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25. Re: SSDs Dec 20, 2012, 03:04 eRe4s3r
 
Verno wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 13:24:
NegaDeath wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 12:56:
Verno wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 11:56:
Haswell is allegedly %50 faster than Ivy Bridge

I thought they walked that back to 12-20%, I'd be surprised if they hit anything higher.

The most recent stuff I've read pegs it around at least 10% so that's close to your recollection. Unfortunately it seems to only have some minor architecture improvements, faster on-die GPU and reduced CPU TDP (but increased GPU TDP). I was planning on waiting for Haswell but these reports made it sound like it wasn't worth the wait. Frankly I'm glad I didn't wait as jumping from an OC'd Yorkfield to a stock clock Ivy Bridge has literally doubled FPS in Guild Wars 2, among other things.

Yeah exactly, reading more into this says Haswell will be quite a minor jump overall. I'm definitely going to wait and see on it.

Never trust benchmarks before release..

I would be actually shocked if 12%-20% is the actual performance. Because if not a doubling of performance they would have done some insane error in their design. There is no way to double the flops per hz/core and not get twice the performance out of it. Unless the cpu clocks much lower than an I7.

Haswell has twice as high flops per hz per core than the I7
That means it must be twice as fast (in a fully threaded scenario)
Hence why everyone throws around a doubling of linpack performance. There is no way the CPU will only be 15% or some such faster (at same clock) than an I7, if it is, then something is very broken. ^^
 
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24. Re: SSDs Dec 20, 2012, 02:46 eRe4s3r
 
The difference between I7 and I5 is that the I5 does not have hyperthreading. That means 1 thread = 1 core. (Which is great for gaming, terrible for anything else.. you know, compiling, rendering.. that kind of everything else ;P)

But apart that, the I5 is superior to all AMD CPU's because it can go up to 4ghz if cooled properly. And thus in games that are 1-core or 2-core bound that makes all the difference in the world.

If you want to use multiple threaded applications (more than 4) you need an I7 - but if you don't then a I5 is by FAR the best performance for your buck you can get. Especially with a good mobo that has SATA3

As for the SSD linked, that's a terrible chcoice, I got a 512GB Samsung 830 SSD and that is the lowest I would go for a system partition. Already it's at 250gb used. And that's just because of few games I have on there, the OS, and my 3D-Apps.
 
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23. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 15:50 Creston
 
Verno wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 13:18:
Creston wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 12:00:
I set my pagefile to a non-SSD drive. An SSD has a finite lifespan of writes. Having that stupid pagefile write random crap to my SSD continuously does not sound like a great idea.

Nah that's an old misconception, you will never hit the write limitations on nand, especially with write amplification on modern controllers. It is far more likely (probably by a factor of 100) that the controller would die first. You would need to be writing terabytes a day to do so and it would still take years. A pagefile is nothing, it would be common use activity anyway.

Hmm, alright. I'll have to read up on that.

You often don't "need" a pagefile since Windows is pretty good about freeing up memory but its rogue applications (frequently games) that will cause problems if you don't have one. It's also advantageous in many scenarios to have one (sustained reads out of cache, etc). I'd much sooner loser hibernation than pagefiles, with Windows it still makes a lot of sense, those silly tweak guides be damned.

Microsoft could long since have just redirected the pagefile to actual memory. That way old stuff still thinks there's a pagefile while in reality it's just using the real stuff, and you don't sit around waiting for your platter to keep chugging. (though I guess with an SSD that's not really an issue anymore.)

Creston
 
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22. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 13:34 wtf_man
 
Yeah, 10% - 12% sounds more reasonable.

I bet the original 50% was marketing idiot claims for the potential 6 cores of Haswell (in the i7 line?) that will be most likely coming out, and cheaper than Sandy Bridge-E.
 
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21. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 13:24 Verno
 
NegaDeath wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 12:56:
Verno wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 11:56:
Haswell is allegedly %50 faster than Ivy Bridge

I thought they walked that back to 12-20%, I'd be surprised if they hit anything higher.

The most recent stuff I've read pegs it around at least 10% so that's close to your recollection. Unfortunately it seems to only have some minor architecture improvements, faster on-die GPU and reduced CPU TDP (but increased GPU TDP). I was planning on waiting for Haswell but these reports made it sound like it wasn't worth the wait. Frankly I'm glad I didn't wait as jumping from an OC'd Yorkfield to a stock clock Ivy Bridge has literally doubled FPS in Guild Wars 2, among other things.

Yeah exactly, reading more into this says Haswell will be quite a minor jump overall. I'm definitely going to wait and see on it.
 
