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Op Ed

Gamasutra - The Burning of Star Wars: The Old Republic.
BioWare plainly went the wrong way with SWTOR. You don't have to go any further than the comments about how special and important subscribers are and how BioWare wants subscribers to feel special, even in the F2P environment. F2P is clearly just a demo; it's just that BioWare is changing the limit from "level cap 15" (the old trial, which also doesn't work) and instead applying every form of hindrance and impairment it can come up with, putting the Handicapper Generals to shame.

One has to question whether this makes any sense at all. The game was failing because people didn't want to pay for subscriptions. The choice was paying subscriptions or not playing at all, and people were choosing "not at all" over subs. How, then, does replacing "not at all" with "kneecapped" change things? How does that help net new subscribers, and how does that help keep existing subscribers?

Eurogamer.net - Are the rich old men ruining Kickstarter?
None of this has sat well with me. Maybe these rich old men can't afford to fund the development of their dream projects out of their own pocket - I don't know - but if they can't convince publishers and actual investors to fund them then I think they have to look at themselves and ask why, not look to us. Not to pick on Peter Molyneux, but I can think of plenty of reasons why no publisher or investor would bankroll one of his games without any kind of creative control, which is what 250k's worth of your money is currently promising to do.

To be fair, at least you can log in today. Perhaps the worst thing about this situation, however, is that it is confusing people about what Kickstarter actually represents. When I look at the names of these grandee developers, and I think back not just on the games they have produced but also the things they have said about them before release, my first reaction as a potential backer isn't to lick my lips at the concept artwork and drink in the product pitch - it's to consult the Kickstarter Terms of Use to see what recourse I might have if I end up disappointed for one reason or another.

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64 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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44. Re: Re: Dec 16, 2012, 00:57 Creston
 
wtf_man wrote on Dec 16, 2012, 00:34:
yonder wrote on Dec 16, 2012, 00:10:
2)I *WAS* pissed when a game I KS'd got a publisher. Wasteland 2 going to EA. That was announced very shortly after funding was finished. I seriously considered asking for my money back. Still pissed tho... but I do trust Brian Fargo.

Uh no. It's not being "published" by EA at all.

It is being made available to Origin's Store as an additional distribution platform. Steam will have it, as well as GOG, and their own site.

This. EA has no say whatsoever in the design or development or spending of ANYTHING with regards to Wasteland 2.

EA/Origin is merely offering to host kickstarted games for free for (I believe) three months. Obviously EA is still trying to weasel its way into a (small) slice of the pie, but for a kickstarted game it's a good deal. You need some kind of download client to be able to get your game out to your customers, and you can't really beat free.

I have no idea what kind of terms GOG and Steam offer for Kickstarted games.

Creston
 
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43. Re: Op Ed Dec 16, 2012, 00:53 Creston
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 21:45:
Things aren't getting crowded out yet, but they will at some point. So may as well nip it in the bud before it begins. It was like when Obsidian mentioned a publisher wanted them to do a KS on their behalf. What happens if all these corps start trying to do end runs around people buy using shell groups as a way to acquire money so they can experiment without any risk to themself? Or simply just blow the money on coke and hookers and say 'Sorry, it didn't work out.' IMO KS should be setting definite limits on who can use KS. That or set up some sort of category system.


Kickstarter isn't just for videogames, so any rules they'd put up would somehow have to make sense for all possible categories, which I can't really see happening.

I do agree, however, that we need to take great care that publishers don't try to fucking weasel their way in. Though if a developer lets themselves be used that way, I think they can probably forget whatever name they had. From that point on they'll just be called whores.

Creston
 
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42. Re: Op Ed Dec 16, 2012, 00:39 Prez
 
Orphic Resonance wrote on Dec 16, 2012, 00:31:

Get over yourself.

I have gotten over myself - years ago. I am SOOO over myself now. My stating that it was your opinion was not a self-evident decree; it was to contrast your original assertion that it was not an opinion but common sense. Again, you are just moving the goalposts in an effort to misrepresent what I was trying to say. I didn't know disagreeing with you would make you so testy, or I wouldn't have done it. Back when you were Space Captain it didn't.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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41. Re: Re: Dec 16, 2012, 00:34 wtf_man
 
yonder wrote on Dec 16, 2012, 00:10:
2)I *WAS* pissed when a game I KS'd got a publisher. Wasteland 2 going to EA. That was announced very shortly after funding was finished. I seriously considered asking for my money back. Still pissed tho... but I do trust Brian Fargo.

