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Croteam on Windows 8 Issues

A post on the Steam Users' Forums from a couple of weeks ago offers a distressing overview of Windows 8 from Croteam (thanks Gamer's Hell), as Alen Ladavac says: "I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are 'under the hood' motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers." Saying "Gabe Newel did not overreact," he goes on to describe how "under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS." Here's more:

There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

* (Our footnote, not Alen's): He seems to have missed this story).

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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 2.
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133. Re: hmmmm Nov 18, 2012, 09:58 Fibrocyte
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:47:
Shataan wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:36:
I game primarilly.

Is Win 8 optimized for PC gaming???? If not, I`ll stick with Win 7.

Vista arrived, I stuck with WinXP. No loss there. Ya know, I saw tons of peeps who didn`t like WinME. Dunno why. It was a system you could easilly tweak for performance. I had no problems with it at all.


Why not just buy a PS3 or an XBox console if you just want to play optimized video games. You can even surf the internet on each system unless I am mistaken. Why even bother with an operating system? Your gonna bring everybody else down with you who hates Windows 8 by purchasing it, which will send Microsoft the wrong message, so you can play video games?

Who gives a frogs fat ass if it "is" optimized for video games. I'll tell you what I know it "is" optimized for and that is "tablets". Game over.

My favorite part was the ending where you say "Game over."
 
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132. Re: hmmmm Nov 18, 2012, 09:47 DukeFNukem
 
Shataan wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:36:
I game primarilly.

Is Win 8 optimized for PC gaming???? If not, I`ll stick with Win 7.

Vista arrived, I stuck with WinXP. No loss there. Ya know, I saw tons of peeps who didn`t like WinME. Dunno why. It was a system you could easilly tweak for performance. I had no problems with it at all.


Why not just buy a PS3 or an XBox console if you just want to play optimized video games. You can even surf the internet on each system unless I am mistaken. Why even bother with an operating system? Your gonna bring everybody else down with you who hates Windows 8 by purchasing it, which will send Microsoft the wrong message, so you can play video games?

Who gives a frogs fat ass if it "is" optimized for video games. I'll tell you what I know it "is" optimized for and that is "tablets". Game over.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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131. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:39 Fibrocyte
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:36:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:28:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:23:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.

Someone asking if that was serious or not, obviously is one of the guys he mentioned... lol

LOL! Oh Beaver... you're the wittiest!

Thanks for confirming me!

Allthumbsup
 
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130. Re: hmmmm Nov 18, 2012, 09:38 Muscular Beaver
 
Shataan wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:36:
I game primarilly.

Is Win 8 optimized for PC gaming???? If not, I`ll stick with Win 7.

Vista arrived, I stuck with WinXP. No loss there. Ya know, I saw tons of peeps who didn`t like WinME. Dunno why. It was a system you could easilly tweak for performance. I had no problems with it at all.


Ya dude, I liked especially the nice blue desktop it had, though I hated the bug when that desktop was almost always in the foreground and you couldnt do anything anymore!
 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
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129. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:36 Muscular Beaver
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:28:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:23:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.

Someone asking if that was serious or not, obviously is one of the guys he mentioned... lol

LOL! Oh Beaver... you're the wittiest!

Thanks for confirming me!
 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
128. hmmmm Nov 18, 2012, 09:36 Shataan
 
I game primarilly.

Is Win 8 optimized for PC gaming???? If not, I`ll stick with Win 7.

Vista arrived, I stuck with WinXP. No loss there. Ya know, I saw tons of peeps who didn`t like WinME. Dunno why. It was a system you could easilly tweak for performance. I had no problems with it at all.

 
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127. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:29 Fibrocyte
 
Dev wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:22:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.
BTW, if you go look in previous win 8 threads, you CAN find at least one or two ppl who defend win ME as one of the best windows. They DO exist.

I don't doubt that at all. But to compare Win8 to the WinME debacle is asinine.
 
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126. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:28 Fibrocyte
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:23:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.

Someone asking if that was serious or not, obviously is one of the guys he mentioned... lol

LOL! Oh Beaver... you're the wittiest!
 
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125. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:23 Muscular Beaver
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.

Someone asking if that was serious or not, obviously is one of the guys he mentioned... lol
 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
124. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:22 Dev
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.
BTW, if you go look in previous win 8 threads, you CAN find at least one or two ppl who defend win ME as one of the best windows. They DO exist.
 
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123. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 09:15 Fibrocyte
 
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.
 
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122. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 08:27 Soulburner
 
I like Windows 8 and I'm not a new poster. Also, I've been visiting Bluesnews daily since... I don't know, 2001?

Windows 8 has some very nice improvements on the desktop. The ribbon in explorer is surprisingly useful, the new file copy dialogs are a great improvement. Under-the-hood improvements in Win8 are also very good. The system feels a lot more responsive than Win7. The "Metro" interface is also a nice thing - you just have to get used to it. And once you do, it makes sense.

