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Croteam on Windows 8 Issues

A post on the Steam Users' Forums from a couple of weeks ago offers a distressing overview of Windows 8 from Croteam (thanks Gamer's Hell), as Alen Ladavac says: "I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are 'under the hood' motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers." Saying "Gabe Newel did not overreact," he goes on to describe how "under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS." Here's more:

There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

* (Our footnote, not Alen's): He seems to have missed this story).

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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 3.
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113. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:18 Mashiki Amiketo
 
vrok wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:12:
Either you need to explain yourself, or you're really confused about what hot corners actually are.
That was supposed to be "without" sort of a joke, but with half a word missing it makes no sense.
 
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"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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112. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:14 NegaDeath
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 04:42:
Or my favorite reason that people quote for not upgrading to Windows 8 "I can't find my way around the new USER INTERFACE!!!" LOL.

That literally happened to me. The final straw on trying to use the new start screen was when I was listening to an mp3. I launched it from the desktop but told it to play on the start screen, I wanted to see if there were visual effects or something. It was unfortunately pretty basic. Then I went to try and close the song and I couldn't find the button or command. I could go back to the start screen but the mp3 was still open and playing. I could get back to the mp3 and stop the song but it was still open, I could see it on alt-tab. The only button that took it off the screen took me to xbox live where I got stuck again. I ended up going back to the desktop and killing the process in the task manager. And with that "metro" was permanently disabled on my machine. You guys probably know the answer to the problem I had, "gesture this" or "windows key that" or something. I've been using, and building, my PC's since the DOS days and that was the first time I couldn't figure out how to close something. Every other evolution of windows I had no issues learning. That told me everything I needed to know. I'm able to accept the idea that I'm simply stuck in my ways. My ways work though.
 
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111. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:12 vrok
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:02:
vrok wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:00:
Hot corners... Worst design for a desktop OS ever.
You know, we survived Win 3.0, 3.1 and all the way up to XP with hot corners.
Either you need to explain yourself, or you're really confused about what hot corners actually are.
 
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110. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:02 Mashiki Amiketo
 
vrok wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:00:
Hot corners... Worst design for a desktop OS ever.
You know, we survived Win 3.0, 3.1 and all the way up to XP with hot corners.
 
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"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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109. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:00 vrok
 
Hot corners... Worst design for a desktop OS ever.  
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108. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 04:58 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 04:43:
I've been running Win8 since it was released - It certainly seems like the superior OS to Win7 in just about every way (and Win7 was just fine).
It is better, but finding your way around the OS itself is a pain in the ass. But to be honest, it's a bit easier when you're drugged(go tramadol go) up a bit. Maybe because you're not thinking as clearly. Hah.

The UI does make it harder to get around especially after what? Almost 20 years of having a start menu, big change for a lot of people. Hell it took me nearly a month to figure my way around my smart phone.

Oh and superior? Speedwise? Yes. Other misc stuff? Yes. Some of the nitty gritty stuff, even better. Not so grindy at doing maintenance either. Hell, it said I needed to reinstall the language packs for japanese on my machine, but it did it for me. Oh and I said maintenance stuff? Yeah, maintenance stuff is much better than XP, Vista or even 7. I just got a notification that my "I:" drive(logical device 4) had corrupted blocks in it's file structure and needed to be repaired and that I should do a scan now to prevent data loss.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 05:08.
 
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"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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107. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 04:43 Fibrocyte
 
I've been running Win8 since it was released - It certainly seems like the superior OS to Win7 in just about every way (and Win7 was just fine).  
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106. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 04:42 Fibrocyte
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:17:
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:06:
Windows8 still has more changes compared to Windows7, than what Win7 had compared to Vista. The changes at kernel level are fairly substantial, and there are bunch of very useful new features (ISO mount, better SSD management, better printer stack, better network discovery, better desktop rendering with WDDM1.2, better alt-tab handling, better battery life on laptops, better AHCI support, native USB3, better file history feature, new storage space feature etc.) and it still takes less overall hardware resources than Win7.

Native ISO mount, seriously? Wow. It pains me to think what I have been missing out on all this time. So the Windows Media Center is gone by default but on the plus side I can still mount my DVD .ISOs. Sweet.

Uses less resources than Windows 7? Damn, imagine that. An operating system that was designed around and optimized for tablets using less system resources? Wonder if ripping out the Aero interface and replacing it with funky tiles had anything to do with that.

Most, if not all, of the features you mentioned regarding Windows 8 could have been implemented in a Windows 7 Service Pack. But that wouldn't make Microsoft very much money I guess.

