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Out of the Blue

Just 10 more shopping days until Christmas! Where does the time go? (Answer: The Internet).

Shopping Links: Thanks Ant and Acleacius.
Play: Deep Sea Hunter.
Links: Driving The World's Only Official Street Legal Speed Racer Mach 5. Thanks Neutronbeam.
Stories: Man's Marriage Proposal, Plowed Into a Field, Has 150-Yard-Tall Typo.
Science: Could Climate Change Make Mars Suitable for Human Life? Thanks j.c.f.
Media: Mistletoe Kissing Prank.
Australian Hurdler (Michelle Jenneke) Is Back.
Honest Trailers - The Lord of the Rings. Thanks nin.

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45. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 14:54 Creston
 
An interesting aside to the "concealed carry" law is that in Oklahoma you can now carry openly. (ie, if you had a concealed carry permit, you can now carry the weapon out in plain sight.)

I'm curious to see what, if any, effect it'll have on crime / shootings etc. On the cuff of it, you'd expect the fact that you see someone carrying a gun would lead to fewer attempted crimes. But there's probably a thousand other effects that will happen.

With regards to the "Let's take all the guns away!" idea, that'll never happen. Even IF government passed that law (and NEITHER party wants anything to do with that, because it'd be political suicide), the large majority of the people who own guns aren't going to give them up. They will simply ignore the mandate to go turn your guns in. First off, even if they were going to turn them over, is the government going to reimburse them for it? Most of those weapons represent a substantial dollar value.

But secondly, who is going to enforce it? Is the police going to search everyone's home, top to bottom? Heh.

We need better security at schools. Tulsa Public Schools basically already have such security in place. It cost a lot of money, but I believe the large part of it was born by the parents in the TPS areas. I know if I was a parent, I'd gladly pay $50 or $100 bucks for my child's school to put proper security in place.

Of course, on the flip side, if the schools become too secure, the idiot gunmen will just go to a supermarket and start killing people there.

Creston
 
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44. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 12:20 Cutter
 
Shit, remember all the bruhaha with the NOPD after Katrina? Fucking insanely scary! Those guys were roving around like they were a parmilitary junta or the like stealing, shooting, etc. I've heard a ton of bad stuff about cops in PA as well.

 
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43. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 11:51 PHJF
 
But, you hear sirens and see lights? Pull over. That is what a reasonable person does. End of story.

That's the thing, people can't be expected to react "reasonably" around police anymore. Police have steadily gone from being respected, neighborly public servants to being menacing thugs. Is that a representative image of law enforcement as a whole? Of course not. But it's the only image many people see, an image enforced time and again by youtube videos and newspaper articles of unjustifiable overuse of (often deadly) force. The kicker is the overly zealous officers in these instances are seldom reported to get so much as a slap on the wrist. Matters are "looked into" and nothing. Ever. Happens.
 
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42. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 10:14 xXBatmanXx
 
PHJF wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 09:35:
You flee, you run from police, there is a pretty high chance you will be killed.

No, that's if you're running from terrible police. The firearm is not the goto law enforcement tool, it is the last resort. And if I'm ever in a position where police are chasing AND FIRING at me, I'm not going to stop and say, "hey, please stop shooting at me." Use of deadly force has long been a serious issue with the Cleveland PD and this last incident finally seems to be bringing the water to a boil.

And I think you know well enough I don't hate police. I just hate how low police officer standards have fallen. It's a thankless, often dangerous job, and it isn't attracting the quality of people such an important position deserves. I'm starting academy in January in Akron. I should hope if I get through and wind up on the streets the least I can do is not kill unarmed civilians.

None of us want to kill "unarmed civilians" but that is information found out later. The liability test falls somewhere in the area of "what would a reasonable person do" in the given situation.

I can't speak for Cleveland - in fact I can't speak for damn near any large city. They are to big and when you have thousands, literally THOUSANDS of cops. You have bad ones. Period.

I am happy to work for a great department with great training (I am a firearms instructor, rifle Armour, range master, and simmunitions instructor) and we have had a few shoots in our history and they have all been very clean cut. We don't go firing at vehicles. You are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. You don't want it to be a million dollars a bullet when you start letting the lead fly....

There is an old (not really a joke) joke about chases in St. Paul back in the day. No one wanted to be the first squad, cause all the other cops were on the side of the road taking shots at the fleeing vehicle. Needless to say, that isn't done anymore....

Not justifying the shoot - I am sure there are problems with it, and I don't know anything about it. But, you hear sirens and see lights? Pull over. That is what a reasonable person does. End of story. Anything that happens AFTER that while not complying? Is solely on the backs of the person fleeing.
 
