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Croteam on Windows 8 Issues

A post on the Steam Users' Forums from a couple of weeks ago offers a distressing overview of Windows 8 from Croteam (thanks Gamer's Hell), as Alen Ladavac says: "I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are 'under the hood' motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers." Saying "Gabe Newel did not overreact," he goes on to describe how "under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS." Here's more:

There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

* (Our footnote, not Alen's): He seems to have missed this story).

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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 4.
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93. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:32 DukeFNukem
 
Verno wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:05:

I don't think that they needed to go that far but there's no reason that the operating system can't adapt itself to the device its running on. They already effectively do this for Windows Phone anyway. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of Metro Start and the Windows Store, they just suffer from design flaws and unnecessary restrictions.

There is no reason desktop users should be limited to two simultaneous Metro apps. There's no reason multimonitor users shouldn't be allowed to simply pin Metro start to a screen. Why are desktop users limited to preset resizing of Metro apps? People like Flood talk about the end user experience but don't seem to understand that one size does not fit all, Windows strength has traditionally been its adaptability after all.

A tablet and desktop interface are largely at odds with what they're trying to accomplish. A tablet is more of a consumption device with less input oriented tasks, display of information is constrained by smaller spaces and the hardware typically isn't very powerful and is more geared toward low power consumption so multitasking is sidelined. A desktop is practically the opposite in every regard, particularly when you get into multimonitor usage.

My easy fix to Windows 8 - fix the obvious design boo boos for desktop users and remove some of the Metro app restrictions. Allow users to sideload their own content if they wish, they can make it an unsupported flag that users have to manually enable if they want but just provide the option. This can be done, they do it already for Windows 8 Enterprise.

I think what you are missing in this whole problem with Windows 8 is that Microsoft doesn't care about your choices anymore. Windows 7 was about "choices" and "freedom". Windows 8 is about targeting the largest demographic so that Microsoft can sell the maximum number of Windows 8 licenses for the maximum amount of profit, through both their operating system and their app store. That demographic is largely, as you correctly stated, people who want to "consume" content.

You can't fix what's not broken. You wanna fix Windows 8? Done. Format C: and install Windows 7. Windows 8 fixed.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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92. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:25 noman
 
Verno wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:12:
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:02:
Don't make a metro app then. Don't make an iOS app either.

Make desktop applications/games instead.

It's not that simple, devs need to go where the market is and if the market moves toward metro apps then they will be forced to go along or struggle with alternatives.

I'm not sure why people think comparisons to iOS are favorable either, it's a closed and shitty platform flooded with crapware that Apple rules with a tight fist. I think we would all like Microsoft's store to be different. Croteam is probably complaining because of their negative experiences with other closed platforms.

The comparisons to Apple or Steam are there to show that this is hardly a new thing. Forced DRM has been here for so long, that there are even fanboys out there for DRM methods (such as Steam) Half the people dissing Windows Store have no problems purchasing Steamworks games that shove the entire Valve's store into other retail and digital store services.

For me, there's no difference between Origin, Steam, Uplay or Windows Store. I don't mind trying free games from any of these services and very rarely do I pay full (or even half price) for the products they are selling.

Thankfully, GoG is out there, and the Kickstarter funded games along with the Humble Bundles give some completely non-DRM options.

Coming back to the debate, Croteam's stance is naive and somewhat hypocritical. What they commented on is not a surprise, and they have had no problems using other DRM schemes in recent past.

Windows8 is indeed great, and while the metro interface can have substantial improvement on desktop, it still works quite well for a lot of metro apps already, and the desktop interface is all there in any case.
 
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91. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:14 Mashiki Amiketo
 
ChandlerL wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:05:
So I'm supposed to side with Croteam's chest-beating while they release games on the closed systems of Xbox 360, Apple iOS, and Sony PS3? Seems to me they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Yeah but...consoles aren't "closed" according to that mindset, it's DRM and that's okay.

*flying leap of logic into the abyss*
 
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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90. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:12 noman
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:04:
Yeah and I am waiting for a tablet that I can hook up my portable microwave and blender to when I go on road trips. Crossing my fingers and hoping that Windows 9 will allow me to do that. Windows 8 is da bomb. Can't wait for Windows 9.

