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Morning Consolidation

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71 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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51. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 12:44 Quboid
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 11, 2012, 08:12:
But yeah, I think PopCap got bagged on here pretty regularly around 10 years ago. It got the same loathing we give anything else new and getting attention that we therefore don't understand and fear. "Who plays flash games? Oh my god, these idiots. I hope PopCap dies in a fire. Brotard ADHD crap. This isn't real gaming. Look at those sheep."

So it's not just me. Good to know.
 
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50. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 09:42 Verno
 
Prez wrote on Dec 11, 2012, 08:05:
The PopCap I am familiar with were hated here

I can't remember a single Blues poster saying that they didn't love Plants versus Zombies. I really don't remember anyone even bagging on Peggle, as simple as it is. I think you might have been partaking in some revisionist history. PvZ was almost universally praised here from its release. I know I was hopelessly addicted to it for weeks.

Yeah exactly, Blues and many other PC communities have been practically universal in praising their stuff. The whole "Blues is a bunch of haters" is a myth anyway, people just let the troll posts get under their skin then air a bunch of silly rants lumping everyone else in with them.
 
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49. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 08:12 Beamer
 
Prez wrote on Dec 11, 2012, 08:05:
The PopCap I am familiar with were hated here

I can't remember a single Blues poster saying that they didn't love Plants versus Zombies. I really don't remember anyone even bagging on Peggle, as simple as it is. I think you might have been partaking in some revisionist history. PvZ was almost universally praised here from its release. I know I was hopelessly addicted to it for weeks.

I hated Plants v Zombies. It seemed like such a dumb implementation of Tower Defense.

Peggle was ok, for a game of stupid chance.

But yeah, I think PopCap got bagged on here pretty regularly around 10 years ago. It got the same loathing we give anything else new and getting attention that we therefore don't understand and fear. "Who plays flash games? Oh my god, these idiots. I hope PopCap dies in a fire. Brotard ADHD crap. This isn't real gaming. Look at those sheep."
 
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48. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 08:05 Prez
 
The PopCap I am familiar with were hated here

I can't remember a single Blues poster saying that they didn't love Plants versus Zombies. I really don't remember anyone even bagging on Peggle, as simple as it is. I think you might have been partaking in some revisionist history. PvZ was almost universally praised here from its release. I know I was hopelessly addicted to it for weeks.
 
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47. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 07:19 InBlack
 
I was quite addicted to the Facebook edition of Bejeweled for a while...

At the time I didnt have much time for 'regular' gaming and it was 'fun' as in 'wasting time on the can fun' not the awesome coolsauce fun as I had with say...XCom...for example.

 
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46. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 05:21 jdreyer
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 20:32:

Are you saying that casual gaming is welcomed here? Are you saying that PopCap have been respected here?

Edit: that didn't take long. Once again, Verno was the voice of reason but look at netnerd's comments, and NegaDeath's to see how this is changing to the latest casual gaming baddie.

That was only 2 months ago, AFTER EA bought them, and AFTER they announced they were firing George Fan. The EA virus was already infecting them. Please show thread after thread of Popcap hate from two years back or earlier.

Also, hatred of Zynga has less to do with the fact that they make shitty casual games than the fact that they see some cool indie game, and force their workers to work 18 hour days to make an identical copy in three months before the indy developer has gotten their legs. It's rank thievery that puts innovators out of business.

Popcap on the other hand has always been viewed as an innovator and respected for that by most people.

EDIT: After reading the entire thread, I see others have made my same points earlier and better.

This comment was edited on Dec 11, 2012, 05:43.
 
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45. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 01:55 Zyrxil
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 23:25:
Evidently I underestimated PopCap's popularity (genuine, at-the-time popularity) but I believe it was far from universal and I remain baffled by what looks to me like collective amnesia over the unpopularity of casual gaming back when sensationalist media thought it was the end of PC gaming again.

I suspect most of the people who didn't like PopCap didn't play any of their games, because, ew, they're casual games.

Anyway, my point has been utterly lost and I think it mostly didn't register at all. I apologise for failing to make this point clearly.

You never had a point. You were, to put it quite plainly, deluded about the facts. It's quite a simple chain of events to follow:

1. Casual games do have a reputation among more hardcore gamers for being cheap, disposable, lacking depth, and being exploitative (when it comes to ingame purchases with real money).

2. Those who disparage casual games often use Zynga and Farmville as examples of the worst of the worst. Zynga also has the reputation of cloning already popular games and then using superior marketing to make their clone the more popular game.