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41. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 09:35 PHJF
 
You flee, you run from police, there is a pretty high chance you will be killed.

No, that's if you're running from terrible police. The firearm is not the goto law enforcement tool, it is the last resort. And if I'm ever in a position where police are chasing AND FIRING at me, I'm not going to stop and say, "hey, please stop shooting at me." Use of deadly force has long been a serious issue with the Cleveland PD and this last incident finally seems to be bringing the water to a boil.

And I think you know well enough I don't hate police. I just hate how low police officer standards have fallen. It's a thankless, often dangerous job, and it isn't attracting the quality of people such an important position deserves. I'm starting academy in January in Akron. I should hope if I get through and wind up on the streets the least I can do is not kill unarmed civilians.
 
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40. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 07:49 Mr. Tact
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 01:44:
I am amazed this thread got to post 28 before somebody mentioned Michelle Jenneke.
Definitely deserving of her "15 minutes", glad to she has a sense of humor. Congrats to whomever wrassles that Aussie into a relationship.
 
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39. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 07:46 jimnms
 
Ugh, don't even get me started on the "Assault Weapon" ban. It was a political stunt and did nothing to prevent crime. The DOJ's own review of the ban found that its effect on gun violence was too small for reliable measurement, because assault weapons are rarely used in crimes. All it effectively did was ban the use of more than two cosmetic features on semi-automatic military looking replicas. I have three friends and two relatives in law enforcement, and all of them knew the law was junk.

I agree with you that there are a lot of stupid people with guns, but I believe there are more responsible gun owners than there are irresponsible ones. I don't have a solution to stop crazy people from legally obtaining a gun without stopping sane people. A good start would be harsher punishment for all crimes committed with a gun, so send the yo-yo from the basketball game to prison for two counts of attempted murder and tack on some extra for using a gun. Send the black Friday idiot to jail and take away his right to own a gun ever again.

Edit: I was just reading an opinion article someone posted elsewhere and saw this in the comments: "Why have there been so many mass shootings at schools, and so few at shooting ranges?" I laughed, then I felt bad for laughing.

This comment was edited on Dec 15, 2012, 07:57.
 
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38. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 06:03 Cutter
 
Perfect example of what I'm talking about. After the basketball game in Philly tonight a bunch of people get into an argument and this one yo-yo pulls out a gun fires off a few shots - hitting 2 people - and books it. Or that example of a guy - who was licensed to carry - who pulled his gun on a guy trying to cut into line on Black Friday. Seriously?

I'm a big guy and I can handle myself so whenever I've been in situations like that most people generally think twice about going down that road with me. However, what pisses me off is that after I shut those clowns down they all tell me what a good guy I am. And I'm like 'Fuck you! Why didn't you jump in?' That's how bullying/terrorism succeeds. Why did it have to come to a guy pulling a gun in the first place when everyone else should have told the guy trying to cut into line to fuckoff or face a shitkicking from the mob?

As a long time bartender used to dealing with drunks I can't count the times when some or a few jackasses were getting out of line and I step in and when it looks like it may come to blows a bunch of other good guys step up and state they have my back and then the clowns see a bunch of other pissed off dudes ready to kick their asses and they shut up and leave. Why does it have to come to pulling a weapon? To me that's the height of irresponsibility. Then what might have been simple fisticuffs becomes asshole is all pissed off and goes and gets his gun out of the trunk and things get really haywire.

Like I said, I'm not anti-gun. But it seems to me there are way too many yo-yos and borderline nuts with easy access to guns. Can you guys as responsible gun owners argue against more stringent laws/tests/insurance to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible idiots and lunatics?

I had to laugh looking at the comments today on some news sites from the guys pissing and moaning about the ban on assault rifles when it was the boys in blue who led the charge against it in the first place. I don't know many cops but the ones I do know are for very strict gun control. I'm just arguing for more responsibility is all and much, much heavier punishments for those illegally in possession of guns. Bats you understand what I'm saying right. Every time you have to stop some car at night it must be one of the things first and foremost in your mind.
 
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37. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 05:00 xXBatmanXx
 
Nice post.  
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36. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 04:45 Jeraxle
 
Wow. Thank you jimnms!  
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35. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 04:17 jimnms
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 15, 2012, 02:15:
Yeah, but the flip side is there are places it could end up an insane bloodbath. Look at the theater shooting this summer. Now imagine if everyone is armed and you have a couple of hundred people all whipping out guns and shooting anything that looks like a threat. I dunno. Again, it comes back to people because I'd be more afraid of everyone walking around armed when you consider how many fucking tools are out there.