Crossing your fingers is the best option for you, as apparently holding a keyboard only shows that you are an idiot. Keep 'em crossed.
 
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89. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:12 Verno
 
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:02:
Don't make a metro app then. Don't make an iOS app either.

Make desktop applications/games instead.

It's not that simple, devs need to go where the market is and if the market moves toward metro apps then they will be forced to go along or struggle with alternatives.

I'm not sure why people think comparisons to iOS are favorable either, it's a closed and shitty platform flooded with crapware that Apple rules with a tight fist. I think we would all like Microsoft's store to be different. Croteam is probably complaining because of their negative experiences with other closed platforms.

I don't mind the closed system of Metro as long as I have the desktop.

On a basic "user needs" level now and in the future, I'd just like to retain the same ability to install and customize applications of my own choosing, whether they're Win32 or Metro. I am really puzzled why Microsoft has denied users the ability to sideload their own content, they could wipe out most peoples issues with the store by doing so. No one has presented a good excuse either, probably because one doesn't exist.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 02:18.
 
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88. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:05 ChandlerL
 
So I'm supposed to side with Croteam's chest-beating while they release games on the closed systems of Xbox 360, Apple iOS, and Sony PS3? Seems to me they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.

I don't mind the closed system of Metro as long as I have the desktop. And until such time as a Windows XY comes out that closes the platform completely, I don't have such obstacles to work and play. But the FUD is entertaining, nonetheless.
 
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87. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:05 Verno
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 01:45:
Had they released two different versions of Windows 8, one for tablets and one for desktops, it would have been so much smarter of them, at least from the UI perspective. It would have been so much more successful than it's ever going to be in it's current state.

I don't think that they needed to go that far but there's no reason that the operating system can't adapt itself to the device its running on. They already effectively do this for Windows Phone anyway. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of Metro Start and the Windows Store, they just suffer from design flaws and unnecessary restrictions.

There is no reason desktop users should be limited to two simultaneous Metro apps. There's no reason multimonitor users shouldn't be allowed to simply pin Metro start to a screen. Why are desktop users limited to preset resizing of Metro apps? People like Flood talk about the end user experience but don't seem to understand that one size does not fit all, Windows strength has traditionally been its adaptability after all.

A tablet and desktop interface are largely at odds with what they're trying to accomplish. A tablet is more of a consumption device with less input oriented tasks, display of information is constrained by smaller spaces and the hardware typically isn't very powerful and is more geared toward low power consumption so multitasking is sidelined. A desktop is practically the opposite in every regard, particularly when you get into multimonitor usage.

My easy fix to Windows 8 - fix the obvious design boo boos for desktop users and remove some of the Metro app restrictions. Allow users to sideload their own content if they wish, they can make it an unsupported flag that users have to manually enable if they want but just provide the option. This can be done, they do it already for Windows 8 Enterprise.
 
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86. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:04 DukeFNukem
 
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 01:59:
Windows8 is fine, perhaps the best MS OS ever on release. I have been waiting for a tablet, which could also run Windows Media Center, and stream live TV through the digital tuners I have on my network. A tablet, where I can plug in a Logitech controller through the USB port and play Trackmania Nations or Dirt2, or where I can run DOSBox and any number of classic games from GoG and run those in tablet mode.

I can't wait for Surface Pro or its Lenovo/Acer/Dell counterparts.

I have all my desktops upgraded to Windows8 at home.

As for Windows Store, there will always be desktop applications that can be purchased through traditional methods. I am not sure why Croteam considers the Windows store exclusivity as such a big surprise. Pretty much everyone knows it and those running digital download stores like Gabe Newell have voiced their complaints. For some reason Croteam didn't have any concerns attaching Serious Sam 3 tightly to Steamworks DRM, and limiting customer's choice.

In any case, no one has taken their ability to choose Steamworks, Windows Store, Origin or any other similar DRM method.


Yeah and I am waiting for a tablet that I can hook up my portable microwave and blender to when I go on road trips. Crossing my fingers and hoping that Windows 9 will allow me to do that. Windows 8 is da bomb. Can't wait for Windows 9.