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20. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 13:18 Verno
 
Creston wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 12:00:
I set my pagefile to a non-SSD drive. An SSD has a finite lifespan of writes. Having that stupid pagefile write random crap to my SSD continuously does not sound like a great idea.

Nah that's an old misconception, you will never hit the write limitations on nand, especially with write amplification on modern controllers. It is far more likely (probably by a factor of 100) that the controller would die first. You would need to be writing terabytes a day to do so and it would still take years. A pagefile is nothing, it would be common use activity anyway.

(quite frankly, I fail to see why Windows still even has one. Memory outpaced Window's requirements for it really since the middle days of XP. There is no need for a pagefile anymore.

You often don't "need" a pagefile since Windows is pretty good about freeing up memory but its rogue applications (frequently games) that will cause problems if you don't have one. It's also advantageous in many scenarios to have one (sustained reads out of cache, etc). I'd much sooner loser hibernation than pagefiles, with Windows it still makes a lot of sense, those silly tweak guides be damned.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2012, 13:23.
 
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19. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 12:56 NegaDeath
 
Verno wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 11:56:
Haswell is allegedly %50 faster than Ivy Bridge

I thought they walked that back to 12-20%, I'd be surprised if they hit anything higher.

The most recent stuff I've read pegs it around at least 10% so that's close to your recollection. Unfortunately it seems to only have some minor architecture improvements, faster on-die GPU and reduced CPU TDP (but increased GPU TDP). I was planning on waiting for Haswell but these reports made it sound like it wasn't worth the wait. Frankly I'm glad I didn't wait as jumping from an OC'd Yorkfield to a stock clock Ivy Bridge has literally doubled FPS in Guild Wars 2, among other things.
 
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18. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 12:04 Creston
 
{PH}88fingers wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:33:
I don't use traditional hard drive anymore, I just carry an external 1TB usb 3.0 drive for my movies/music and call it a day.

The speed from having windows/all programs and games on the ssd is amazing!
My only problem is my gaming ADD which has me with way too many games on the go so my 240GB is with 45gb free only.
Makes me think about getting 2 of them and putting them in raid-0

Two things of note :

TRIM enabled SSDs do a good job of cleaning up after themselves, so the old days of losing performance due to the drive getting full are long gone, but even so, an SSD still performs better when it has ~30% of its space free (because it has space to move stuff around while trimming and doing garbage collection.)

So I would recommend keeping a little more free space on it.

The other thing is that other than the latest Intel SSDs (the brand new ones that came out like a month ago) and the latest intel motherboard, SSDs in RAID do NOT support TRIM. Which means it'll be lightning fast for awhile, and then suddenly your performance is going to crater.

Creston
 
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17. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 12:00 Creston
 
I set my pagefile to a non-SSD drive. An SSD has a finite lifespan of writes. Having that stupid pagefile write random crap to my SSD continuously does not sound like a great idea.

(quite frankly, I fail to see why Windows still even has one. Memory outpaced Window's requirements for it really since the middle days of XP. There is no need for a pagefile anymore.)

Creston
 
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16. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 11:56 Verno
 
InBlack wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 03:33:
Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K
ASUS P4(something or other) -> AROCK Z77 Extreme3 MB
4GB DDR2 1333 -> 16GB DDR3 1333 Mushkin Silverline (Ram is cheap!)
Seagate 250Gb Drive (oldest part of my old rig) -> 1TB WDCaviarBlack
Intel 330SSD 60GB (Win7 boot partition actually swallowed nearly 40Gigs what the fuck?!)
ATI Radeon HD 6870 -> ATI Radeon HD 6870

Thanks to everyone who helped out Im pretty satisfied with everything...

Windows 7 + updates balloons to nearly 25-30 gigs just by itself. You have 16GB of memory so your pagefile and hibernation files are probably large. You can turn off hibernation if you don't care and always shut down but don't disable pagefiles. It's one of those stupid tips you see in those absolutely moronic "windows tweak guides" that also have you disabling services that are load on demand. Small, frequent reads and writes are what SSDs excel at and that's what paging is for. Keep like a 4GB one to be safe or just let Windows manage it.

Also when you run the Windows Experience Score thing it automatically applies most of the SSD specific tweaks so do that if you haven't already.

Haswell is allegedly %50 faster than Ivy Bridge

I thought they walked that back to 12-20%, I'd be surprised if they hit anything higher.
 
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15. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 10:25 wtf_man
 
No problem.

