10:02 Bludd
 
Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.  
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35. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 06:01 InBlack
 
Why would women mind being depicted as feminine, smart, super strong and very sexy in video games??

I mean men are already depicted as macho, smart, super strong and sexy in video games....

Both are stereotypes, so what gives??? Stereotypes sell what the audience want to see, it was that way since they put up the hollywood letters on that hill and its that way now and it will be that way until the human race renders itself genderless. So basically never. Wow there are sterotypes in the media culture. OH NOES MY GOD THE WORLD REALLY HAS ENDED IN 2012...
 
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I have a nifty blue line!
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34. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 05:07 Julio
 
I don't really care if women want to play videogames, nothing wrong with that since gaming has traditionally been a sausagefest. That being said, there's no need to take all the male oriented content out of games to make them neutered.

There's plenty of idiots online, I'm sure there's plenty of men who get lots of negative comments, just like the women mentioned in the article. For some reason, the men seem to be able to take it, even though its not right.

If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.
 
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33. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 05:04 Prez
 
What a stupid, STUPID article! The author is utterly clueless. This HAS to be a case of trolling for hits during the slow post-Xmas period - no one could unintentionally write an article this obnoxious, biased and wrong, could they? Though I have to admit reading some of the hysterically funny responses in this thread almost made this execrable piece of shit article worth it. Almost.  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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32. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 02:07 Bhruic
 
Women. You must have heard of them. They’re like real gamers, only with little hands and silly, squeaky voices and constant gripes about being marginalized and hypersexualized and threatened with rape in online multiplayer settings.

Maybe if you're going to write an article about negative reactions to women in gaming, you might not want to start it off with the stereotypical "gamers are guys who can't get dates and live in their parents' basement". When you start off so obviously biased, it's hard to take anything else you say seriously.
 
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31. Re: Op Ed Dec 27, 2012, 02:01 Overon
 
Slashman wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 21:29:
You know what I find funny?

In all these articles, people are only ever referencing Halo, COD or Gears of War.

I've yet to see complaints of sexism in reference to Civilization, Skyrim, Fallout, Homeworld, Portal, Torchlight 2, Sword of the Stars or any game that's deeper than the latest fragfest.

If you're trying to run with a crowd made up almost entirely of teenaged/pre-pubescent boys who have just discovered the anonymity of the internet, what exactly are you expecting?

I've been in the forums and in communities for countless games where I've never seen any of that. And guess what? I've seen almost no women trying to be part of those communities.

It's like going to a strip club and complaining that the patrons aren't shocked and appalled to find women with no clothes on dancing on stage.

I've run LAN parties and tournaments where women were invited and welcomed to participate. And I sure as hell would have kicked out anyone who got out of line. You know what? Most women just aren't interested in playing hardcore games(sexist content or not). Not a one ever experessed an interest in Starcraft, C&C Generals, Unreal Tournament or any games that were being played. Not even when encouraged by their boyfriends or husbands.

On the other hand, I've lost count of the number of times some woman gets a hint that I'm a computer tech and wants me to help her get The Sims to work on her computer.

I'm tired of people setting up these stupid arguments. 'Boohoo, the Halo crowd are a bunch of jerks.' Well yeah, have you tried playing something else? Is every gaming community made up of immature jerks?

There are countless games out there that are just that: Great games. Seems like no one is interested in talking about those though.
I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.
 
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30. Re: Op Ed Dec 26, 2012, 21:29 Slashman
 
You know what I find funny?

In all these articles, people are only ever referencing Halo, COD or Gears of War.

I've yet to see complaints of sexism in reference to Civilization, Skyrim, Fallout, Homeworld, Portal, Torchlight 2, Sword of the Stars or any game that's deeper than the latest fragfest.

If you're trying to run with a crowd made up almost entirely of teenaged/pre-pubescent boys who have just discovered the anonymity of the internet, what exactly are you expecting?

I've been in the forums and in communities for countless games where I've never seen any of that. And guess what? I've seen almost no women trying to be part of those communities.

It's like going to a strip club and complaining that the patrons aren't shocked and appalled to find women with no clothes on dancing on stage.

I've run LAN parties and tournaments where women were invited and welcomed to participate. And I sure as hell would have kicked out anyone who got out of line. You know what? Most women just aren't interested in playing hardcore games(sexist content or not). Not a one ever experessed an interest in Starcraft, C&C Generals, Unreal Tournament or any games that were being played. Not even when encouraged by their boyfriends or husbands.

On the other hand, I've lost count of the number of times some woman gets a hint that I'm a computer tech and wants me to help her get The Sims to work on her computer.

I'm tired of people setting up these stupid arguments. 'Boohoo, the Halo crowd are a bunch of jerks.' Well yeah, have you tried playing something else? Is every gaming community made up of immature jerks?

There are countless games out there that are just that: Great games. Seems like no one is interested in talking about those though.
 
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29. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 21:29 nin
 
cappy wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 20:50:
RollinThundr wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 20:13:
Cutter wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 17:08:
SlimRam wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 16:55:
*Jumps off my soapbox and yells at my woman, "MAKE ME A SAMMICH!!"

