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Croteam on Windows 8 Issues

A post on the Steam Users' Forums from a couple of weeks ago offers a distressing overview of Windows 8 from Croteam (thanks Gamer's Hell), as Alen Ladavac says: "I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are 'under the hood' motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers." Saying "Gabe Newel did not overreact," he goes on to describe how "under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS." Here's more:

There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

* (Our footnote, not Alen's): He seems to have missed this story).

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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 1.
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153. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 19, 2012, 14:51 theyarecomingforyou
 
John wrote on Nov 19, 2012, 10:37:
So you actually bought WinME and Vista?
I certainly did. WinME was a mistake - I bought the upgrade and it crashed when I first went to install it. I ended up having lots of driver and stability issues, so I ended up going back to Win98SE. As for Vista, I was very happy with it - most games performed faster and it was a huge improvement on the desktop (well, it's what Win7 was based on). It was only really slower systems that had issues with it.

I've bought every consumer version of Windows since 3.1 and being an early upgrader has improved with every release, to the point where I haven't found anything incompatible with Windows 8 yet (undoubtedly there is a lot of software but nothing that I use).
 
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152. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 19, 2012, 10:49 morose
 
Huh. I've been using Windows 8 for a couple of weeks now with no issues at all. I run absolutely whatever software I feel like on it. Yeah, I played with the tiled/Metro/modern UI for about an hour... then shelved it. It's a fun option and I like how it presents a more usable interface for touch based devices, but 95% of the time I log in and drop straight to desktop. I certainly don't feel like it hinders my experience to have it out there as an option though. *shrug*  
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151. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 19, 2012, 10:37 John
 
Gib007 wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:59:
All I know is that I have always updated Windows to the latest version almost immediately upon availability. All the way from Windows 95 to Windows 7. With Windows 8 however - no thanks mate!
So you actually bought WinME and Vista?
 
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150. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 19, 2012, 02:03 Muscular Beaver
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:17:
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:10:
Zetler wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 10:52:
Right, we should fight Windows 8 because Steam is not a walled garden at all and represent freedom am I right folks? LOL. There's much irony in this.

No one is forcing you to download and use Steam. Windows 8 is stripping away freedom, choice, and power, in more ways than just one.

I don't understand why all the people who love Windows 8 don't just go out and buy themselves a tablet. What makes Windows 8 so much more compelling than Windows 7. "It boots faster". Okay, get a tablet. They boot even faster. "Its more secure". Ok, get a tablet. Its more secure than Windows 7. There is virtually no compelling reason for Windows 7 users to upgrade to Windows 8. Yet there are many reasons to avoid this catastrophe. The stripping away of choice, freedom, flexibility, and power are many of the reasons I will not even look at Windows 8 lest I begin puking.

"It boots faster." You keep saying that. Is that really the only advantage you're aware of? Hell, even in this cess pool of comments there are a few more called out.

All I'm saying in tone down your tantrum until you've educated yourself a little or you're going to end up looking as bad as ASeven.

Its supposed to work with touch devices. Specifically designed for them, they say so proudly. I was excited when I heard that, since I am using a car pc. I tried it and guess what? MINIMUM RESOLUTION 1024x768. Useless for any car pc, unless its in a huge van or truck with like a 10" screen. 800x480 is standard there, because everything bigger doesnt make sense.

Also I was excited about the new UVC standard. Yay, finally no more CPU usage when recording from a webcam that uses an internal encoder.
Tried it. Doesnt work. Black picture as soon as you start recording. Guess some fucking retarded way of DRM.

I also hoped they would learn from their mistakes in Vista and 7, by going back to the sound system in XP, or at least to something that had the features of it, like playing the same source simultaneously over 2 outputs, since so many people complain about it. Nope. Nothing. Still the shitty system they used before. Not even sound quality has improved, you still need to use ASIO or similar if you want proper quality.

I could care less about a little better multi monitor support (actually worse in some aspects) or better virtualization, and you know VERY WELL that most people dont either.
 
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149. Re: hmmmm Nov 18, 2012, 16:35 DukeFNukem
 
Shataan wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 15:15:
"Why not just buy a PS3 or an XBox console if you just want to play optimized video games."

Cause I am a PC gamer for years, and tbh loathe consoles. And if you personally don`t care about gaming on PC wtf are you here commenting on a gaming site?