3. Popcap is a premier developer of casual games, however, their games do not have the reputation that other casual games have.

4. This is where delusion sets in. You link Popcap and the distaste for bad casual games in your mind, simply by virtue of Popcap being an extremely well known producer of the most popular casual games. It is however, Zynga that embodies all the qualities you describe when you claim that Blues and hardcore games in general have always hated Popcap. This is why others bring up Zynga repeatedly in the discussion, and yet you treat it as somehow further evidence that Zynga and Popcap are linked in the people's minds, and thus, have similar reputations.

5. In fact, what is actually true is that Popcap was the most well regarded casual developer among hardcore gamers, especially after Valve's promotion of Peggle with Half-Life 2. It is precisely because of their sterling reputation and profitability extrême that they were purchased by EA. EA saw the trend towards casual gaming, and they had made moves of their own with internal studios. They saw the opportunity for purchasing a juggernaut in casual gaming, perhaps considering it be "getting in on the ground floor" as the casual industry exploded with mobile gaming.

6. And we come to today- Popcap, a company not disliked by hardcore gamers, announces that it is planning a game apparently far outside their area of expertise. Well then the obvious connection is made by gamers- EA is once again forcing studios they have acquired to make extremely bad moves. The poor micromanaging once again sets Popcap on the same road to ruin that so many other beloved studios have taken after being acquired by EA. And you, monsieur, take that to be evidence of a mental hypocrisy, something hated becoming beloved by virtue of it being the victim of something more hated. You have externalized some vague internal discontentment, lashing out without reason or principle. You wish to see the hypocrisy? Look inside to yourself.

Addendum: I've been watching a lot of Agatha Christie's Poirot recently; all of the above is best read with a dramatic fake Belgian accent.
 
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44. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 11, 2012, 00:03 nin
 
Anyway, my point has been utterly lost and I think it mostly didn't register at all. I apologise for failing to make this point clearly.

It's just a disagreement. We still wuvs you.

 
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43. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 23:25 Quboid
 
Evidently I underestimated PopCap's popularity (genuine, at-the-time popularity) but I believe it was far from universal and I remain baffled by what looks to me like collective amnesia over the unpopularity of casual gaming back when sensationalist media thought it was the end of PC gaming again.

I suspect most of the people who didn't like PopCap didn't play any of their games, because, ew, they're casual games.

Anyway, my point has been utterly lost and I think it mostly didn't register at all. I apologise for failing to make this point clearly.

This comment was edited on Dec 10, 2012, 23:38.
 
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42. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 23:21 Quboid
 
Virtually none of that has any relevance to my point. Your weird Bieber analogy is answered by yourself "That's a giant straw man you're building, and you're kicking it hard. It also fails as an analogy". EA are forcing them? Why do you say forcing? Maybe PopCap have been desperate for this. Maybe they've hired people, or been given them by EA, who can handle this. How much of PopCap's 200M+ sales were since EA bought them? Is it crazy of EA to think that they've got a highly talented group of people, so they should be given high reward projects like a AAA title? For all we know, PopCap have been desperate for this and are delighted that the chance has come their way. For all we know, this AAA title is PvZ2! Or maybe the original team is working on PvZ2 and this AAA title is by a completely separate, new team who only have the PopCap name for some organisational convenience at EA.  
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41. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 23:04 Creston
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 21:20:
That list means virtually nothing. The first entry is exactly what I was talking about. Most of the rest relate to PvZ, which I acknowledged was an exception.

The first entry is exactly what everyone is thinking when they see EA forcing Popcap to make a AAA title, when that has NEVER been what they do. In fact, they need to hire extra people to be able to do it, because nobody there has any kind of experience with making AAA titles. So that first entry is spot on.

And saying that list is invalid is just stupid, Quboid. In five minutes, he find a large subset of people raving about Popcap. Had he gone further back than 2009, you'd find the same comments around the time the original bejeweled came out, when rocket mania came out (though most of them probably were mine), when bespelled came out, when peggle came out, etc.

That said, searching back a bit more there is less negativity towards PopCap that I'd thought, I will give you that. There was hostility to casual gaming at a time when PopCap was the biggest player so I believe my point stands. It would be like claiming you hate coffee shop chains but not Starbucks, they're alright - it doesn't work like that, you can't hate a concept but like the biggest purveyor. PopCap weren't as unpopular as I'd remembered, just everything they stood for.

That's a giant straw man you're building, and you're kicking it hard. It also fails as an analogy, but I don't really have any desire to spend ten paragraphs pointing out why.

It's perfectly fine for someone to say Zynga sucks and Popcap rocks.