And btw... that E5200 is a Wolfdale, so it is the same generation as the Q8200... but only a dual core, but slightly more clock speed (2.5GHz vs. 2.33GHz).

Technically that E5200 should be faster for single threaded applications, which most games are, up until recently.
 
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14. Intel CPUs. Dec 19, 2012, 10:07 Ant
 
Ah thanks, guys. Sheesh, too many code names and models! Argh!  
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13. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 wtf_man
 
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:33:
Um, isn't Q8400 newer than i5? My old home's Q8200 beats my office's i5 (E5200 I think?).

You have your processor generations mixed up, my friend.

Pentium 4
Core - (Laptops only and 32-bit. Enhanced Pentium M)
Conroe - Core 2 Duo
Allendale, Kentsfield - Core 2 Duo , Core 2 Quad
Wolfdale, Yorkfield - Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad (Q8400 is here)
Lynnfield, Bloomfield, Clarkdale, Gulftown - First i5 and i7, 45nm and 32nm versions
Sandy Bridge - 2nd gen i3, i5, and i7
Ivy Bridge - 22nm version of 2nd gen i3, i5, and i7 (i5 3570k here)
Haswell - Next gen processor, not released yet
Broadwell - Die shrink of Haswell, way not released yet!

EDIT: After your other post... i3's are entry level and dual core, i5's are mainstream and quad core, and I7's are "performance" and still quad cores. Needless to say you don't get much extra bang with an i7 so the i5 3570k is the best bang for your buck at this time.

I hope that helps.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2012, 10:05.
 
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12. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 09:56 Beamer
 
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:52:
Beamer wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:40:
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:33:
dj LiTh wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:48:
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:11:
InBlack wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 03:33:
Well I just bought one yesterday

It wasnt cheap. But then again most prices here in Europe are at least 30-50% more inflated than anything you can find in the US.

Still the difference is...amazing. Upgrade change:

Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K
ASUS P4(something or other) -> AROCK Z77 Extreme3 MB
4GB DDR2 1333 -> 16GB DDR3 1333 Mushkin Silverline (Ram is cheap!)
Seagate 250Gb Drive (oldest part of my old rig) -> 1TB WDCaviarBlack
Intel 330SSD 60GB (Win7 boot partition actually swallowed nearly 40Gigs what the fuck?!)
ATI Radeon HD 6870 -> ATI Radeon HD 6870

Thanks to everyone who helped out Im pretty satisfied with everything...
Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K ??? You downgraded your CPU?

Really? You think going from yorkfield to ivybridge is a downgrade?
Um, isn't Q8400 newer than i5? My old home's Q8200 beats my office's i5 (E5200 I think?).

Ha, you must be an AMD guy?
It's like asking if a 486 is newer than a Pentium. While I'd guess your office may have a slower, crappier i5, as a whole the line is newer and much better than the Core2Quad line.
Nope. I haven't had an AMD CPU since its 939 X2 dual core CPU. After that, back to Intel since their CPUs got better. Interesting. I thouht i5 would stop being made for being old. What about an i7? Still faster than i5 and QXXXX?

It depends. For many things the i5 is faster. The i7 is raw power, but the i5 often offers better speed. It can be like the difference between torque and horsepower.

But the current Intel lineup is the i3, i5 and i7. Those replaced the Core2Duo and Core2Quad.
 
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11. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 09:52 Ant
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:40:
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:33:
dj LiTh wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:48:
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:11:
InBlack wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 03:33:
Well I just bought one yesterday

It wasnt cheap. But then again most prices here in Europe are at least 30-50% more inflated than anything you can find in the US.

Still the difference is...amazing. Upgrade change:

Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K
ASUS P4(something or other) -> AROCK Z77 Extreme3 MB
4GB DDR2 1333 -> 16GB DDR3 1333 Mushkin Silverline (Ram is cheap!)
Seagate 250Gb Drive (oldest part of my old rig) -> 1TB WDCaviarBlack
Intel 330SSD 60GB (Win7 boot partition actually swallowed nearly 40Gigs what the fuck?!)
ATI Radeon HD 6870 -> ATI Radeon HD 6870

Thanks to everyone who helped out Im pretty satisfied with everything...
Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K ??? You downgraded your CPU?

Really? You think going from yorkfield to ivybridge is a downgrade?
Um, isn't Q8400 newer than i5? My old home's Q8200 beats my office's i5 (E5200 I think?).

Ha, you must be an AMD guy?
It's like asking if a 486 is newer than a Pentium. While I'd guess your office may have a slower, crappier i5, as a whole the line is newer and much better than the Core2Quad line.
Nope. I haven't had an AMD CPU since its 939 X2 dual core CPU. After that, back to Intel since their CPUs got better. Interesting. I thouht i5 would stop being made for being old. What about an i7? Still faster than i5 and QXXXX?
 