But you forgot to mention my favorite reason that people quote for upgrading over Windows 7 in favor of Windows 8. "IT BOOTS FASTER!!!!!!! Ding, ding, ding ding. We have a winna!!!!" LOL.

Or my favorite reason that people quote for not upgrading to Windows 8 "I can't find my way around the new USER INTERFACE!!!" LOL.
 
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105. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 04:30 Mashiki Amiketo
 
NegaDeath wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:18:
Want to know whats really grinding my gears with 8? Aero glass is gone. Every other moronic decision they made is fixable with programs except that. What they have instead is bland, boring and flat. It shouldn't bother me as much as it does since its purely visual but every time I look at the screen it just looks wrong. "Leave the option in? Nah, we don't do the "options" thing anymore."

Edit: This makes me feel better
Yep I gotta agree, I like areo. I like it quite a bit, I just finished upgrading my gaming machine to Win8(since I got a copy for free from work). So far, so good. Everything works, including stuff that "isn't supposed to be compatible" like warcraft 3 and WC3TFT. No 3rd party software required.

Still deciding on whether or not I'll use start8 or not, or try working around on this. We've got half a dozen machines at work that have win8 on them now so I need to get used to them, but they're all for development and for people to screw around on. Well as long as the company keeps the KMS server up, I don't really care.

Verno wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:46:
I suspect its related to tablets and power consumption though which again brings up the whole point of why do desktop users have to keep making concessions for tablets. I get that tablets are an emerging market but there are billions of PCs and laptops in the world, make that shit an option.
No man you're probably spot on with that. Areo sucks up a good chunk of GPU power, around 10-25% depending. Which makes it stupidly power hungry on tablets and phones. They should have left it as an option, but I expect someone will figure out a way to hack n'slash it in, in a few months that is if someone already hasn't done it. The other side is, it's also detrimental to gaming performance. You know that whole bit with the driver restart? So the driver would be a force-restart instead of a BSOD 99/100 times for the OS. From what I understand one of the reasons why that was done was because of areo and games.

But that's simply a driver issue, and effects both nvidia and ati. If they ever got their heads out of their asses, maybe they could write something that wouldn't crash when you alt-tab and the card ran out of memory while thrashing against the disk.


Oh and anyone looking for a sc2 spectre razer mouse? You can grab one cheaply from ncix's pre-blackfriday sale. linky here for $29(reg. $79)

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 04:38.
 
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and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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104. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 03:46 Verno
 
NegaDeath wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:18:
Want to know whats really grinding my gears with 8? Aero glass is gone. Every other moronic decision they made is fixable with programs except that. What they have instead is bland, boring and flat. It shouldn't bother me as much as it does since its purely visual but every time I look at the screen it just looks wrong. "Leave the option in? Nah, we don't do the "options" thing anymore."

Agreed, it's really dumb that they put all of that work into it and just ditched it. Transparency was actually useful for window borders too, I have no idea why they don't allow it. I suspect its related to tablets and power consumption though which again brings up the whole point of why do desktop users have to keep making concessions for tablets. I get that tablets are an emerging market but there are billions of PCs and laptops in the world, make that shit an option.
 
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103. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 03:30 Verno
 
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:06:
Discussing problems is all well and good, but the melodramatics need to be toned down. The post from someone at Croteam doesn't serve any purpose, other than adding to Gabe's catastrophe comment. It doesn't even explain what their own stance on DRM is.

No, you have confused your own opinion that "all these stores are just DRM" with their statement. It's about the inability for users to load their own metro applications (games or otherwise) outside of the store and certification processes. You can argue that Steam and say the Xbox 360 have the same procedures but it's a different scenario when the company in charge is also creating the operating system. Croteam even noted that their concern is that this is just a first step. Paranoid? Maybe but the inability to load your own applications is troubling.

I can only speak for myself on that but I would be 100% fine with the store if they would just give me the ability to load my own things if I so choose. To me that's a pretty basic part of a desktop computer. Hell even Steam lets me put my own installed games into its library outside of its store front.

There is a big difference, one is owned by the company who makes the operating system and exercises a great deal of control including deciding whether or not to even allow those aforementioned applications compete on the Windows Store in the future.

Windows8 still has more changes compared to Windows7, than what Win7 had compared to Vista. The changes at kernel level are fairly substantial, and there are bunch of very useful new features (ISO mount, better SSD management, better printer stack, better network discovery, better desktop rendering with WDDM1.2, better alt-tab handling, better battery life on laptops, better AHCI support, native USB3, better file history feature, new storage space feature etc.) and it still takes less overall hardware resources than Win7.