So as a PC gamer for years, for YOU I should just bend over and go console? Naaaah I think I`ll just be myself and buy what I feel meets my needs, and not buy what doesn`t. It has worked great for me so far. If M$ wants my dough, they can earn my dough. A good way to start is by delivering an O/S that as a PC gamer, I find attractive.

I do care about gaming on PC as part of the overall operating system capabilities. However, unlike you I have no gripes about anything related to gaming on Windows 7.

Your gonna bend over one way or the other. You bending over for Microsoft if you purchase Windows 8 or an XBox console. They got you either way. So lube yourself up good and pray it doesn't hurt too much.

But just out of curiosity, what exactly does Windows 7 lack from a gaming perspective...how is it not "meeting your needs"? I still can't understand why if all your looking for is optimized video games, why you wouldn't embrace a console. They even have web browsers and ability to watch DVDs and blu-rays. What exactly do you need a PC for?

This is the problem with Windows 8. It doesn't fulfill anybody's needs in the consumer space that aren't already being met somewhere else. Yet it manages to alienate people who have used it faithfully for the past several years. Not a really smart decision in my opinion but they got one more chances to make it right. If this catastrophe isn't fixed by Windows 9, that's right, game over!!!

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 16:42.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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148. Re: hmmmm Nov 18, 2012, 15:15 Shataan
 
"Why not just buy a PS3 or an XBox console if you just want to play optimized video games."

Cause I am a PC gamer for years, and tbh loathe consoles. And if you personally don`t care about gaming on PC wtf are you here commenting on a gaming site?

So as a PC gamer for years, for YOU I should just bend over and go console? Naaaah I think I`ll just be myself and buy what I feel meets my needs, and not buy what doesn`t. It has worked great for me so far. If M$ wants my dough, they can earn my dough. A good way to start is by delivering an O/S that as a PC gamer, I find attractive.
 
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147. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 14:51 Julio
 
Zetler wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 10:52:
Right, we should fight Windows 8 because Steam is not a walled garden at all and represent freedom am I right folks? LOL. There's much irony in this.

I hate Steam too, and don't buy anything on it. Gog for the win.
 
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146. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 13:22 DukeFNukem
 
deqer wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 12:49:
I think that the more people say this, then the more Microsoft hears it and therefore Microsoft will begin to push for an earlier cancellation date of support service for windows 7 thus forcing everyone to upgrade. Yup; you can't win against corps.

This is the dumbest thing I heard. Microsoft can only survive if people buy their software. It's weak minded people with this mentality who cause us all to suffer. People who have no patience to hold out for something better. People who buy Windows 8 because they think they have no choice. People who settle for Windows 8 instead of demanding something better. Microsoft customers are the ones who decide the future and fate of Windows operating systems. If you just cannot imagine life without Windows 8, then by all means go out and purchase it. The sad part is that if you love Windows 8 your probably somebody who would have been just as happy with the purchase of a tablet but go ahead and buy Windows 8 and screw us all.

I am boycotting Windows until I get what I deserve. The desktop should be the sun that Windows 8 orbits around. Not the cockroach allowed to eat breadcrumbs from the kitchen table. No sale. Collectively, the consumer, has more power than Microsoft. But if you settle for Windows 8 its your own fault.

There is no forcing me into an upgrade of Windows 8. I would sooner purchase a Google Nexus 10 tablet than Windows 8. At least its not pretending to be something that it isn't. If Windows 9 isn't everything it should be, Im done. Game over. (That's for Fibrocyte).

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 14:04.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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145. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 13:07 Shok
 
It all boils down to an open platform. I can get used to the Win8 interface but if I support this OS now then that gives MS no reason to keep the platform open in the future.

Of course in a decade or so we'll all be using tablets and just downloading the Win7 emulator app
 
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144. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 12:56 nin
 
deqer wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 12:49:
Gib007 wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:59:
Sticking with Windows 7 64-Bit until the abomination that is Windows 8 is massively changed or Windows 9
I think that the more people say this, then the more Microsoft hears it and therefore Microsoft will begin to push for an earlier cancellation date of support service for windows 7 thus forcing everyone to upgrade. Yup; you can't win against corps.


You mean like they did with XP? Wait, that's not what happened at all.

 
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143. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 12:49 deqer
 
Gib007 wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:59:
Sticking with Windows 7 64-Bit until the abomination that is Windows 8 is massively changed or Windows 9
I think that the more people say this, then the more Microsoft hears it and therefore Microsoft will begin to push for an earlier cancellation date of support service for windows 7 thus forcing everyone to upgrade. Yup; you can't win against corps.
 
