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Croteam on Windows 8 Issues

A post on the Steam Users' Forums from a couple of weeks ago offers a distressing overview of Windows 8 from Croteam (thanks Gamer's Hell), as Alen Ladavac says: "I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are 'under the hood' motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers." Saying "Gabe Newel did not overreact," he goes on to describe how "under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS." Here's more:

There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

* (Our footnote, not Alen's): He seems to have missed this story).

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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 6.
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53. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 20:33 Verno
 
DDI wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:02:
So much crazy in here. Windows Desktop environment will not go away for a long time. Even Windows RT still has the desktop environment.

Has anyone said its going away tomorrow? Seems to me that people are more concerned with Microsoft hastening the process and compromising parts of the platform along the way. What is the excuse for not allowing developers and users their own method to install and run a metro application? That's all people are asking for here, it's not unreasonable.

The new Start Menu is far faster to navigate than the old one, even with a mouse. There is a shit ton of data to back it up.

Microsoft run studies I'm sure. I haven't even heard the most ardent defenders of Metro make that claim. Metro isn't as bad as people make out but its pretty annoying to deal with as a desktop user. I tried to make it useful in a multimonitor situation but the inability to pin it to one screen without application launching making it jump back and forth was the final straw.
 
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52. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 20:30 Dev
 
DDI wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:02:
DADES loves to spread the FUD. You can run the same exact certification tests before you submit the app so you aren't wasting time waiting for feedback. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694081.aspx
And so do you. They are supposed to be the same but aren't. Obviously you aren't reading much about actual dev experience with that.
For instance, this (and it was linked on blues when it was posted)
link
It passed those supposedly exact "same" tests on his dev box, and failed when submitted to MS.
Obviously that means they are NOT the same.


This comment was edited on Nov 17, 2012, 20:38.
 
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51. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 20:24 Dades
 
DDI wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:02:
So much crazy in here. Windows Desktop environment will not go away for a long time. Even Windows RT still has the desktop environment. The new Start Menu is far faster to navigate than the old one, even with a mouse. There is a shit ton of data to back it up.

The new start menu has been almost universally panned by desktop users because of its design deficiencies when operated by a keyboard and mouse. People have resorted to shortcuts to work around the tablet concessions or disabled it entirely.

DADES loves to spread the FUD. You can run the same exact certification tests before you submit the app so you aren't wasting time waiting for feedback. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694081.aspx The price for an individual to publish apps to the store (which you do not need to install your own apps) is $50 a year. Big fucking deal. If can't swing the $50 then make it a desktop app and get a real fucking job that gives lets you earn more than $50 a year. Apple is $100 year. Microsoft's 30% cut goes down to 20% once your app hits 25k of revenue, unlike Google or Apple where its 30% indefinitely.

My company is working on Windows 8 apps so I have no idea why you think I care about spreading FUD. I said the trace feedbacks (memory dumps) from users, not talking about initial submission. It is not free to develop an application, no one said it cost a fortune but its more than the existing standard of zero. That revenue portion is only until the end of 2013.

I don't run Windows 8 and don't know if I will but I still think a lot of the hype from the likes of Croteam and Valve is based on pure speculation and not evidence.

There's nothing speculative about it, they're commenting about the existing restrictions. It's all laid out in the store and certification guidelines. Their main concern is that if you don't want to use the store or microsoft refuses to accept your app for some reason, there is no other way to deliver a "Metro" app to users without running an enterprise version of Windows 8.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
 
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50. Re: Wow... Nov 17, 2012, 20:08 Parallax Abstraction
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:19:
Doombringer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:10:
I'm seeing a lot of "gasp!" and "the sky is falling!" regarding Windows 8's "Metro" or RT apps...

I suppose it wouldn't be so shocking if Microsoft said "hey, it's like iOS. Get it?"

Because that's what it is. It's a walled garden. You can't install whatever you'd like on an iOS device, and yet, somehow Apple can't sell enough of them. People are eating them up. Did you think Microsoft *wasn't* going to want a piece of this?

IOS is not OSX.

Apple is not trying to put IOS on Macintosh Desktop computers.

What part of this are you not getting?

Sure, they have added some OPTIONAL IOS-like features to OSX (Mac app store, App launcher that looks like IOS launcher, and access to iCloud) But NONE of that is forced on you, like Metro is with Windows 8. OSX remains to be it's own Desktop OS.

Anyone who thinks this exact kind of thing isn't coming to OS X is kidding themselves. Microsoft may have done it first but make no mistake, Apple wants in on this too. They can wait longer because they have a monopoly on the hardware market for their platform and have managed to convince people to overpay for hardware because tons of people just own Macs because they're fashionable but they want their cut of app sales on every platform just like Microsoft does.

I don't run Windows 8 and don't know if I will but I still think a lot of the hype from the likes of Croteam and Valve is based on pure speculation and not evidence. Anybody remember that article from the New Zealand security researcher that screamed how Windows Vista was full of DRM and was basically going to be an OS that Hollywood would be able to cripple at will and which would severely limit what you could do with it to support DRM? Yeah, remember how that also turned out to be complete bullshit and the guy was shoved into obscurity as a result? Panic without evidence is often unfounded.