Every thought about just selling all your desktop computers and buying a PlayStation 3 for your home gaming needs and a PSP for your portable gaming needs? Im not sure why someone like you even needs a computer.

You say that Steam limits people's choices in the same breath that you claim Windows 8 as the "finest MS OS release ever". If you don't get help at Charter, please, get help somewhere.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 02:13.
 
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85. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:02 Mashiki Amiketo
 
FloodAnxiety wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 01:36:
Average users never discover those places. Developers want exposure to non-techy folks to grow their market.
Wow. I hope you're joking, cnet, and other places like tucows and softpedia grew because of the non-techy folks. That's their bread and butter, us 'techy folks' have always been on places like sourceforge, github and codeplex.
 
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and it is always wrong."
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84. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:02 noman
 
Exactly correct. The point is, You can't just "make anything you want" anymore.

This fires a bullet into the head of nigh any material that's not Disney rated.

Want to have a controversial character who talks smack about religion(one of Square's games had this)? You don't pass certification.

Wanna amp up the violence, but in an "artistic" way? You might not pass certification.

Hey how about a horror title? You might not pass certification.

Don't make a metro app then. Don't make an iOS app either.

Make desktop applications/games instead.
 
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83. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 01:59 noman
 
Windows8 is fine, perhaps the best MS OS ever on release. I have been waiting for a tablet, which could also run Windows Media Center, and stream live TV through the digital tuners I have on my network. A tablet, where I can plug in a Logitech controller through the USB port and play Trackmania Nations or Dirt2, or where I can run DOSBox and any number of classic games from GoG and run those in tablet mode.

I can't wait for Surface Pro or its Lenovo/Acer/Dell counterparts.

I have all my desktops upgraded to Windows8 at home.

As for Windows Store, there will always be desktop applications that can be purchased through traditional methods. I am not sure why Croteam considers the Windows store exclusivity as such a big surprise. Pretty much everyone knows it and those running digital download stores like Gabe Newell have voiced their complaints. For some reason Croteam didn't have any concerns attaching Serious Sam 3 tightly to Steamworks DRM, and limiting customer's choice.

In any case, no one has taken their ability to choose Steamworks, Windows Store, Origin or any other similar DRM method.

 
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82. No subject Nov 18, 2012, 01:52 D_K_night
 
Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 17:05:
bigspender wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 16:52:
so whats the big deal? make your game anyway you want, and then release a separate tiled application to act as a live shortcut if you so want.

I doubt it would pass certification.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

Exactly correct. The point is, You can't just "make anything you want" anymore.

This fires a bullet into the head of nigh any material that's not Disney rated.

Want to have a controversial character who talks smack about religion(one of Square's games had this)? You don't pass certification.

Wanna amp up the violence, but in an "artistic" way? You might not pass certification.

Hey how about a horror title? You might not pass certification.
 
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81. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 01:45 DukeFNukem
 
@FloodAnxiety:

Average/end users already have an alternative to the desktop experience. It's called a tablet. I love Windows 7 and I have not purchased a tablet because I have no real reason to right now. The only reason I would ever purchase a tablet is for mobility. If I were to ever purchase a tablet I would probably purchase a Google Nexus 10. Microsoft isn't filling any deep needs with their Windows 8 tablets. It's simply another option on the table. The needs of desktop users far outweigh the needs of tablet users.

Microsoft could have simply released a Windows 8 tablet alone and made everybody happy. Tablet users are already happy, desktop users are already happy with Windows 7. Treating traditional desktop users and tablet users as though they are the same people was Microsoft's fatal mistake. It will be the final nail in their coffin.

Microsoft made a huge ****ng mistake by thrusting this Windows 8 tablet OS down traditional desktop users throats. Had they released two different versions of Windows 8, one for tablets and one for desktops, it would have been so much smarter of them, at least from the UI perspective. It would have been so much more successful than it's ever going to be in it's current state.