I don't know what the restrictions are for carry and conceal but I'd like to imagine they're pretty stringent in most places. Maybe it should come down to it's ok for anyone to keep a handgun/shotgun/rifle in the house but it has to be hard as hell to get a carry and conceal permit and very heavy prison sentences for anyone who breaks it. At the very least their should be psych tests for psychopathic tendencies. I'm considering switching careers and joining customs and if you don't pass the psych tests you don't get hired.

The requirement for a permit to conceal carry is different by state. I have a permit to carry in my state, and it consisted of a background check and a 6 month waiting period (and $300).

This article pretty much answers your questions.

TL;DR:
Most of the guns owned by law-abiding citizens are kept at home, but 87 percent of violent crimes occur outside the home. The constantly armed portion of the community consists primarily of the police and violent criminals.
...
Florida, which in 1987 enacted a concealed-carry law guaranteeing a gun permit to any resident who is at least 21, has no record of crime, mental illness or drug or alcohol abuse, and who has completed a firearms safety course. Florida's homicide rate fell following the enactment of this law, as did the rate in Oregon after the enactment of a similar law.
...
Ninety percent of violent crimes are committed by persons not carrying handguns. This is one reason why the mere brandishing of a gun by a potential victim of violence often is a sufficient response to a would-be attacker. In most cases where a gun is used in self-defense, it is not fired.
...
"Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck, using surveys and other data, has determined that armed citizens defend their lives or property with firearms against criminals approximately 1 million times a year. In 98 percent of these instances, the citizen merely brandishes the weapon or fires a warning shot. Only in 2 percent of the cases do citizens actually shoot their assailants. In defending themselves with their firearms, armed citizens kill 2,000 to 3,000 criminals each year, three times the number killed by the police. A nationwide study by Don Kates, the constitutional lawyer and criminologist, found that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."

Since only 10% of crimes are committed with handguns, don't think that banning guns would reduce crime by 10% because the article also points out "93 percent of the guns obtained by violent criminals are not obtained through lawful transactions that are the focus of most gun control legislation." Crime would increase because law abiding gun owners wouldn't be able to prevent crime anymore.

Personal gun ownership was banned in the UK in 1997. The use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the ban. In 1997 2,648 crimes were reported involving handguns [1]. Last year that number was 5,507 [2].
 
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34. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 03:29 Jeraxle
 
But it isn't those people I worry about. It is the 10x offender that is going to carry a gun no matter what, and they aren't punished for it when we catch them.

This!

Every time something bad happens, there is outcry and outrage for new regulations. Trouble is, there are already laws on the books. If we just enforced them and applied the penalties involved (note: both have to happen in order to be effective) then less of these crimes would happen.

Disarming the 99.8% of legal, law abiding citizens is not the answer to less crime.
 
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33. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 03:26 Jeraxle
 
It isn't about guns. It is about control. It isn't about guns it is about people. Lets not blame the tool, lets put the focus on the person. I grew up aruond guns (in south dakota it was still ok to have a loaded gun in a gun rack in your truck) and this stuff never happened. It is a bigger issue than guns. It is a society issue. Violent offenders are accepted and released after very short terms.

To sum up, forks did not make Rosie O'Donnell fat. =)
 
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32. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 03:23 xXBatmanXx
 
Maybe it should come down to it's ok for anyone to keep a handgun/shotgun/rifle in the house but it has to be hard as hell to get a carry and conceal permit and very heavy prison sentences for anyone who breaks it. At the very least their should be psych tests for psychopathic tendencies. I'm considering switching careers and joining customs and if you don't pass the psych tests you don't get hired.

You can own any guns in your home, as long as it meets federal requirements. Ie: no silencers without a license, no fully auto, etc. Unless you are a convicted felon. We take guns out of houses on a regular basis after a domestic. They then have to fight the system and judge to get them back.

It isnt "easy" to get a carry permit in Minnesota. But it isnt hard either. You can't be convicted of a violent crime, domestic, felony etc. The downside to that, is even without a perimt, it is only a misdemeanor to carry a gun (no jail time, don't give up the gun) and a 25.00 fine. But it isn't those people I worry about. It is the 10x offender that is going to carry a gun no matter what, and they aren't punished for it when we catch them.

Make the punishment fit the crime.
 
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31. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 03:17 xXBatmanXx
 
Oh, and Cleveland is still reeling in the aftermath of a recent police auto chase during which one officer fired his weapon ~40 times. The fleeing driver and passenger

Why didn't they pul over and stop? Seems weird. You flee, you run from police, there is a pretty high chance you will be killed.