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142. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 11:59 Gib007
 
All I know is that I have always updated Windows to the latest version almost immediately upon availability. All the way from Windows 95 to Windows 7. With Windows 8 however - no thanks mate!
Sticking with Windows 7 64-Bit until the abomination that is Windows 8 is massively changed or Windows 9 comes out and makes Windows 8 look like what Windows 7 made Windows Vista look like.
 
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141. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 11:35 DukeFNukem
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:17:

"It boots faster." You keep saying that. Is that really the only advantage you're aware of? Hell, even in this cess pool of comments there are a few more called out.

All I'm saying in tone down your tantrum until you've educated yourself a little or you're going to end up looking as bad as ASeven.

Right...and the reason I keep saying it is because you hear that same mantra repeated over and over and over from the pro Windows 8 crowd. Clearly, it must be the #1 compelling reason for most people upgrading to Windows 8 based upon how many times I see it being written in various places on the internet. I don't hear people saying, "Dude, you gotta upgrade to Windows 8 cuz it's got native ISO support".

Most of the so-called advantages you speak of are simply bullet points that would be good for posting on the back of the box. Most of them are laughable. Faster boot times is one of those laughable bullet points for upgrading. Native ISO support is another laughable so-called advantage. It takes all of 3 minutes to download and install software that can do this.

Windows-to-go anybody? Yeah, can already be done with Windows 7 with your choice of any number of software packages.

Native USB 3.0 support? We can group this one with native ISO support.

When you make the suggestion that I "educate myself" would I be correct in translating your suggestion into downloading and installing Windows 8 and using it for a trail period until I become accustomed to what it has to offer? Sort of that, "try it, you'll like it" mentality?

And just to be clear, I would have gladly accepted all the little improvements Windows 8 had to offer, had Microsoft not given us desktop users the middle finger. So, now Im gonna give it right back .!.. Thats for you Microsoft! Ballmer is gonna have to pry this keyboard and mouse out of my cold dead hands.

I am fully aware of what Windows 8 is. No thanks. Or as one other person said it so well, "Me no buy."

ďHe that can have patience can have what he will.Ē -- Benjamin Franklin

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 12:22.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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140. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 11:28 wtf_man
 
NegaDeath wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 03:18:
Want to know whats really grinding my gears with 8? Aero glass is gone. Every other moronic decision they made is fixable with programs except that. What they have instead is bland, boring and flat. It shouldn't bother me as much as it does since its purely visual but every time I look at the screen it just looks wrong. "Leave the option in? Nah, we don't do the "options" thing anymore."

Edit: This makes me feel better

It amazes me that in that article MS is blaming OEMs "failing to deliver". They just don't get it... as well as the new shills posting here don't get it, either.

MOST DESKTOP USERS HATE THE TILE INTERFACE AND DON'T WANT IT FORCED ON THEM. PERIOD.

I mean, get a fucking clue.

...and yes, I put Win 8 on a test machine from my technet account and used it way more than a half an hour (several months, as a matter of fact, with different builds)... so don't give me that "gotta get used to it" bullshit. There is NO "getting used to it", if one outright HATES it. We're not going to deploy that piece of shit to over 1500 machines and confuse our users. We're steering clear of Server 2012 too. Everything is getting virtualized with VMWare, and more and more *nix is making its way into our data center. Microsoft is becoming irrelevant in what was a prominently dominant windows shop. Way to go Balmer and Team!!!

From MS's #1 Shill, Paul Thurrott (linked from the previous article)
Windows 8. Itís a floor wax. No, itís a dessert topping. Microsoftís new whatever-the-F-it-is operating system is a confusing, Frankensteinís monster mix of old and new that hides a great desktop upgrade under a crazy Metro front-end. Itís touch-first, as Microsoft says, but really itís touch whether you want it or not (or have it or not), and the firmís inability to give its own customers the choice to pick which UI they want is what really makes Windows 8 confounding to users. I actually like Windows 8 quite a bit and canít imagine switching back. But I do understand the complaints of customers who arenít getting what they wanted or asked for.

Even a shill knows that not having a choice in the UI is a major fuck up.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 12:48.
 
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139. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 18, 2012, 11:19 HorrorScope
 
MS can't help limiting us. They think we are our own worst enemy. Search being another part of the whole "we want to control you" plan.