Now, you have a ton of businesses and home users playing the wait-and-see game. Waiting to see what Windows 9 will become. I won't touch Windows 8 with a 10-foot pole. I fear that Windows 7 was my last Windows operating system upgrade. I'll know in 3 years.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 01:56.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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80. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 01:36 FloodAnxiety
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 23:35:
So Windows 8 will close an app for if your not using it. Big whoopie do. How will it know whether you actually want an application left open or not? I keep hundreds of tabs open in my web browser, a PDF reader, NotePad++, Steam, SeaGate tools, etc. They run 24/7. They don't need to be closed. I DO NOT like this idea at all. Sounds like Microsoft wants to make every decision for the user now days...from the cradle to the ****ng grave.
For a well written app, an end user won't notice that the app has been terminated at all. Navigating or going back to the app will give the appearance that it was always running.

DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 23:35:
Furthermore, I actually enjoy getting popup windows from Adobe and other software. Forced updates are a bad idea. If the software changes in such a way that people don't WANT to upgrade to the latest version, what then?
There are no forced updates. Just a consistent way for the user to recieve all app updates.

DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 23:35:
Another bullshit so-called "PRO" of the Metro App store. All you are saying here is that it's good for small developers who aren't well known. Yet there are TONS of websites on the internet where small developers can promote their software. CNET is a great place for developers to have their software showcased.
Average users never discover those places. Developers want exposure to non-techy folks to grow their market.

DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 23:35:
An unresponsive application isn't a reason to contemplate suicide. Start the task manager and kill the application.
Average users don't know about task manager. A poorly designed unresponsive program is a not a good end user experience.

 
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79. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 00:43 Verno
 
Dev wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 23:47:
Pretty sure thats all the other users and reporters overreacting to what he says. I dont recall seeing Gabe say anything about it currently being a valid valve business alternative and an alternative for hardcore gamers.
For instance here's a quote from him:
"it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality."
Talking about windows 8 problems. He's saying he wants options. He's not saying that linux is magically going to replace windows.

And the linux thing has been in development for years at valve. You can see previous articles (I think at phoronix), where they mention this. Its taken so long because of the casual working on it and wheels on the desks thing at valve. Just that most people dismissed it previously.
Gabe is generally pretty upfront about what they are doing and what to expect. Just that a lot of people don't believe him. Like when he and others at valve talked about a flat management structure in a bunch of talks, many people repeatedly denied it when I pointed this out in posts. It took until their employee handbook "leaked" for some to admit it and even then some thought it was more a publicity stunt than actual reality.

Yeah exactly again. Gabe has a pretty good track record on long term vision, Valve has been ahead of the curve several times on major forefronts of gaming. If Gabe is worried and hedging his bets, I don't underestimate that. At the same time, he's not saying its going to kill off PC gaming tomorrow, he's just saying its a threat to the traditional way the gaming industry operates and needs to be addressed.
 
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78. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 00:34 Verno
 
Dades wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 00:11:
They could invalidate all of the concerns by letting people load their own apps. Why won't they let people do that? It does not compromise the integrity of their store and there is no reason other than potential lock in. I hear a lot of people willing to be optimistic here but not a single one of them has a decent answer for that.

Exactly. Is it really that unreasonable? Windows was built on being a relatively open ecosystem for application development, not so much like the open source movement but at least anyone can just start up with no costs or certs. Users can do what they want as it should be. People just want the same level of choice. I don't decry anyone who wants curated apps, whatever makes them happy and meets their needs. I just don't want their choices interfering with mine down the road and Microsoft could alleviate that by making their platform more like Android and less like Apple.

People like to paint all Windows 8 critics as Metro haters who just dislike change but the reality is that there are bigger things going on here that people are worried about. I think Microsoft knows where its bread is buttered and that desktop isn't going anywhere today but that doesn't mean they can't marginalize it and push the newer WinRT platform in a different direction to prepare for tomorrow.
 
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77. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 00:11 Dades
 
FloodAnxiety wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 21:17:
Game devs should not feel threatened by the windows 8 app store. They can still sell their desktop games the same way as they used to. They are only worried because if users start to gravitate to the app store they may stop purchasing desktop apps from other channels. If that does happen then that will only validate the direction they are going with the app store.

They could invalidate all of the concerns by letting people load their own apps. Why won't they let people do that? It does not compromise the integrity of their store and there is no reason other than potential lock in. I hear a lot of people willing to be optimistic here but not a single one of them has a decent answer for that.

The certification process is a necessary evil to ensure that end user gets a good quality experience from these apps.