I can shoot all 38 of my rounds in less than 15 seconds.....it isn't a number of bullets issue, it is a time issue.

A rifle is a rifle. DOesn't matter if it is a hunting rifle or AR15. If you try and get rid of "assault rifles" you need to get rid of everything, just isn't goin got happen.

It isn't about guns. It is about control. It isn't about guns it is about people. Lets not blame the tool, lets put the focus on the person. I grew up aruond guns (in south dakota it was still ok to have a loaded gun in a gun rack in your truck) and this stuff never happened. It is a bigger issue than guns. It is a society issue. Violent offenders are accepted and released after very short terms.

Anyway. You won't get our guns.
 
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30. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 02:15 Cutter
 
Yeah, but the flip side is there are places it could end up an insane bloodbath. Look at the theater shooting this summer. Now imagine if everyone is armed and you have a couple of hundred people all whipping out guns and shooting anything that looks like a threat. I dunno. Again, it comes back to people because I'd be more afraid of everyone walking around armed when you consider how many fucking tools are out there.

I don't know what the restrictions are for carry and conceal but I'd like to imagine they're pretty stringent in most places. Maybe it should come down to it's ok for anyone to keep a handgun/shotgun/rifle in the house but it has to be hard as hell to get a carry and conceal permit and very heavy prison sentences for anyone who breaks it. At the very least their should be psych tests for psychopathic tendencies. I'm considering switching careers and joining customs and if you don't pass the psych tests you don't get hired.
 
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29. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 02:07 Jeraxle
 
The 2nd Amendment is not just about the right to possess weaponry. It's also the right to self defense. It's the right to defend oneself, his family, and his neighbor against numerous people / groups to include the government, muggers, rapists, murderers, thieves, etc.

All of the talk I see has been all about "What if guns didn't exist?" or "What if he couldn't get his hands on a gun?". Well, I pose a question to the peanut gallery, "What if one of those teachers had been armed and in firing position?".

When I'm at war, I carry a pistol, a rifle, and sometimes my sniper rifle or a M240 Machine gun. When I'm at home and outside of my house, I'm armed as well. Why? Because my face has been on wanted posters. There is a $50,000 bounty on my head just because I thwart badguys for a living. I have reasonable fear that someone may hurt me or my family. Now, that said, isn't it just as likely that some random thug could kill me with a car? Probably more likely, but I'm still going to eliminate the possibility that someone could hurt me or my family without a fight out of me. And the more people that know it, the safer I and my family are.

<off my soap box>

Go Bears! I'm nothing if not loyal.

This comment was edited on Dec 15, 2012, 03:39.
 
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28. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 01:44 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
I am amazed this thread got to post 28 before somebody mentioned Michelle Jenneke.

She's hot. Also because of that video, I now need to buy some nunchuks with which to eat pancakes.

 
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27. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 01:33 Creston
 
Kosumo wrote on Dec 14, 2012, 21:34:
Also, as to the NFL talk, I'm loving it and winning bets due to reading what you guys are picking, If it got the jarvo/crestron (such bad spelling) pick and the odds are right, I'm on it, manly the late Sunday (which is 2pmish here in NZ) games and the Monday Night games.

Won several hundred on the Bengils v Egales due to their picks, if they keep it up and I keep the winning up, there could be a few games gifted posted Superbowl

This is probably a bad time to tell you that I base my picks totally off my knowledge of "Oh yeah, they were good two years ago!"

Creston
 
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26. Re: Out of the Blue Dec 15, 2012, 01:28 Creston
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 14, 2012, 18:46:
While this insane sort of shit does occur other places from time to time, it doesn't happen with near the frequency or scale as it does in the US.

Yes it does. You just don't see it on the news as much, partially because the US news channels fucking thrive on misery, and partially because of where you live. (as in: You see far more news about the US than you do about the other sides of the world.)

Right when I left Holland, there was an absolute wave of drunk people just ganging up and beating someone to death. It had happened three times in the year before, along with an incident of one guy who was apparently an expert martial artist using his skill to kick a guy to death. And that also followed along with a story of a guy who raped a teenage girl in broad daylight on the streets in Amsterdam, and while she was screaming for someone to help her, there was an entire CROWD of people standing around watching it, and nobody lifted a finger to help.

I'm not saying the US isn't fucked, but it's not as if this only happens here and nowhere else. One or two years ago, a kid in China grabbed a fucking fire-axe and hacked several of his classmates to death.

The entire world is a piece of shit. It's not somehow unique to the US.

Creston
 
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