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Out of the Blue

Football Thursday is upon us, and most of this week's games are in December, so things are getting serious. Sorry for posting late on Thanksgiving and making things difficult, here's the best I could do to piece together last week's results: Jivaro 11-5, Batman 10-5 (you can take that win from last week, but this time I'm not sure who the "Queens" are), Blue 10-6, Cutter 9-6, and Creston 8-5.

Here goes for this week: Saints, Bears, Texans, Patriots, Bills, Lions, Panthers, Packers, 49ers, Jets, Broncos, Ravens, Bengals, Browns, Cowboys, and Giants.

Serious Links: Thanks Ant and Acleacius.
Play: Feed Us 4.
Stories: Lohan Charged With Assault in NYC.
Science: How sensitive is the climate to added CO2?
U.S. Lagging in Modern-Day Space Race.
Media: New surveillance video shows F-18 crashing into apartments. Thanks nin.
Alfred Hitchcock's Movie Cameos.
How to Eat an Ear of Corn - Quickly!
The Funnies: Cat Breath Cartoon - Savage Chickens.
Follow-up: Data from the LHC suggest it may be producing a new type of matter. Thanks j.c.f.
Hostess to seek approval of executive bonuses. Thanks nin. Use the Twinkie defense!

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56 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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36. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:37 Beamer
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 15:16:
Beamer, you're entirely wrong. You don't know near as much about business as you pretend to, so please, just stop, it's embarrassing for you and irritating for us.

What am I wrong about?
Am I wrong that, when one company is buying another, they demand access to the people that ran that company?
No. No I'm not.

Am I wrong that union bosses are sometimes corrupt?
No. No I'm not.

Am I wrong that unions sometimes make decisions that are against their best interest?
No. No I'm not.

Am I wrong that management seriously screwed this company over, and that the company was experiencing significantly declining sales?
No. No I'm not.


What you're wrong about:
1) That unions are never, ever wrong. Seriously, any time you say "never, ever" you're probably wrong
2) That management isn't key to the sale of a company. They're extremely important. Again, I can't stress enough that I'm in the middle of an M&A project as we speak. I've done 3 in the past 2 years. The buyer wants as much access to people as it does to numbers
3) That these managers would flee as quickly as possible if they didn't have a monetary incentive to stay. While at least some, if not all, of them are absolute asses that have made too much money off this company, that's a sunk cost. At this point you look at what is in the best interest of the company between now and the sale, and that's keeping these guys around to keep that sale price as high as possible


Please, tell me what's wrong here. You really seem to misjudge how important the managers of a company are to making sure a sale goes through, goes through smoothly, and goes through at a high price.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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35. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:28 Will W
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 15:06:
Are you high on the marijuana, son? Those are the assholes who created this problem to begin with. Now they want to grab what they can and run like thieves in the night. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

While I understand your opinion on this, the decision doesn't lie with you, me, or the general public. This decision is made by the Judge with the input of the creditors. If the creditors feel that it's worthwhile, they will recommend to the judge to ok it and all will go fine. If they don't, then the judge will have to decide.

The judge already rejected converting it to a Chapter 7, meaning no overseeing trustee, and agreed with the argument that a trustee will take too long to come up to speed on how the business works and thus devalue the assets of the company.

Who anyone feel created this situation doesn't really matter at this point, what matters is getting maximum value for the assets. Potential buyers interested in the assets have inquired about rehiring the existing workforce. The faster and more efficient the sale can take place will benefit everyone. Sometimes when you're getting screwed there's nothing you can do about it but use a little lube to make it less painful. Think of these bonuses as the lube in this painful screw job.
 
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34. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:16 Cutter
 
Beamer, you're entirely wrong. You don't know near as much about business as you pretend to, so please, just stop, it's embarrassing for you and irritating for us.
 
Avatar 25394
 
"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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33. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:13 Cutter
 
Stupid Lions, stupid Packers!

Falcons, Texans, Pats, Jags, Colts, Panthers, Cards, 49ers, Packers, Bears, Broncos, Bengals, Browns, Ravens, Cowboys, Redskins.

We really need to automate this process for next year.
 
Avatar 25394
 
"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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32. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:12 Beamer
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 15:03:
Beamer wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 11:39:
I don't get your first point. They cannot get unemployed immediately - it's more or less impossible to sell this company without these guys. They're the ones that have actually been running it - they're needed to run it in the time being and whoever buys it will want to spend considerable time speaking with them as part of due diligence. There's more or less no way to move forward with this company without having many of these people in place.

Wrong. First off it's going to be a fast sale and everyone knows it. And you don't need these guys. It's why the union is asking for an independent trustee and they're right to do so. The CEO brought on board for this is making $125,000 a month? That's ludicrous by any stretch. That would pay the salary of 40 bakers for that company.