No it isn't and it does not ensure one, see the many poor rated apps on any store.

As for the desktop experience in Windows 8; I don't miss the start button at all. Instead of having a roughly 50x50 hot spot for the mouse to click on, there is a 4x4 hot spot right in the corner. I know where the start button is, I don't need the wasted pixels on my taskbar to show the Windows Logo. Not that I use it much anyways, since the Windows key on the keyboard has always opened the start menu and still has the same function.

Hot corners are completely unintuitive, they have been attempted in user interfaces for decades and are a failed concept. It is no surprise they are one of the most maligned part of the metro experience. The start button is familiar and that's why microsoft has hijacked it for metro, a launching pad is something users need.

- The app can utilize more resources. All apps are required to properly support suspending and the possibility that the OS can terminate the app when it is not running. This means that an app store game can be a resource hog, and other open apps that are not running will get terminated if your app requires the resources used by that app.

Actually there are many, many restrictions on how apps can operate in WinRT including resource allocation. I'm also a bit incredulous that anyone would suggest app suspension is somehow a benefit to desktop users where power and resources aren't a large concern. There is some irony in that Windows gained its popularity for multitasking and is now in fact moving backwards in that regard. Metro apps also severely hamper display of information and interaction with multitasking due to the extremely low number of apps that can be run at the same time (2) and what sizes they can be shown in.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
 
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76. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 23:47 Dev
 
WaltC wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 21:20:
In Newell's case, he always has an ulterior reason for some of the crap he spews--he *knows* that Ubuntu 12.04 gaming business will not even come close to supporting Valve--yet he pretends it is some kind of alternative to Windows.
Pretty sure thats all the other users and reporters overreacting to what he says. I dont recall seeing Gabe say anything about it currently being a valid valve business alternative and an alternative for hardcore gamers.
For instance here's a quote from him:
"it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality."
Talking about windows 8 problems. He's saying he wants options. He's not saying that linux is magically going to replace windows.

And the linux thing has been in development for years at valve. You can see previous articles (I think at phoronix), where they mention this. Its taken so long because of the casual working on it and wheels on the desks thing at valve. Just that most people dismissed it previously.
Gabe is generally pretty upfront about what they are doing and what to expect. Just that a lot of people don't believe him. Like when he and others at valve talked about a flat management structure in a bunch of talks, many people repeatedly denied it when I pointed this out in posts. It took until their employee handbook "leaked" for some to admit it and even then some thought it was more a publicity stunt than actual reality.

FloodAnxiety wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 21:17:
Instead of having a roughly 50x50 hot spot for the mouse to click on, there is a 4x4 hot spot right in the corner. I know where the start button is, I don't need the wasted pixels on my taskbar to show the Windows Logo.
Yes, because there was never this thing to hide taskbar in previous windows.

This comment was edited on Nov 17, 2012, 23:56.
 
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75. Re: Wow... Nov 17, 2012, 23:37 wtf_man
 
Parallax Abstraction wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:08:
Anyone who thinks this exact kind of thing isn't coming to OS X is kidding themselves. Microsoft may have done it first but make no mistake, Apple wants in on this too. They can wait longer because they have a monopoly on the hardware market for their platform and have managed to convince people to overpay for hardware because tons of people just own Macs because they're fashionable but they want their cut of app sales on every platform just like Microsoft does.

I highly doubt it, and here's why... They have too many creative studios using OSX and software that runs on OSX, so OSX will always remain OSX.

What you are talking about... and what MAY happen... is they start introducing PURE IOS iMacs, Mac Minis, and Macbooks, all with touch screens. (except the mini)... eventually they'd phase out OSX like they did with OS9.

They will continue to add IOS-like features to OSX... but they aren't going to do what MS did to their OS (Basically pasting the mobile OS on top of the desktop). Once the IOS platform has enough horsepower in a majority of the devices... and professional apps start appearing... THAT is when they will phase out OSX... and that ain't gonna happen for several years.
 
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74. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 23:35 DukeFNukem
 
FloodAnxiety wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 21:17:
Game devs should not feel threatened by the windows 8 app store. They can still sell their desktop games the same way as they used to. They are only worried because if users start to gravitate to the app store they may stop purchasing desktop apps from other channels. If that does happen then that will only validate the direction they are going with the app store.