Each version being more limited, it doesn't matter if you are an basic admin or not. They limit what they will show you on a c:\ root search and their searches are slow for no user friendly reason.

For example:
Windows Search c:\ *.log - my results 232 files in ~15 seconds

Use "Everything" search:
Results 354 files in under 1 second

They hinder you by speed and what folders they will allow you to search. As a power pc user, I want access to every file if I choose and the faster the better. I don't want artificially slow apps like MS gives us, to control us.

All part of the same thing and that is to hide and embed DRM apps.

I'm still old fashion in having a folder hold everything for that particular app, no reg for apps eateries, no user, doc-settings folders for segregated file storage. Sure there are some arguments against every for an app in one folder, which to me are minor. But having each app in full in it's own folder is much more elegant and understanding to simpletons.

For user data files, they could have made a sub-folder rule for user data, where each app saves user data withing it's own sub-folder. For system backups, it would search and backup all userdata folders on a system. That said, I much prefer ghost type backups any way, the current folder setup of windows being one reason why, I know I got everything with ghosting.
 
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138. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 11:17 Fibrocyte
 
DukeFNukem wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 11:10:
Zetler wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 10:52:
Right, we should fight Windows 8 because Steam is not a walled garden at all and represent freedom am I right folks? LOL. There's much irony in this.

No one is forcing you to download and use Steam. Windows 8 is stripping away freedom, choice, and power, in more ways than just one.

I don't understand why all the people who love Windows 8 don't just go out and buy themselves a tablet. What makes Windows 8 so much more compelling than Windows 7. "It boots faster". Okay, get a tablet. They boot even faster. "Its more secure". Ok, get a tablet. Its more secure than Windows 7. There is virtually no compelling reason for Windows 7 users to upgrade to Windows 8. Yet there are many reasons to avoid this catastrophe. The stripping away of choice, freedom, flexibility, and power are many of the reasons I will not even look at Windows 8 lest I begin puking.

"It boots faster." You keep saying that. Is that really the only advantage you're aware of? Hell, even in this cess pool of comments there are a few more called out.

All I'm saying in tone down your tantrum until you've educated yourself a little or you're going to end up looking as bad as ASeven.
 
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137. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 11:10 DukeFNukem
 
Zetler wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 10:52:
Right, we should fight Windows 8 because Steam is not a walled garden at all and represent freedom am I right folks? LOL. There's much irony in this.

No one is forcing you to download and use Steam. Windows 8 is stripping away freedom, choice, and power, in more ways than just one.

I don't understand why all the people who love Windows 8 don't just go out and buy themselves a tablet. How about a lovely(**cough cough**) Windows 8 Surface tablet? What makes Windows 8 so much more compelling than Windows 7. "It boots faster". Okay, get a tablet. They boot even faster. "Its more secure". Ok, get a tablet. Its more secure than Windows 7. There is virtually no compelling reason for Windows 7 users to upgrade to Windows 8. Yet there are many reasons to avoid this catastrophe. The stripping away of choice, freedom, flexibility, and power are many of the reasons I will not even look at Windows 8 lest I begin puking.

This comment was edited on Nov 18, 2012, 11:15.
 
Just because you aren't afraid of something doesn't it mean it can't kill you...
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136. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 10:52 Zetler
 
Right, we should fight Windows 8 because Steam is not a walled garden at all and represent freedom am I right folks? LOL. There's much irony in this.  
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135. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 10:51 Fibrocyte
 
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 10:18:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:28:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:23:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.

Someone asking if that was serious or not, obviously is one of the guys he mentioned... lol

LOL! Oh Beaver... you're the wittiest!

How do they say it?...

Butthurt a lot, are you not?

How DO they say it, ASeven?? Do tell...
 
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134. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 18, 2012, 10:18 ASeven
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:28:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:23:
Fibrocyte wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 09:15:
ASeven wrote on Nov 18, 2012, 07:53:
I suppose there were apologists, fanbois and shills who defended WinME so seeing them do the same on Win8 is hardly surprising.

1/10 ... your mention of WinME gains you that one point.

Oh, and if you were being serious then you're incredibly obtuse.

Someone asking if that was serious or not, obviously is one of the guys he mentioned... lol

LOL! Oh Beaver... you're the wittiest!

How do they say it?...

Butthurt a lot, are you not?
 
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