Hostess is a fantastic example of a poorly run company, of a product no one wanted anymore, of a company crippled by pension payments, and of greedy management calling everyone greedy but themselves.
But you cannot sell Hostess without overpaying its key people to stick around. Notably, the CEO doesn't have to be one of those people. Odds are whoever is buying doesn't have any interest in talking to him.

2.4 billion in sales a year is a product no one wants? Crippled by pension payments of a paltry 1 million per month? No, the only thing you got right is that is was poorly run and raided by a bunch of white collar crooks which is always the case. The working man isn't the problem, never has been, never will be.

You're fighting the wrong guy here. And you're wrong.
1) I keep repeating that bad management, compounded by the revolving door of CEOs, killed this company first and foremost. But yes, pension plans were a problem. And yes, the rapidly declining sales are a problem. 2.4 billion, but declining. Twinkies and white bread don't sell like they used to and are unlikely to ever do so.

2) No. You do need these guys. Sorry, Cutter, you've never been part of an M&A process. The buyers want three things: 1) numbers 2) someone to explain the numbers 3) someone to explain to them what the company has been doing, why they've been doing it, and how it's turned out. Yes, they can get those numbers from anyone (though you need people that know how to present them, and even know what numbers are needed), but #2 and #3 can only come from the guys inside the company. Exclusively. Any buyer will want significant time with these guys. We're talking weeks spent attached to the hip of these guys. If some of these guys walk away the potential buyer won't have that. If he doesn't have that he'll have pages of documents full of unanswered questions. If he can't answer questions he won't pay as much for it.

3) Never say never. Remember, the unions aren't led by "working men," they're led by union leaders. History is full of examples of their corruption bringing things down due to greed. And sometimes it isn't the union bosses - go rent American Dream and see how the consultant the union members hired, against the wishes of the union, caused those union workers to all lose their jobs, while what the union bosses had recommended would have solved it. And sometimes it's both - just look at the UAW in the late 70s and early 80s. Plenty of union boss arrogance and greed, and as a result plenty of workers doing intentionally poor jobs and creating cars with plenty of failures. Management wasn't innocent in any of this, particularly the faults of those poorly-designed-and-manufactured bosses, but Cutter, when you fall solely on one side (e.g., "the working man is never, ever wrong") you're probably wrong.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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31. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:06 Cutter
 
Will W wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 15:02:
Beamer is right on with his assessment of why these people are being grossly paid to stick it out. The expectation is that they will add more then 1.8 million in value to the sale of the assets due to their expertise and familiarity with the company.

Are you high on the marijuana, son? Those are the assholes who created this problem to begin with. Now they want to grab what they can and run like thieves in the night. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.
 
Avatar 25394
 
"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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30. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:03 Cutter
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 11:39:
I don't get your first point. They cannot get unemployed immediately - it's more or less impossible to sell this company without these guys. They're the ones that have actually been running it - they're needed to run it in the time being and whoever buys it will want to spend considerable time speaking with them as part of due diligence. There's more or less no way to move forward with this company without having many of these people in place.

Wrong. First off it's going to be a fast sale and everyone knows it. And you don't need these guys. It's why the union is asking for an independent trustee and they're right to do so. The CEO brought on board for this is making $125,000 a month? That's ludicrous by any stretch. That would pay the salary of 40 bakers for that company.


Hostess is a fantastic example of a poorly run company, of a product no one wanted anymore, of a company crippled by pension payments, and of greedy management calling everyone greedy but themselves.
But you cannot sell Hostess without overpaying its key people to stick around. Notably, the CEO doesn't have to be one of those people. Odds are whoever is buying doesn't have any interest in talking to him.

2.4 billion in sales a year is a product no one wants? Crippled by pension payments of a paltry 1 million per month? No, the only thing you got right is that is was poorly run and raided by a bunch of white collar crooks which is always the case. The working man isn't the problem, never has been, never will be.
 
Avatar 25394
 
"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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29. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 15:02 Will W
 
Beamer is right on with his assessment of why these people are being grossly paid to stick it out. The expectation is that they will add more then 1.8 million in value to the sale of the assets due to their expertise and familiarity with the company.  
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28. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 14:46 Verno
 
You can choose the split like the other bundles, they aren't doing anything nefarious. It was a pre-planned promotion with childs play.  
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Divinity Original Sin, Destiny, Fire Emblem
Watching: Continuum, Star Trek TNG, Haunt
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27. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 14:36 nin
 
Shok wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 14:14:
I just got an email for the "humble THQ bundle".

THQ is trying everything to stay in the black. Next they'll be selling signed official THQ toilet paper.

I bought the THQ mega pack on Steam a few Xmas' ago or I would buy this also...

I tried to do an amazon payment twice and it took me from the payment screen to the contact us screen. Opened a ticket.