I remember Windows 7 not being such a success we are made to believe today. I recall people posting on forums how stupid and useless the new taskbar is. That is huge, that there is no separate quicklaunch bar and the Internet was full of tricks how to bring the pre-7 functionality back. Windows 8 is not much different.

I do, however, think that closing the Modern UI apps only to the Windows App Store is a bad idea. I'd be okay with it on Windows RT devices, but all x86/x64 editions should allow "sideloading" of apps. The app store would be a source for certified apps only.

So I understand why Gabe Newell and others criticize Windows 8 so much and I agree with them. That doesn't make Windows 8 itself a bad OS, though.
 
Avatar 43517
 
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121. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 07:53 ASeven
 
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.  
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120. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 07:33 Julio
 
Once again I see lots of brand new posters that are pro-Win8 (aka microsoft shills). No windows 8 for me ever, I can see the end game which is a completely walled off windows ecosystem. My PC might as well be a PS3 if that happens.  
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119. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 06:51 loomy
 
> For me, there's no difference between Origin, Steam, Uplay or Windows Store.

the difference is Origin, Steam, and Uplay don't have the ability to one day stop you from using Windows Store.

when was the last time anybody gave a shit about freedom on an iphone? not very often because the people who are happy with the iphone ecosystem don't know what a walled garden is and don't mind being part of a monopoly. they don't mind everything they see and do being filtered by one company. that is what this is about. if microsoft becomes like apple it will be a negative regression into the dark ages.

the future is freedom unless you're a fucking farm animal. jesus h christ these apologists
 
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118. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:56 Prez
 
Verno wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 02:39:
For me, there's no difference between Origin, Steam, Uplay or Windows Store. I don't mind trying free games from any of these services and very rarely do I pay full (or even half price) for the products they are selling.

There is a big difference, one is owned by the company who makes the operating system and exercises a great deal of control including deciding whether or not to even allow those aforementioned applications compete on the Windows Store in the future. Microsoft also has a lot of control over the direction the market will move in the future and this exactly because they basically forced and frontloaded their own store. A more apt comparison of "DRM game stores" would be all of those services and GFWL which largely failed because Microsoft had to compete fairly and basically wasn't interested in putting in the effort.

People who continually make this erroneous comparison must be trying to NOT see the difference. It's blatantly obvious - the comparison doesn't pass muster under even the tiniest of scrutiny.

 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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117. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:54 NegaDeath
 
On second glance alt-f4 doesn't do it. It takes you away from the screen but the process is still taking up memory. Same thing with dragging, using corners, etc. Whatever the answer is I don't care anymore, I really am done with it this time. The last time I got this pissed with windows it was a major system corruption failure. I'm tempted to revert back to 7 out of spite, utterly useless yet still self gratifying spite. Bedtime.  
Avatar 57352
 
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116. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:32 Mashiki Amiketo
 
NegaDeath wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:28:

Apparently the shortcuts are different as alt + x doesn't work. If they even use shortcuts. I just tried it again and I still have no f'ing clue how to close it.

I was tempted to try fist + screen but decided against it Tongue
alt+f4 apparently works, I just tried. I don't really have much time to play around with anything else with the drugs making me doped out so I'll screw around tomorrow and see if there's something else. But alt+f4 does seem to force close any app that's open still including that bloody xbox thingy.

also left corner up or down will let you swing back to whatever your'e working on. dragging in the area where it's playing will also let you make a custom work/tileset.

This will probably help:
100 windows 8 keyboard shortcuts

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 05:42.
 
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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115. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:28 NegaDeath
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:20:
Really MS could get around this by giving people a list of quick keyboard shortcuts when the installer is first being setup. Though to be honest, I've almost never used them up until 8.

Apparently the shortcuts are different as alt + x doesn't work. If they even use shortcuts. I just tried it again and I still have no f'ing clue how to close it.

I was tempted to try fist + screen but decided against it Tongue

Edit: Ok I tried it one more time and this is really pissing me off now. Esc doesn't work, backspace takes me to that stupid xbox live screen, no right click option, back button on mouse doesn't do it. Even tried the old ctrl-break command as a lark. Someone please explain it to my senile brain.

Edit: And Mashiki gets the 10 pts. Alt-F4 does it. That can't seriously be the only way though can it? Even MS isn't that crazy.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 05:35.
 
Avatar 57352
 
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114. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 05:20 Mashiki Amiketo
 
NegaDeath wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 05:14:
Every other evolution of windows I had no issues learning. That told me everything I needed to know. I'm able to accept the idea that I'm simply stuck in my ways. My ways work though.
Really MS could get around this by giving people a list of quick keyboard shortcuts when the installer is first being setup. Though to be honest, I've almost never used them up until 8.
 
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 2.
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