Popcap makes actual games, rather than stupid graphical real-money skinner boxes. In most cases they take an existing idea an build a terrifyingly addictive game with it. All Zynga does is make the same skinner box over and over again.

Do they both make casual games? Yes. But in the hierarchy of casual games, Popcap is just skating around the edges, whereas Zynga is the absolute king of trivial, nonsensical click fests.

This raises another point. If PopCap are so great, why are people so upset about them expanding and getting a hugely higher budget? Shouldn't you guys be delighted, excitedly anticipating one of your favourite studios getting the chance to dig their skilled little teeth into something bigger. Shouldn't you be praising EA for backing this studio?

That's like saying "Why are you so upset that they are asking Justin Bieber to compose a classical symphony?"

Popcap makes simple-yet-addictive games. They DON'T MAKE AAA games. There is likely nobody in that studio that knows how to make one. And so while EA is forcing them to make a AAA console title (because apparently Popcap's 200 million + sales isn't good enough for EA), they are not making the next PvZ. Or at least they aren't devoting their entire studio to it, which they should be, as that's what they are good at, and that's what people love them for.


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40. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:58 Quboid
 
A few years ago, when the iPhone's App Store was taking off and the Android Market was launching, casual gaming was on the rise in the big way and there was a lot of talk about how this was the future of gaming.

This attitude was received very poorly here, with some good reasons. At the time, the mention of casual gaming would get an angry reaction. At that time, the main casual developer was PopCap (although Rovio and Zynga have taken over that position).

Is this not true? Did I imagine this? Did many not look down their noses at these silly little games?

PopCap weren't as unpopular as I'd thought, but everything they stood for was.
 
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39. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:50 Quboid
 
NegaDeath wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 22:26:
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 21:45:
Why Zynga? Why not EA? Why not Activision? Why not iD Softwareblah blah

Because I don't want any of them to close, despite their flaws.

I don't even understand what your argument is anymore. Is it that I secretly hate the casual market but give popcap some kind of pass? I didn't call for the closure of any other casual studio and last I checked there were way more than two devs. Popcap doesn't hold a candle to Zynga when it comes to stealing ideas.

Casual market ok, Zynga bad. Are we done here now? I certainly am.

Basically, yes. There was a lot of people here who consider casual gaming to be beneath them, no? Am I wrong on this point?

What do you mean "give PopCap some kind of pass"? If you don't know why I think PopCap are getting a free pass, you haven't read the thread. PopCap gets a pass because they're now seen as EA's victim. As mentioned before, criticising EA isn't EA bashing, but rewriting history to make EA look bad is EA bashing.

You might want a word with Verno about bringing up everything bad companies have done. I'm not saying Zynga aren't bad. I'm not saying PopCap is worse than Zynga.
 
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38. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:39 Quboid
 
PopCap was casual gaming's poster child and sadly, there was a lot of blanket hate for casual gaming, utterly mindless stuff. Not universal and as I said, PopCap does appear to genuinely more popular than I'd remembered - but I believe it was considerably less popular than you remember. Perhaps those who liked PopCap's games didn't see the wider world frowning on their mindless, moronic little games. Does no one else remember how casual gaming was/is seen here?

There was certainly trolls way back when, but (rose tinted specs on) they were unsubtle and harmless.

You speak a lot of sense Verno. This thread suggests I did overestimate the dislike of specifically PopCap back when they were independent, and PopCap is ultimately the subject here. However, I do believe quite a number of fools did have a blanket dislike and dismissal of anything casual and this included PopCap. Although they were independent, no one ever referred to them as an indie developer, because indie = cool and casual = uncool, ergo independent casual != indie.

Let me ask you guys this: how do you think casual gaming was considering a couple of years ago? How is it considered today?
 
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37. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:26 NegaDeath
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 21:45:
Why Zynga? Why not EA? Why not Activision? Why not iD Softwareblah blah

Because I don't want any of them to close, despite their flaws.

I don't even understand what your argument is anymore. Is it that I secretly hate the casual market but give popcap some kind of pass? I didn't call for the closure of any other casual studio and last I checked there were way more than two devs. Popcap doesn't hold a candle to Zynga when it comes to stealing ideas.

Casual market ok, Zynga bad. Are we done here now? I certainly am.
 
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36. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:22 Verno
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 22:12:
The onus should be on me, but it's self evident. I thought. This is the crux of why I'm continuing this pointless debate: people seem shocked that I'm suggesting casual gaming wasn't very popular and that genuinely baffles me.