Uh, lots of vagueness there and I've been using Windows 8 through out the previews to retail so I know it pretty well. That's practically a by line of the wikipedia bullet points and many of those are dubious vaguaries. "better alt tab" for example means nothing. The new WDDM is a non-feature. Storage Spaces has very poor performance and is rather half baked overall, I've played with it quite a bit as I was greatly anticipating replacing my ZFS raid at home. Better SSD management? It does exactly what Windows 7 does already in terms of detecting and applying SSD specific tweaks. Many of the kernel level improvements only apply to metro apps for example and the tickless kernel change is overstated by people grasping for positive features.

Now don't get me wrong, Windows 8 does have some minor improvements worth mentioning. The task manager and file copy dialog and buffering improvements are immediately apparent. I don't like the new ribbon for explorer but some people might find it useful. The printer spool now has some failsafes to prevent those annoying timeouts due to shitty drivers. I think however that most of the features are incredibly minor at best. To me the biggest thing Windows 8 has going for it is the price tag. It's cheap which is good because Windows 7 is not. So picking up a $15-40 copy of Windows 8 is pretty attractive given that if you don't like Metro there are third party options to disable it. I just don't think that outside of that there is a compelling upgrade reason.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 03:42.
 
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102. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 03:18 NegaDeath
 
Want to know whats really grinding my gears with 8? Aero glass is gone. Every other moronic decision they made is fixable with programs except that. What they have instead is bland, boring and flat. It shouldn't bother me as much as it does since its purely visual but every time I look at the screen it just looks wrong. "Leave the option in? Nah, we don't do the "options" thing anymore."

Edit: This makes me feel better

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 03:28.
 
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101. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 03:17 DukeFNukem
 
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:06:
Windows8 still has more changes compared to Windows7, than what Win7 had compared to Vista. The changes at kernel level are fairly substantial, and there are bunch of very useful new features (ISO mount, better SSD management, better printer stack, better network discovery, better desktop rendering with WDDM1.2, better alt-tab handling, better battery life on laptops, better AHCI support, native USB3, better file history feature, new storage space feature etc.) and it still takes less overall hardware resources than Win7.

Native ISO mount, seriously? Wow. It pains me to think what I have been missing out on all this time. So the Windows Media Center is gone by default but on the plus side I can still mount my DVD .ISOs. Sweet.

Uses less resources than Windows 7? Damn, imagine that. An operating system that was designed around and optimized for tablets using less system resources? Wonder if ripping out the Aero interface and replacing it with funky tiles had anything to do with that.

Most, if not all, of the features you mentioned regarding Windows 8 could have been implemented in a Windows 7 Service Pack. But that wouldn't make Microsoft very much money I guess.

But you forgot to mention my favorite reason that people quote for upgrading over Windows 7 in favor of Windows 8. "IT BOOTS FASTER!!!!!!! Ding, ding, ding ding. We have a winna!!!!" LOL.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 03:32.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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100. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 03:07 PropheT
 
FloodAnxiety wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 21:17:
Game devs should not feel threatened by the windows 8 app store. They can still sell their desktop games the same way as they used to. They are only worried because if users start to gravitate to the app store they may stop purchasing desktop apps from other channels. If that does happen then that will only validate the direction they are going with the app store.

The certification process is a necessary evil to ensure that end user gets a good quality experience from these apps.

Here are some PROs of Windows 8 Store apps:

- The app can utilize more resources. All apps are required to properly support suspending and the possibility that the OS can terminate the app when it is not running. This means that an app store game can be a resource hog, and other open apps that are not running will get terminated if your app requires the resources used by that app.
- Consistent ways to update all of your apps. No more Quicktime/Adobe flash updaters pop ups and the corresponding services that are constantly running in the background checking for these updates.
- Security of the walled garden builds trust in the store and their apps. This will increase the number of users willing to take a chance on your software if you aren't a well known and trusted publisher.
- Installing an app can only install that app. No more hidden installations of google toolbar and other crap that you didn't ask for.
- Simple and easy way to uninstall an app, and uninstall it cleanly. Most desktop software today will leave things behind, such as loose files and additions to the registry. Which contributes to the decline in performance and disk space of the PC after several years.
- Apps that go unresponsive (the grey ghosting of the title bar you see in desktop apps) are terminated immediately. This raises the bar on developers to write responsive UIs.

Classic desktop applications can still have a short cut tile on the start screen obviously. But the desktop app won't be able to take advantage of the above mentioned benefits of Windows Store Apps.