Wonder how much of that 275K is going to THQ? The numbers are just rolling...

 
http://www.nin.com/pub/tension/
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26. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 14:14 Shok
 
I just got an email for the "humble THQ bundle".

THQ is trying everything to stay in the black. Next they'll be selling signed official THQ toilet paper.

I bought the THQ mega pack on Steam a few Xmas' ago or I would buy this also...
 
Avatar 9616
 
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25. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 13:23 Beamer
 
Bodolza wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:40:
Beamer wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:13:
"Executives" is the press' word, not Hostess. This is 19 people they consider vital...And I guarantee a few IT guys keeping the systems going.

Got anything to back that up?

"The company says the incentive pay is needed to retain the 19 corporate officers and "high-level managers" during the liquidation process, which could take about a year.

Two of those executives would be eligible for additional rewards depending on how efficiently they carry out the liquidation. The bonuses would be in addition to their regular pay.

The bonuses do not include pay for CEO Gregory Rayburn, who was brought on as a restructuring expert earlier this year. Rayburn is being paid $125,000 a month."


Unless you mean the IT part, and this money is going to the people deemed critical. At least one IT guy other than the CTO will be deemed critical.

And no, a court ordered appointee cannot do this as well. This is about selling Hostess. A court ordered appointee does not know the company or the business well enough to be a significant part of due diligence.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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24. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 13:10 Creston
 
Verno wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:35:
Creston wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 10:55:
.... aarrgghhh.... JETS (shut up, Verno! )

No matter who wins....I win!

*darth vader* Noooooooooooooooo!



Creston
 
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23. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 13:09 Creston
 
Verno wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:16:
Prez wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:10:
40 hours and counting! Since Half-Elf basically dared me I am now going to leave it running 24/7 when I am working or sleeping (two of the few things I have time to actually do this time of year).

It was funny, I had a buddy over the other night and he saw my steam friends list and goes "Snuggle Truck?" and I just said "yeah hes the son of a friend" and quickly closed the list

Hahaha. I love how Prez is pretending like it's a test to burn out his videocard, when we all know he's been actively playing like mad for the last 40 hours. Admit it, Prez!

Creston
 
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22. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 12:40 Bodolza
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:13:
"Executives" is the press' word, not Hostess. This is 19 people they consider vital...And I guarantee a few IT guys keeping the systems going.

Got anything to back that up?
 
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21. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 12:35 Verno
 
Creston wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 10:55:
.... aarrgghhh.... JETS (shut up, Verno! )

No matter who wins....I win!
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Divinity Original Sin, Destiny, Fire Emblem
Watching: Continuum, Star Trek TNG, Haunt
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20. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 12:22 Pete
 
So you are saying a court ordered trustee couldn't do an equal or better job as these chuckle-heads?  
Doin' it Big
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19. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 12:16 Verno
 
Prez wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 12:10:
40 hours and counting! Since Half-Elf basically dared me I am now going to leave it running 24/7 when I am working or sleeping (two of the few things I have time to actually do this time of year).

It was funny, I had a buddy over the other night and he saw my steam friends list and goes "Snuggle Truck?" and I just said "yeah hes the son of a friend" and quickly closed the list
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Divinity Original Sin, Destiny, Fire Emblem
Watching: Continuum, Star Trek TNG, Haunt
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18. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 12:13 Beamer
 
The whole point is you need them to stick around to the end. Yes, you can gamble that they won't be able to find jobs in time, but the basic point is that these positions are vital to the upcoming transition, and you cannot afford they leave.
You need to guarantee they stay.

"Executives" is the press' word, not Hostess. This is 19 people they consider vital. The CEO is sadly probably one. CFO. CTO. CMO. A bunch of Operations and Management people. And I guarantee a few IT guys keeping the systems going.

"Stay motivated" is bad terminology, I agree. But again, it isn't motivated to do their job, it's motivation to stick with their job. Again, I completely agree this company was run into the ground by raiding and by bad management, but it needs to be sold. There's no other option. Part of those proceeds will go towards the pension fund. You want to make sure you get the best deal possible, and that won't happen if you don't have the key decision makers available to help that transition. That's needed any time a company is purchased. You need someone running reports, then explaining reports and decisions, otherwise the buying company will feel they don't have a clear idea of the business, will rightly perceive that as risk, and will lowball their offer based upon that risk.

Keeping these guys around will cost $1.8MM to make sure they won't flee. But the expertise they will offer companies looking to purchase, even if flawed, will raise the buying price considerably.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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17. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 29, 2012, 12:10 Prez
 
nin wrote on Nov 29, 2012, 11:21:

Has SnuggleTruck burned up Prez's videocard yet???


40 hours and counting! Since Half-Elf basically dared me I am now going to leave it running 24/7 when I am working or sleeping (two of the few things I have time to actually do this time of year).
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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56 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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