Not saying I like Microsoft's direction (which is squarely following something Apple started and has been practically considered heroic for) but I wager if Windows 8 isn't selling (I've seen lots of people saying this without one person linking to an article with actual cited sales data), they will re-evaluate their strategy. I hated Vista too death and so did everyone else but it was the fastest selling version of Windows for its game, though granted, that was before tablets and the Apple fashion trend. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Microsoft or Windows 8, though it probably sounds it. I'm just saying it might be worth laying off the panic until there's something worth panicing about, beyond what a guy like Newell says, who has a vested interest in making sure he controls the PC software market instead of Microsoft. If this gets worse in Windows 9, I'll happily switch to Linux, assuming it isn't still the massive nightmare that it is now.
 
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49. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 20:02 DDI
 
So much crazy in here. Windows Desktop environment will not go away for a long time. Even Windows RT still has the desktop environment. The new Start Menu is far faster to navigate than the old one, even with a mouse. There is a shit ton of data to back it up.

DADES loves to spread the FUD. You can run the same exact certification tests before you submit the app so you aren't wasting time waiting for feedback. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694081.aspx

The price for an individual to publish apps to the store (which you do not need to install your own apps) is $50 a year. Big fucking deal. If can't swing the $50 then make it a desktop app and get a real fucking job that gives lets you earn more than $50 a year. Apple is $100 year. Microsoft's 30% cut goes down to 20% once your app hits 25k of revenue, unlike Google or Apple where its 30% indefinitely.
 
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48. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:57 Grumble
 
deqer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:52:
Looks like this could be the final push for people to start Linux.

I think getting "pushed" to Linux implies sun-setting Windows 7 (MS stops support and development on that platform declines significantly) and having everything Windows 8 and later go the way of the walled garden. That's years away. Even then, if Valve provides an "easier" solution (e.g. a console box) I think people would opt for that over tinkering with Linux. The console would sit on a desk and people would invest in a decent KVM switch.

 
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47. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:44 Dades
 
DangerDog wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:29:
They're referring to "metro" apps which can only be acquired from the microsoft app store, WinRT is the lame version of Windows 8 that only runs on an ARM processor.


No, that's Windows RT, the stupid ARM only operating system. WinRT is the development platform for all Metro apps, x86, x64 and ARM. Yes it's confusing as hell because microsoft is stupid.

What, did you think MS was going to offer the app store and certification free

Certification is free but costly and time inefficient for the developer. You need to buy a license to even submit content to the store. The user and log tracking is pitiful too. Stack traces are taking 7 days to be received for my companys app submission, it's ridiculous. They take a hefty cut of each sale just like the apple store and just like the apple store you can't load your own apps.

People give Android shit but they're the only ones who don't have their heads up their asses about a truly open platform. If you don't like the play store you can load your own apps manually or even use a custom store.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

This comment was edited on Nov 17, 2012, 19:55.
 
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46. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 17, 2012, 19:37 Dev
 
HorrorScope wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:29:
Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:36:
The big deal is that microsoft is forcing themselves into a 30% cut from game developers revenues.

I didn't know that. Is that from the link, if not do you have one?

Yes I can see any long time windows developer diving off steep places over this. That is an extremely huge game changer. As said, I'll go elsewhere and there will be a new rise in OS from somewhere (google) eventually, if they try it.
What, did you think MS was going to offer the app store and certification free? LOL.
Its not specifically game devs, its ANY store app.
link
There's piles of other links to verify if you want to google it. Its also the same cut that apple takes from what I recall.

That 30% cut would be the ENTIRE reason they are doing this.
 
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45. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:29 DangerDog
 
DG wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:05:
Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:36:
DrSquick wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:31:
I don't get what all the hoopla is about, I only look at the start menu for a couple seconds; I dragged all my important apps to the left side, so I hit the windows key, and click the app I want, then the metro interface goes away. I'm guessing this is about people who want to make fullscreen metro games?

WinRT developed apps are what he was referring to. [...]
what is the importance of these WinRT apps?

They're referring to "metro" apps which can only be acquired from the microsoft app store, WinRT is the lame version of Windows 8 that only runs on an ARM processor.

Metro was just the internal name for the tablet stylized UI used by microsoft, but the word Metro apparently is tied down to another company in terms of trademarks. Then they wanted everyone to call them Windows Store apps, I think the latest is "Modern UI" apps.



 
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44. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 17, 2012, 19:29 HorrorScope
 
Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:36:
The big deal is that microsoft is forcing themselves into a 30% cut from game developers revenues.

I didn't know that. Is that from the link, if not do you have one?

Yes I can see any long time windows developer diving off steep places over this. That is an extremely huge game changer. As said, I'll go elsewhere and there will be a new rise in OS from somewhere (google) eventually, if they try it.
 
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43. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:26 hoolaparara
 
I've not seen anybody else suggest it, but I reckon even before Windows 8 was released there was a marketing report in a desk somewhere with a couple of empty boxes to plug in numbers from windows 8.

What does it say?