Uh no. It's not being "published" by EA at all.

It is being made available to Origin's Store as an additional distribution platform. Steam will have it, as well as GOG, and their own site.

If one is dumb enough to get it from other than GOG or their own site, then they deserve the included "DRM" (if you want to call it that) of wherever they chose to get it from.
 
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40. Re: Op Ed Dec 16, 2012, 00:31 Orphic Resonance
 
Prez wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 22:40:
Wow, that was totally logical and rational. "...something very real and binding should differentiate them from the complete no-name amateurs with zero funding and no prospects" is an opinion, not common sense. That has nothing to do with the basic difference between pro and amateur, and that is not the distinction you were making and you damn well know it.


Yeh thats like saying "purple is a color, and you know it!!"

Of course I know it. Its obvious and goes without saying.

Just saying "thats your opinion!!" is entirely and utterly meaningless. Of course its my opinion. What else would it be? My kingly decree? The law of the land?

Get over yourself.
 
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39. Re: Dec 16, 2012, 00:10 yonder
 
Creston:

1)On a personal level, my main issue with Molyneauxuseusooooo wasn't his complete inability to make reasonable promises. My issue was that he's independently wealthy enough to fund and publish a game of his own. He shouldn't *NEED* funding. He sold Bullfrog for 60 million and I'm uncertain of how much he got from Lionhead. I would honestly be very surprised if the amount that he's asking for is a significant amount for his wallet. I'm pretty darned sure that Double Fine and small studios like that aren't able to. Yes... rich people get that way by not wasting their money, but that's not applicable here. And you're smart enough not to retort with that.

2)I *WAS* pissed when a game I KS'd got a publisher. Wasteland 2 going to EA. That was announced very shortly after funding was finished. I seriously considered asking for my money back. Still pissed tho... but I do trust Brian Fargo.
 
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38. Re: Op Ed Dec 16, 2012, 00:03 Silicon Avatar
 
Just to throw this out there, I'd love to have another real Populous game. That thing was awesome. I'm just not that interested in Molyneux doing it. His later titles weren't that great and he sort of comes across as someone who has big ideas but lacks the discipline to do them (or manage a small group) himself.

I'd rather a dedicated fan (and competent developer) start a Kickstarter for a Populous clone with modern graphics.

 
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37. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 22:56 Prez
 
I also love how the article portrays devs like Schafer or Braben as millionaires. Game development is not going to make you rich unless you build a game by yourself and it sells millions of units. If you do contract work (as most developers do), you'll get paid during development and then you'll never see another penny after that unless the game is tremendously successful and the publisher didn't screw you with arbitrary royalty requirements (like minimum Metacritic scores)

I've always wondered about that. Other than those lucky early developers who saw a meteoric rise to fame at their companies like at Blizzard, id, Epic and Bioware I don't really get how any of these other guys could be millionaires except maybe through smart investing and luck.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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36. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 22:51 Jerykk
 
That Eurogamer article was pretty worthless. If publishers were interested in making the games that get funded on KS, then developers wouldn't need to use KS. The reality is that publishers are extremely risk averse and if they don't think a game will sell at least 3 million units, they probably aren't going to fund it. That's why niche genres like CRPGs and space sims haven't seen publisher support in years. KS provides a means for such neglected genres to get made without completely forsaking decent production values.

I also love how the article portrays devs like Schafer or Braben as millionaires. Game development is not going to make you rich unless you build a game by yourself and it sells millions of units. If you do contract work (as most developers do), you'll get paid during development and then you'll never see another penny after that unless the game is tremendously successful and the publisher didn't screw you with arbitrary royalty requirements (like minimum Metacritic scores).
 