This isn't about casual gaming as a whole though, its about Popcap and EA. People don't just blanket hate all casual gaming either, that's another general comment that ignores specific things and companies that people don't like in the casual gaming market. I hate like 90% of the casual gaming market because it is honestly tripe with no design ambition or original thought but that doesn't mean I hate everything casual gaming.

Beats me. I wanted to highlight the same snobbery and hypocrisy that floods this site when something that might have a console version gets released. Turns out, hypocrites don't like being called out. To be fair, there are those who did like some PopCap games, more than I thought. On a larger scale, I'm saddened by the way this community is going. Maybe I'm just getting old, but the saying seems very true: never read comments on the internet.

You didn't really do any of that though. Something bugged you and you said something really broad and inaccurate that you should've just walked back instead of digging your heels in. There's nothing wrong the community here either, go back 10 years and you will find just as many troll posts and all of the other colorful parts of the internet in general. Lumping everyone in with those is a bit frustrating and just helps create the messes you're criticizing. If there's a problem with Blues remember that you're a part of it, I'm a part of it and so on.

Geez I remember reading the site 4-5 years ago when most of the PC devs took off for console land, port quality was atrocious if they arrived at all and every second article seemed to be announcing the death of the PC. Rose tinted glasses my friend

Anyways we've given this topic way more attention than it deserves so with that I'm off to sleep.
 
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35. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:12 Quboid
 
Verno wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 22:06:
For the record Popcap owns and always has and I've rarely seen anyone air an opinion to the opposite here. Plus when you're making the accusation I'd say the onus is on you, not everyone else but whatever, I'll leave you to...whatever this is then

I posted this as an edit to my earlier post but since you since posted this, it seems applicable here. The onus should be on me, but it's self evident. I thought. This is the crux of why I'm continuing this pointless debate: people seem shocked that I'm suggesting casual gaming wasn't very popular and that genuinely baffles me.

What are you hoping to gain here? I really don't get the point to be honest. Do you want everyone to just bring up every bad thing every company has done to be fair and balanced? Do you work for EA or Zynga? If not who cares? People will never be 100% balanced or fair, that's not human nature and you're not excluded from that either.

Beats me. I wanted to highlight the same snobbery and hypocrisy that floods this site when something that might have a console version gets released. Turns out, hypocrites don't like being called out. To be fair, there are those who did like some PopCap games, more than I thought.

I don't work for EA or Zynga and have never had anything to do with either apart from being an occasional customer. I may never be 100% balanced or fair, but I'm damn well going to try to be. I don't see what the "bring up every bad thing" has to do with things.

On a larger scale, I'm saddened by the way this community is going. Maybe I'm just getting old, but the saying seems very true: never read comments on the internet.
 
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34. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:06 Verno
 
For the record Popcap owns and always has and I've rarely seen anyone air an opinion to the opposite here. Plus when you're making the accusation I'd say the onus is on you, not everyone else but whatever, I'll leave you to...whatever this is then  
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33. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:05 Quboid
 
Verno wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 21:57:
They generally weren't popular here until they became the little guys against EA. If everyone had consistent views, we'd (with exceptions) dislike both sides here.

This wasn't aimed at me but I'm calling bullshit on it, that's just a justification for your rant. People have always been fairly enthusiastic about Popcap games for as long as I've been reading the site.

Well, that's how I remember it. You're also one of the respectable members here so I don't think you're making this up, but I disagree.

This comment was edited on Dec 10, 2012, 22:11.
 
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32. Re: Morning Consolidation Dec 10, 2012, 22:03 Quboid
 
Verno wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 21:55:
Quboid wrote on Dec 10, 2012, 21:20:
That list means virtually nothing.

Err yeah it does, you made a pretty vague accusation and he refuted it handily. No offense but you've been asking for it lately with all of the "blah blah the community here sucks because they don't think like XYZ" stuff. Sometimes the cynicism gets to me but you don't fight it by feeding into it and to be honest sometimes its perfectly logical and understandable.

People just really like their games and the EA purchase made people weary for many legitimate reasons, since the acquisition it's been one bit of bad news after another. No idea why you're persisting with this, I'd just chalk it up to having a bad day and move on.

Why am I persisting with this? WHY AM I PERSISTING WITH THIS? HERE'S WHY I'M PERSISTING WITH THIS!.

Did you check that list? Few are relevant and most agree with me - mainly with regards to PvZ. There's even one who criticised PopCap in his defence of PvZ! There's about half a dozen over 4 years - from someone who was unimpressed by 2 in 2 minutes (disregarding NegaDeath's unconvincing excuses).
 
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