Well it says that the data compiled show that home users almost never installed an application from disc, entirely using the windows store to buy their software. So in future in order to provide our users with what they want and to improve security with Windows 9(tm) Home and Home Premium editions will only run software from the Windows Store. Users wishing to install specialist niche software from disc are recommended to buy the Windows Professional version of the software.

In unrelated news, the price of Windows Professional has risen by 100% for single licenses.

 
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42. Re: Wow... Nov 17, 2012, 19:19 wtf_man
 
Doombringer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:10:
I'm seeing a lot of "gasp!" and "the sky is falling!" regarding Windows 8's "Metro" or RT apps...

I suppose it wouldn't be so shocking if Microsoft said "hey, it's like iOS. Get it?"

Because that's what it is. It's a walled garden. You can't install whatever you'd like on an iOS device, and yet, somehow Apple can't sell enough of them. People are eating them up. Did you think Microsoft *wasn't* going to want a piece of this?

IOS is not OSX.

Apple is not trying to put IOS on Macintosh Desktop computers.

What part of this are you not getting?

Sure, they have added some OPTIONAL IOS-like features to OSX (Mac app store, App launcher that looks like IOS launcher, and access to iCloud) But NONE of that is forced on you, like Metro is with Windows 8. OSX remains to be it's own Desktop OS.
 
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41. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 17, 2012, 19:17 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Dev wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:32:
No, it will not be viewed as a failure,
You misunderstand what I describe as a failure, and that will be their app store. The OS itself won't be, the store itself will be. I'll hazard a guess because apple is entrenched, but android is heavily eroding it with the whole "open concept" stuff.
 
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40. Wow... Nov 17, 2012, 19:10 Doombringer
 
I'm seeing a lot of "gasp!" and "the sky is falling!" regarding Windows 8's "Metro" or RT apps...

I suppose it wouldn't be so shocking if Microsoft said "hey, it's like iOS. Get it?"

Because that's what it is. It's a walled garden. You can't install whatever you'd like on an iOS device, and yet, somehow Apple can't sell enough of them. People are eating them up. Did you think Microsoft *wasn't* going to want a piece of this?
 
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39. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:10 wtf_man
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:03:
If the fears end up being well-founded then 7 is my last OS for gaming and I keep my machine for legacy purposes. If the fears are as paranoid as I hope they are then I will upgrade when 9 comes out, skipping over 8 like most people skipped Vista.

I pretty much said this the other day in another thread on Blues.

However, Since MS badly wants an App Store and has badly wanted to rent software to you for ages (Software as a Service)... between "The Cloud" and "App Stores", that is exactly the way computing is heading towards, and I highly Doubt Windows 9 will steer away from that direction.
 
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38. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:06 Silicon Avatar
 
So the solution is for Croteam not to make their next game a tiled app and sell it on Steam instead of through the MS Store. You know, like since time began. It works fine.
 
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37. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 19:04 gilly775
 
deqer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:52:
Looks like this could be the final push for people to start Linux.

If all game developers got that way, then that's fine by me. However, I really don't see that happening right away.
 
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36. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 18:52 deqer
 
Looks like this could be the final push for people to start Linux.  
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35. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 17, 2012, 18:32 Dev
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:38:
Though MS is going to realize that this is a failure
ASeven wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 15:31:
Thank goodness all indications seem to show that Win8 is currently a sales disaster. The biggest share of clients of a new Windows, companies and corporations, don't want to touch it like PC gamers don't. There's simply no reason whatsoever to upgrade from Win7 or even WinXP, despite what MS fanbois might say.

HorrorScope wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:26:
We'll see, it's not like I'm buying Win 8 to support it anywho. So I've done my part I reckon, will that be enough?
No, it will not be viewed as a failure, regardless of how many desktop users do or do not buy a retail copy, thats actually one of the smallest sales segments for windows (plus, I remember the biggest reason many people cited about upgrading to vista, it was because they were "tired" of the GUI and just wanted a new one, those people will still be buying win 8). I've gone over the many reasons before why overall sales of win 8 will still be good. You say you won't support it, but even that is likely wrong. Next time you buy a new computer, you will be paying a MS tax for win 8. Thats one way they will still get sales. Another way is that businesses buying a "windows" license will still be counted as a windows 8 sale (even if those businesses use windows xp or win 7).

In the short term, we will continue to see reports of windows sales may be lower than MS would have hoped, because at this point they are only counting retail launch sales. In the long term, once all new computers use it, and businesses continue to buy "windows" licenses, it will even out.

So, while the ADOPTION rate may be lower than usual, the overall SALES rate will be similar or better than win 7 because of the way MS counts.

This comment was edited on Nov 17, 2012, 18:41.
 
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34. Re: Croteam on Windows 8 Issues Nov 17, 2012, 18:25 SectorEffector
 
Windows 8 is palpable with Classic Shell and ALL that hotcorner bullshit disabled.

Aside from some minor issues, I get all the benefits and it still feels like windows 7.

PS: Fuck Metro. IOS or Android Store having limits is fine, these are mobile platforms mainly developed towards smartphones, there should be some level of barriers.

A Desktop OS shouldn't ever have that shit.
 
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153 Replies. 8 pages. Viewing page 6.
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