As for the desktop experience in Windows 8; I don't miss the start button at all. Instead of having a roughly 50x50 hot spot for the mouse to click on, there is a 4x4 hot spot right in the corner. I know where the start button is, I don't need the wasted pixels on my taskbar to show the Windows Logo. Not that I use it much anyways, since the Windows key on the keyboard has always opened the start menu and still has the same function.

tldr; Lots of improvements all around. Devs should target the app store to reap the additional benefits it provides, or they can stick to the old way of doing things.

It's important to look at what Gabe was talking about and the entire quote he gave about Win8; it wasn't just worries about Windows Store taking over marketspace for Steam, it was about tablet-based focus pushing OEM's out of the PC market either because of their ability to compete in that market with Win8-based systems or because of reduced demand for Win8 desktops as a result of tablet proliferation. There's already been desktop OEM's teetering on the brink as it is, so it's not going to take a huge push for this to come to fruition. Hell, Gabe worked for Microsoft for something like three of their early OS releases; it's not like he has a myopic picture of the entire scenario as just a video game developer who's never been part of the OS market.

It isn't and never was solely about Windows Store taking over and implementing a closed application space causing problems for or taking over for Steam (or whatever else).

As far as your points:

1) What Windows applications have historically not already been resource hogs? Windows has always worked in the past of allowing full access to available memory space to any active application, so the only real new functionality is automatically stopping running Metro apps to allow resources to be reclaimed for starting apps. On a desktop, there's 2 issues there; a) any up to date system already has a glut of memory or disk space anyway and b) this is only an issue because Win8 doesn't autoterminate the apps when you "exit" them, it just minimizes them to the side application bar for instant access later. Given that they're already accessible instantly via the original launch icons on the Start screen and the initialization times required by the certification process...there's no f'ing point to this. It's a complete non-issue, ever, on a normal desktop environment. It's a tablet feature thrust into irrelevance on a desktop.

2.) You will still get Quicktime/Flash updaters running in Windows 8, or any other software like them, because those applications are never going to be a requirement for Metro apps as they aren't and will never be integral to Windows. It's situations like Java; you can create something for the Windows Store that can use javascript, but something that requires 3rd part addons or plugins like JVM aren't going to work inside the sandbox...leaving you in the exact same place for these programs that you were in in Windows 7.

3.) I'm skipping the security one and rolling it into the next point you had, since they tie together. Installing an app can only install that app within that user space, but how much does that really mean when that constrained space is only useful for running the meaningless apps the store has? Most desktop content is still going to be launched in desktop space anyway. You might not get unwanted toolbars via the Windows Store, but the idea that you're now protected from them in any way whatsoever is really, really wrong. It's like saying you were protected from them in Windows 7 when installing sidebar gadgets; the two things are completely disconnected and neither represent the overall picture of what you're doing through normal use of the system. There is no scenario that will have any user operating a Win8 desktop independent of the normal desktop where those security concerns arise, and you aren't safer.

4.) Disk cleanup has been fixing left behind files for years, and you're still going to have leftover registry entries and customization/profile files because again...the vast majority of applications on the system aren't going to run in the sandbox. I can't think of a single productivity tool or even entertainment that I used before that has been or likely will be completely replaced by a Windows Store application; meaning this has not changed, at all. Not that is has been a problem in recent memory anyway.

5) Lastly, the hot spot, the start button, the Windows key, and the Start/Metro screen are not replacements for the Start Menu as it existed in older versions of Windows. That's the All Apps button on the right click menu on that screen, the one that shows all installed applications by category... and it's f'ing terrible, really terrible, and the only reason I can see why is to force the newer usage of the Search function for application launch. The Start/Metro screen, whatever someone wants to call it now, is not a Start Menu replacement; it's an alternate desktop with a combination of quick-launch mini-apps a la the Gadget Bar and pinned-to-Start applications just like desktop shortcuts.

Bottom line is, devs aren't going to target the app store because of the constraints that it applies. There's no point in forcing yourself into both those constraints and the certification process for an application that is targeted for desktop use; pretty much everything that's out there now and that's coming soon is designed around a tablet environment. I also personally question the use of these apps in the first place, as they're all stripped down baby versions of real programs that you can access from the desktop instead...the only reason these apps have been appealing in the past is because they were on tablets that made them appealing because of their very different usage.

There are improvements in Windows 8, but most of them are hit or miss, often clunky UI changes and an app store that is doomed to irrelevance because of the tablet-focused constraints enforced there. The new Start screen was a passing curiosity that is almost completely forgotten in everyday use of the system; pretty, but a hindrance to efficient work.