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

You mean Japan right?

It was the Germans. It says so right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI


Just watched that again a few weeks ago.

 
http://store.nin.com/index.php?cPath=10
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28. Re: Op Ed Dec 26, 2012, 20:50 Overon
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 20:05:
Overon wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 15:40:
I don't know what you mean when you say what video games are "meant to be." They are meant to be whatever the developer/publisher want them to be. There are many types of books, some of them are written not to challenge fixed beliefs nor to buck stereotypes. But there are other books that do. Are books "sociological reform platoforms?" As long as media (games included) promote ideas, they are open to criticism of those ideas. You seem to want to carve out video games as the only media that shouldn't challenge stereotypes and fixed beliefs. I disagree with that.

Actually, video games are whatever the consumer wants them to be. A publisher can "publish" whatever they want, but only the consumers determine what is successful (despite all of the publishers' efforts to the contrary...). The vast majority of works of literature that "challenged" beliefs were complete commercial failures. The stereotype of the starving artist was invented for a reason. Most works we would look back on as "ground-breaking" were generally either unknown in their own time or very poorly received (see William Blake). Those that were commercially successful were almost always those that hid their challenges under layers of meaning. We only recognize them today because our culture has evolved to be closer to what those earlier authors and artists were advocating for. The folks that "challenged" in the opposite direction from what we believe today have faded into obscurity (see Rudyard Kipling).

Heck, perhaps the greatest stereotype and fixed belief of the day IS to "challenge" the beliefs of everyone (or at least the beliefs that you don't agree with... somehow I doubt you'd be promoting a game that had you kill off AIDS patients because their disease makes them less than human, etc.). What gamers actually care about are games that are enjoyable. If your game is not fun (or too preachy... which tends to suck the fun right out), then no matter what your great "ideal" is... the game is a failure. If you can sneak some moral or idea in... great.. so long as it doesn't detract from the fun.

Preachy books and preachy art tend to fail (outside the elitists who get their sense of self-worth by supposedly seeing what the great unwashed masses can't see), too. So how about advocating for fun games first, as there are enough difficulties for publishers to actually make one of those... without the great diversity checklist in addition...
I'm hardly advocating what you say I am advocating. I don't know if you realize this but, every piece of media has underpinnings of ideas. Why is it bad for me to advocate for more diverse ideas? I'm not looking for checkboxes or quotas. I'm looking for dissent and some degree of unique incite or expressing unpopular opinions (ones I may not even share) and some degree of novelty.

This comment was edited on Dec 27, 2012, 01:58.
 
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27. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 20:50 cappy
 
RollinThundr wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 20:13:
Cutter wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 17:08:
SlimRam wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 16:55:
*Jumps off my soapbox and yells at my woman, "MAKE ME A SAMMICH!!"

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

You mean Japan right?

It was the Germans. It says so right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI
 
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26. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 20:13 RollinThundr
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 17:08:
SlimRam wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 16:55:
*Jumps off my soapbox and yells at my woman, "MAKE ME A SAMMICH!!"

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

You mean Japan right?
 
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25. Re: Op Ed Dec 26, 2012, 20:05 Eirikrautha
 
Overon wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 15:40:
I don't know what you mean when you say what video games are "meant to be." They are meant to be whatever the developer/publisher want them to be. There are many types of books, some of them are written not to challenge fixed beliefs nor to buck stereotypes. But there are other books that do. Are books "sociological reform platoforms?" As long as media (games included) promote ideas, they are open to criticism of those ideas. You seem to want to carve out video games as the only media that shouldn't challenge stereotypes and fixed beliefs. I disagree with that.

Actually, video games are whatever the consumer wants them to be. A publisher can "publish" whatever they want, but only the consumers determine what is successful (despite all of the publishers' efforts to the contrary...). The vast majority of works of literature that "challenged" beliefs were complete commercial failures. The stereotype of the starving artist was invented for a reason. Most works we would look back on as "ground-breaking" were generally either unknown in their own time or very poorly received (see William Blake). Those that were commercially successful were almost always those that hid their challenges under layers of meaning. We only recognize them today because our culture has evolved to be closer to what those earlier authors and artists were advocating for. The folks that "challenged" in the opposite direction from what we believe today have faded into obscurity (see Rudyard Kipling).

Heck, perhaps the greatest stereotype and fixed belief of the day IS to "challenge" the beliefs of everyone (or at least the beliefs that you don't agree with... somehow I doubt you'd be promoting a game that had you kill off AIDS patients because their disease makes them less than human, etc.). What gamers actually care about are games that are enjoyable. If your game is not fun (or too preachy... which tends to suck the fun right out), then no matter what your great "ideal" is... the game is a failure. If you can sneak some moral or idea in... great.. so long as it doesn't detract from the fun.

Preachy books and preachy art tend to fail (outside the elitists who get their sense of self-worth by supposedly seeing what the great unwashed masses can't see), too. So how about advocating for fun games first, as there are enough difficulties for publishers to actually make one of those... without the great diversity checklist in addition...
 