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10. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 09:40 Beamer
 
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 09:33:
dj LiTh wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:48:
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:11:
InBlack wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 03:33:
Well I just bought one yesterday

It wasnt cheap. But then again most prices here in Europe are at least 30-50% more inflated than anything you can find in the US.

Still the difference is...amazing. Upgrade change:

Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K
ASUS P4(something or other) -> AROCK Z77 Extreme3 MB
4GB DDR2 1333 -> 16GB DDR3 1333 Mushkin Silverline (Ram is cheap!)
Seagate 250Gb Drive (oldest part of my old rig) -> 1TB WDCaviarBlack
Intel 330SSD 60GB (Win7 boot partition actually swallowed nearly 40Gigs what the fuck?!)
ATI Radeon HD 6870 -> ATI Radeon HD 6870

Thanks to everyone who helped out Im pretty satisfied with everything...
Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K ??? You downgraded your CPU?

Really? You think going from yorkfield to ivybridge is a downgrade?
Um, isn't Q8400 newer than i5? My old home's Q8200 beats my office's i5 (E5200 I think?).

Ha, you must be an AMD guy?
It's like asking if a 486 is newer than a Pentium. While I'd guess your office may have a slower, crappier i5, as a whole the line is newer and much better than the Core2Quad line.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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9. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 09:33 Ant
 
dj LiTh wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:48:
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:11:
InBlack wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 03:33:
Well I just bought one yesterday

It wasnt cheap. But then again most prices here in Europe are at least 30-50% more inflated than anything you can find in the US.

Still the difference is...amazing. Upgrade change:

Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K
ASUS P4(something or other) -> AROCK Z77 Extreme3 MB
4GB DDR2 1333 -> 16GB DDR3 1333 Mushkin Silverline (Ram is cheap!)
Seagate 250Gb Drive (oldest part of my old rig) -> 1TB WDCaviarBlack
Intel 330SSD 60GB (Win7 boot partition actually swallowed nearly 40Gigs what the fuck?!)
ATI Radeon HD 6870 -> ATI Radeon HD 6870

Thanks to everyone who helped out Im pretty satisfied with everything...
Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K ??? You downgraded your CPU?

Really? You think going from yorkfield to ivybridge is a downgrade?
Um, isn't Q8400 newer than i5? My old home's Q8200 beats my office's i5 (E5200 I think?).
 
Avatar 1957
 
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8. Re: Evening Tech Bits Dec 19, 2012, 09:29 wtf_man
 
Same clock speed , single thread, Yorkfield to Ivy Bridge is about a %30 boost.

Cache has little to do with it... it's the more efficient architecture.

Haswell is allegedly %50 faster than Ivy Bridge... we'll see. Somehow I doubt that... as far as same clock / single thread goes. Throwing in a couple of more cores and benching multi-threaded apps doesn't count... that's marketing BS.
 
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7. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 09:14 InBlack
 
Dont know how that could be a downgrade...maybe Ant was making a joke and I just failed somehow...

The architecture difference notwithstanding, the i5 runs at 3.4 stock, whereas the Q8400 is 3,01 (overclocked)...and I think the i5 has much more cash as well....

Still the difference in CPU intensive apps and games is night and day, Im seeing a 100% boost in MWO alone, with no hicckups or drops of FPS into the teens at all...
 
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6. Re: SSDs Dec 19, 2012, 08:48 dj LiTh
 
Ant wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 08:11:
InBlack wrote on Dec 19, 2012, 03:33:
Well I just bought one yesterday

It wasnt cheap. But then again most prices here in Europe are at least 30-50% more inflated than anything you can find in the US.

Still the difference is...amazing. Upgrade change:

Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K
ASUS P4(something or other) -> AROCK Z77 Extreme3 MB
4GB DDR2 1333 -> 16GB DDR3 1333 Mushkin Silverline (Ram is cheap!)
Seagate 250Gb Drive (oldest part of my old rig) -> 1TB WDCaviarBlack
Intel 330SSD 60GB (Win7 boot partition actually swallowed nearly 40Gigs what the fuck?!)
ATI Radeon HD 6870 -> ATI Radeon HD 6870

Thanks to everyone who helped out Im pretty satisfied with everything...
Core2Quad Q8400 -> i5 3570K ??? You downgraded your CPU?

Really? You think going from yorkfield to ivybridge is a downgrade?
 
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