 
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99. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 03:06 noman
 
Verno wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:39:
Just because something isn't new doesn't mean people can't discuss the problems associated. I'm not sure why you think people just all need to run in the opposite direction any time they have an issue with something either, particularly when they're a business that needs to serve its customers wherever they might exist.

Discussing problems is all well and good, but the melodramatics need to be toned down. The post from someone at Croteam doesn't serve any purpose, other than adding to Gabe's catastrophe comment. It doesn't even explain what their own stance on DRM is.

There is a big difference, one is owned by the company who makes the operating system and exercises a great deal of control including deciding whether or not to even allow those aforementioned applications compete on the Windows Store in the future.

Until the time comes when Windows Store is the only way to get applications on Windows, there's no difference between Steam, Origin, Uplay and Windows Store.

Microsoft also has a lot of control over the direction the market will move in the future and this exactly because they basically forced and frontloaded their own store.

Every single digital retailer likes to push their store. Steamworks, Uplay, Origin and Windows Store all force their store on to other retailers.

Windows 8 should be great, it's largely Windows 7 with some minor improvements. I would word the Metro stuff differently, that's putting it mildly.

Windows8 still has more changes compared to Windows7, than what Win7 had compared to Vista. The changes at kernel level are fairly substantial, and there are bunch of very useful new features (ISO mount, better SSD management, better printer stack, better network discovery, better desktop rendering with WDDM1.2, better alt-tab handling, better battery life on laptops, better AHCI support, native USB3, better file history feature, new storage space feature etc.) and it still takes less overall hardware resources than Win7.
 
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98. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:46 TheVocalMinority
 
Verno wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:05:
People like Flood...

Those would be shills.
Come on the cut and paste of in the original post was pretty obvious.
 
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97. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 18, 2012, 02:45 noman
 
HorrorScope wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 22:04:
I know we always say the Start button. But isn't there also a Tile vs Desktop Icon behavior change as well? A lot of people were plenty fine with Desktop Icons which could be as stylish if not more so on a very sexy backdrop. To me it isn't just losing Start.

There's no change. You can use desktop, shortcuts, pinned applications and jump lists on task bar, and all that works same or better than Windows7.
 
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96. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:39 Verno
 
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:25:
The comparisons to Apple or Steam are there to show that this is hardly a new thing. Forced DRM has been here for so long, that there are even fanboys out there for DRM methods (such as Steam) Half the people dissing Windows Store have no problems purchasing Steamworks games that shove the entire Valve's store into other retail and digital store services.

Just because something isn't new doesn't mean people can't discuss the problems associated. I'm not sure why you think people just all need to run in the opposite direction any time they have an issue with something either, particularly when they're a business that needs to serve its customers wherever they might exist.

For me, there's no difference between Origin, Steam, Uplay or Windows Store. I don't mind trying free games from any of these services and very rarely do I pay full (or even half price) for the products they are selling.

There is a big difference, one is owned by the company who makes the operating system and exercises a great deal of control including deciding whether or not to even allow those aforementioned applications compete on the Windows Store in the future. Microsoft also has a lot of control over the direction the market will move in the future and this exactly because they basically forced and frontloaded their own store. A more apt comparison of "DRM game stores" would be all of those services and GFWL which largely failed because Microsoft had to compete fairly and basically wasn't interested in putting in the effort.

Windows8 is indeed great, and while the metro interface can have substantial improvement on desktop, it still works quite well for a lot of metro apps already, and the desktop interface is all there in any case.

Windows 8 should be great, it's largely Windows 7 with some minor improvements. I would word the Metro stuff differently, that's putting it mildly. It is a pretty mediocre experience for desktop users and has very poor discoverability as a user interface. It need serious improvement.

I have no inherent problem with what Microsoft is trying to accomplish with Windows 8, it's just how they are doing it that sucks.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 02:46.
 
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95. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:36 DukeFNukem
 
noman wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:34:
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:32:
You can't fix what's not broken. You wanna fix Windows 8? Done. Format C: and install Windows 7. Windows 8 fixed.

Another fix is to actually install it and use for more than half an hour before joining the bandwagon.

Just for your information I never jumped on the bandwagon. I am the one who's been pulling the wagon from the first day I heard about Windows 8.

"If it looks like a turd, and it smells like a turd, it's probably a turd." If you need to taste shit to verify that's it shit go ahead. I'll just stick to what my senses are telling me.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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94. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 02:34 noman
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:32:
You can't fix what's not broken. You wanna fix Windows 8? Done. Format C: and install Windows 7. Windows 8 fixed.

Another fix is to actually install it and use for more than half an hour before joining the bandwagon.
 
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