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35. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 22:40 Prez
 
Orphic Resonance wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 22:10:
there is a difference between pro and amateur - thats basic common sense, not an opinion

otherwise they wouldnt be two different words with completely different meanings

disagree with it all you want.. it wont make your shit smell any better than mine

Wow, that was totally logical and rational. "...something very real and binding should differentiate them from the complete no-name amateurs with zero funding and no prospects" is an opinion, not common sense. That has nothing to do with the basic difference between pro and amateur, and that is not the distinction you were making and you damn well know it.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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34. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 22:10 Orphic Resonance
 
there is a difference between pro and amateur - thats basic common sense, not an opinion

otherwise they wouldnt be two different words with completely different meanings

disagree with it all you want.. it wont make your shit smell any better than mine
 
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33. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 22:08 Prez
 
thats just basic common sense

No, actually it's just an opinion. One I happen to strongly disagree with.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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32. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 22:05 Orphic Resonance
 
yeh i think there should be a limit as well, people who are proven designers with 10+ year careers, who live in million dollar homes, with access to 100 man teams of pro designers - they should have to kick in some matching funds or provide extra contracts, or something... something very real and binding should differentiate them from the complete no-name amateurs with zero funding and no prospects

thats just basic common sense

in fact, i wouldnt be surprised if kickstarter branches out into two different sites, "pro" and "amateur"

people who have years and years of industry experience shouldnt be able to reap the same benefits, they already have a distinct advantage
 
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31. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 21:56 Prez
 
Things aren't getting crowded out yet, but they will at some point. So may as well nip it in the bud before it begins.

How would you even do that without introducing arbitrary and stifling rules into a system that works and thrives largely because it resists doing exactly that? I disagree with you - let the public decide, and that's that.
 
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30. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 21:45 Cutter
 
Things aren't getting crowded out yet, but they will at some point. So may as well nip it in the bud before it begins. It was like when Obsidian mentioned a publisher wanted them to do a KS on their behalf. What happens if all these corps start trying to do end runs around people buy using shell groups as a way to acquire money so they can experiment without any risk to themself? Or simply just blow the money on coke and hookers and say 'Sorry, it didn't work out.' IMO KS should be setting definite limits on who can use KS. That or set up some sort of category system.

 
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James Woods: Oh that's fun. That sounds like you had a fun time. Where would I fit in with the fun time, huh? Where does James Woods fit into the fun?
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29. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 21:16 Creston
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 20:53:
Again, there's also the "spirit" of the thing. KS is supposed to be for people who have solid ideas but no money. Not for fat cats who can afford to fund their own stuff. Also, the more that happens, the more they'll crowd out - at least it'll be harder to draw attention - to the small guy for whom KS was intended. Fact is guys like Peter can easily afford this. Obsidian? Possibly but not as much. Plus Peter has a long history of massively over-hyping and under-delivering and it won't do as much for PC gamers as the projects we see for PE, W2, SRR. Those will help demonstrate that there is a market for those sorts of games which is better for us in the long run.


Despite everyone saying that the big guys are drowning out the little guys, there's really little evidence to show that that's true. Limit Theory more than made his funding (on his way to 200K now), even though the more well-known Elite kickstarter by a fat cat is running at the same time.

Whether something "should" be on Kickstarter is the kind of dialogue I find unnecessary, since such a decision can simply be made through every person choosing to fund it or not.

And apparently Peter blew all his cash on his new studio and that curiosity piece of shit, so he was tapped out. (whether that's true or not, I have no idea. That's what he said.)

Anyway, I agree that GODUS, even if funded, will just wind up another Moleyeneneeuux disappointment, and that it's far more interesting to see how things like Shadowrun, Wasteland and Project Eternity fare. If they sell well and become big successes, maybe the cuntsacks at the publisher offices will realize that there's money to be made there.

Nah, actually, they won't. They'll keep chasing the CoD dream until there's only one publisher left: The one making CoD. Which is a day that can't come soon enough for me. Bye publishers! Good luck finding a job that fit your parasitic talents!

Creston
 
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28. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 21:12 Veterator
 
SWTOR was a pretty bland game. The classes were not interesting. The combat was not interesting. Their PVP was an afterthought.

The whole companion thing sounded cool at first, until you realized it was like having a real awesome single player char when you had a companion and then you gave it up to join a group with others and be less effective due to the lack of that companion on-the-fly customization.

Voice work, really impressive for the first week maybe, then you start skipping it.

Voice work becomes quickly annoying the next time you play through and 95% of the quest dialog is exactly the same and you're skipping through the speech to get going faster.

Then you guess at what they spent on voicing all of that and getting those names attached to the game.........and you realize how much of a waste that was for what they ended up with gameplay wise and a lot of voice work you're only going to pay attention to one play through on each faction and class quests.