The certification process is a necessary evil to ensure that end user gets a good quality experience from these apps.

Here are some PROs of Windows 8 Store apps:

- The app can utilize more resources. All apps are required to properly support suspending and the possibility that the OS can terminate the app when it is not running. This means that an app store game can be a resource hog, and other open apps that are not running will get terminated if your app requires the resources used by that app.

So Windows 8 will close an app for if your not using it. Big whoopie do. How will it know whether you actually want an application left open or not? I keep hundreds of tabs open in my web browser, a PDF reader, NotePad++, Steam, SeaGate tools, etc. They run 24/7. They don't need to be closed. I DO NOT like this idea at all. Sounds like Microsoft wants to make every decision for the user now days...from the cradle to the ****ng grave.

- Consistent ways to update all of your apps. No more Quicktime/Adobe flash updaters pop ups and the corresponding services that are constantly running in the background checking for these updates.

Way to make a big deal about nothing. If an intelligent user wants to shut down a service and do manual updates he's free to do so. Unless the service running in the background is completely disrupting your OS experience, whats the problem? Furthermore, I actually enjoy getting popup windows from Adobe and other software. Forced updates are a bad idea. If the software changes in such a way that people don't WANT to upgrade to the latest version, what then?

- Security of the walled garden builds trust in the store and their apps. This will increase the number of users willing to take a chance on your software if you aren't a well known and trusted publisher.

Another bullshit so-called "PRO" of the Metro App store. All you are saying here is that it's good for small developers who aren't well known. Yet there are TONS of websites on the internet where small developers can promote their software. CNET is a great place for developers to have their software showcased.

- Installing an app can only install that app. No more hidden installations of google toolbar and other crap that you didn't ask for.

I didn't ask for the Metro UI on the latest version of Windows ...who's protecting me from that crap? How do I uninstall that?

- Simple and easy way to uninstall an app, and uninstall it cleanly. Most desktop software today will leave things behind, such as loose files and additions to the registry. Which contributes to the decline in performance and disk space of the PC after several years.

Oh my God. A loose file left behind on my 7200rpm SATA 6.0Gb/s 1TB hard disk drive???? The second return of Christ must be near!!! And last time I checked, Windows 7 still includes this neat little tool called "Disk Defragmenter".

- Apps that go unresponsive (the grey ghosting of the title bar you see in desktop apps) are terminated immediately. This raises the bar on developers to write responsive UIs.

An unresponsive application isn't a reason to contemplate suicide. Start the task manager and kill the application. A better way to have worded your point would have been to use the words "forces the developer" versus "raising the bar". Microsoft is very good at forcing things on people.

As for the desktop experience in Windows 8; I don't miss the start button at all. Instead of having a roughly 50x50 hot spot for the mouse to click on, there is a 4x4 hot spot right in the corner. I know where the start button is, I don't need the wasted pixels on my taskbar to show the Windows Logo. Not that I use it much anyways, since the Windows key on the keyboard has always opened the start menu and still has the same function.

Wow, that means if I upgrade to Windows 8 I can reclaim 2484 pixels of screen real-estate of a total 2,073,600 pixels on my 1920x1080 monitor for an actual savings of a number so insignificant I can't reprint it here. Yeah, I can see why people are "rushing" to upgrade to Windows 8. Hey, I got another tip for you. Get rid of your keyboard and mouse and buy a touchscreen-monitor(if you don't already have one). Think of the space you will save on your actual desk!!!

tldr; Lots of improvements all around. Devs should target the app store to reap the additional benefits it provides, or they can stick to the old way of doing things.

Every point in "FloodAnxiety"'s post was complete and total bullshit. Microsoft wants to coddle their users from the cradle to the grave. That means transferring more control away from the users and developers into the hands of Microsoft. Windows 8? No thanks. I'll stick to the "old" way of doing things.

People get all up-in-arms when they hear about bills like SOPA and PIPA because they don't want the government controlling and monitoring everything they do but somehow, its "A-Okay" if Microsoft controls everything on their desktop computer.

Windows 8 was the first step towards the home desktop PC becoming nothing more than a dumb terminal.

"People who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 01:35.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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