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24. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 19:41 Draugr
 
Yosemite Sam wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 18:52:
Heh silly woman, you know the term 'rape' isnt what you think it is, of course if you were a real gamer you would know that...

Klassy!

I find it interesting that theres always the complaint about how women in games are always unrealistically depicted as these super sexy barbie types... because everyone knows all men are super muscular rock hard Mr universes right? The unrealistic over the top representation of people swings both ways sister, get over yourself.

This is what's known as a false equivalency. A Male power fantasy and a male sexual fantasy aren't really the same thing.
Certainly not all games are guilty of this of course, but it is common.

 
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23. Re: Op Ed Dec 26, 2012, 19:12 jdreyer
 
Novels are a poor analogy due to cost. With a much lower cost to produce you get a much wider variety of novel types and much more experimentation. We have seen some of this with the emerging indie game movement, but it is still very nascent. Movies are closer but still imperfect, as they appeal more equally to both sexes. Games simply appeal more to males. Games are mostly about competition, whether against the AI or against other people. While both men and women are competitive, studies have shown that men are competitive all of the time. Women are only competitive when something is at stake. When something appeals more to men, designers will make it cater to that market.

All that being said, it seems to me lots of games have made strides to be less sexist and appeal more to women. Many games let you play as women, and female NPCs are drawn in a more complex manner. And when sexist events happen in the industry the perps are called out. I have seen much progress in my 25 or so years in gaming and expect it to continue.
 
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22. Re: Op Ed Dec 26, 2012, 19:09 Draugr
 
Kobalt wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 16:42:
Draugr wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 14:50:
For example, in fantasy settings racism or xenophobia is an often explored subject. I would say DA2, had it not been a total clusterfuck, would have fallen into this Category. Skyrim goes into this as well. Obviously we'd be foolish to leave out the Witcher 2. I think the first bioshock should also be on this list, though I would certainly put any themes it has into the 'clumsy' category.

Racism is probably one of the worst things done in video games. Sure you might have the odd fantasy game have something about racism is bad it is 100% nullified by the fact that..in these game there are races that are bad stereotypes. Blood thirsty savages that can never be smart as the hero. A cowardly gold hoarding race. Sound familiar to anyone? They are in most fantasy games. Perfectly ok in the video game world.


Well yes, it's not always explored in a meaningful way, or at all. But some try and succeed. Video games still suffer from bad writing as a general rule.
I agree, I *think* it's fair to say that some of the traditional fantasy tropes may have been influenced by racism. Though obviously there are those that would disagree just as there are those that would disagree with the current subject of discussion even being a real issue.

I for one think racism as a theme in the Witcher is handled very well, but as I said it's more the exception.
 
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21. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 18:52 Yosemite Sam
 
Heh silly woman, you know the term 'rape' isnt what you think it is, of course if you were a real gamer you would know that... and I find it interesting that theres always the complaint about how women in games are always unrealistically depicted as these super sexy barbie types... because everyone knows all men are super muscular rock hard Mr universes right? The unrealistic over the top representation of people swings both ways sister, get over yourself.

 
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CIV4 MOD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326525
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20. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 17:08 Cutter
 
SlimRam wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 16:55:
*Jumps off my soapbox and yells at my woman, "MAKE ME A SAMMICH!!"

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
 
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"Bye weeks? Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye weeks, and now he's dead… Well, maybe they're a good thing." - Moe
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19. Re: STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 17:03 The Half Elf
 
um..... amen?  
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"I've never seen a feature like this before. It warms your ass. It's wonderful" -Walter Bishop
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18. STOP THE MADNESS!!! Dec 26, 2012, 16:55 SlimRam
 
no No NO!!!! JUST when you think MEN can have SOMETHING for themselves.... here comes the hairy-legged feminatzis lesbian brigade to DUMP ALL OVER anything a man can possibly enjoy! WILL SOMEONE PLEASE tell me what-the-HELL happened to men being MEN DAMMIT! If I want a goddamn game with hot chicks with huge jugs and chainsaws and shotguns and midgets and farm animals, it's my fucking PEROGATIVE!

*Pounding on the table* Gentlemen! Do we WANT to play some kind of namby-pamby girls game like 'Super Tampon Simulator with Flowers and Ponies' HELL NO!!! I want FEET of BLOOD, enough violence to make Satan say, "OH SHIT!" Enough naked female flesh to make Larry Flint say, "Oh the HUMANITY".

I will GLADLY accept the title of 'Knuckle Dragging Neanderthal' as long as I have a piece of ass in one hand and a shotgun in the other! HELL, WHO SAID WOMEN COULD COME OUT OF THE KITCHEN ANYWAY?!?! Certainly NOT ME and if you piss while standing (or falling off the side of someone porch like this past Christmas for myself) then CERTAINLY NOT YOU REAL MEN EITHER!

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!?!?

*Jumps off my soapbox and yells at my woman, "MAKE ME A SAMMICH!!"
 
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I saw a hearse driving in the carpool lane the other day and I thought to myself, "That's cheating"
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