And.....overall the mechanics of the game were nothing new. MMOs are becoming really bad about sticking to a formula people are f-ing tired of. I want someone to go out on a ledge and add some SWG city building with some minecraft terrain modifications. For example, if there's a big ass ravine making travel take longer....I want to be able to build a bridge across it. Maybe not completely alone, but I would appreciate the ability to MODIFY the game in some meaningful way. At least some sort of free-form development. Not predestined build sites, so you can play on different servers and see different things.

 
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27. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 21:09 Creston
 
killer_roach wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 15:42:
Creston wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 14:18:
Dev wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 13:49:
Creston wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 13:46:
Let's look at it this way: Every game made through Kickstarter is a game for which those fucking parasitic roaches at publishers get ZERO FUCKING DOLLARS.
Aside from games that use kickstarter funds to make a pitch demo to get publisher funding. Or to show publishers that there's still interest so they fund more.

Fair enough. I'd never donate to projects like those, but I guess they are out there.

Creston

I know at least one project I backed ended up later securing publisher funding, but I wasn't deluding myself into thinking that the game would've been done on the budget that they were asking (they're still running betas, and have admitted that they ran out of their KS money months ago).

As long as they make it clear beforehand that that's what they're going to do, I have no problem with it. Like I said, I'd never back those, but I don't have any issue with those things being on Kickstarter.

I would be pissed, however, if a project I backed later got a fucking publisher. I would immediately demand a refund.

Creston
 
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26. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 21:04 ASeven
 
Creston wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 13:46:
I'm not sure that I'd go as far as to say that Molyneueeheueenex (and others) are ruining Kickstarter. (I'd be far more inclined to point the finger at guys like the Code Hero developer who no longer posted updates until someone accused him of just taking the money and running, and he finally remembered that he has an obligation to his backers to keep them up to date on what's happening.)

First off, from the looks of it, GODUS won't even make funding, in which case Peter and his promises will just go away again, and maybe he can make another retarded "curiosity" thing or something.

Second, I'm not really sure that there is such a need for everyone to keep worrying over the integrity or purpose of Kickstarter. Whether you feel that a guy like him is justified in using it or not can be easily expressed by your decision to either fund or not to fund. There doesn't need to be a grand dialogue every single time an established developer tries to cut out the publishers and wants to get a game made through crowd sourcing.

After all, where do we draw that line? Peter can't use it, but Obsidian can? Double Fine can? Where is really the difference, other than that Peter can never keep his stupid yap shut and always promises shit that he knows full well he can never deliver? (this may also more aptly be called: Lying.)

I have no problem with Molyeneneeyeususuxuxx using Kickstarter to try to get a game made that no publisher will touch with a ten foot pole. And his campaign has been well though out, with frequent updates and lots of information, unlike several others I have (frequently) mentioned. I just have no confidence that the game will be anything like what he promises, and I have no confidence that 450K GBP can make a game anywhere NEAR like what he thinks. Ergo, Latin, I don't give him any money.

It really doesn't need to be more than that, and all this handwringing over "Oh, won't someone think of the sanctity of Kickstarter!" is really kind of getting stale.

Let's look at it this way: Every game made through Kickstarter is a game for which those fucking parasitic roaches at publishers get ZERO FUCKING DOLLARS. In my opinion, we need hundreds of thousands more games like those. It's our best chance to finally make the publishers either die out, or at least maybe make them realize that the SHIT they've turned the gaming industry into isn't worth sustaining anymore. (And I say this knowing full well that we've just had an incredible year of games behind us.)

Anyway, deep thought mode off.

Creston


Number1
 
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25. Re: Op Ed Dec 15, 2012, 20:53 Cutter
 
Again, there's also the "spirit" of the thing. KS is supposed to be for people who have solid ideas but no money. Not for fat cats who can afford to fund their own stuff. Also, the more that happens, the more they'll crowd out - at least it'll be harder to draw attention - to the small guy for whom KS was intended. Fact is guys like Peter can easily afford this. Obsidian? Possibly but not as much. Plus Peter has a long history of massively over-hyping and under-delivering and it won't do as much for PC gamers as the projects we see for PE, W2, SRR. Those will help demonstrate that there is a market for those sorts of games which is better for us in the long run.

 
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James Woods: Oh that's fun. That sounds like you had a fun time. Where would I fit in with the fun time, huh? Where does James Woods fit into the fun?
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