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Out of the Blue

Well today is Election Day here in the U.S., our annual opportunity to practice democracy (insert joke here about continuing to practice until we get it right). Here's hoping all those who are registered get out and vote, and that the process proceeds smoothly.

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236 Replies. 12 pages. Viewing page 8.
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96. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 01:04 Cutter
 
nin wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:10:
Reacting to a close vote in Colorado on legalizing and regulating the recreational use of marijuana, the state's governor John Hickenlooper released a statement:

"The voters have spoken and we have to respect their will. This will be a complicated process, but we intend to follow through. That said, federal law still says marijuana is an illegal drug so don't break out the Cheetos or gold fish too quickly."

I'm laughing out loud...


Oddly enough they fell just shy of it in Oregon. And who cares if its illegal at the federal level. What about state rights? Hah! That's a major conundrum for the anti-pot conservartives who always crow on about state rights. Lol!
 
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95. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:50 Cutter
 
Regardless of any of it, the question remains not only how America but most countries will go on with this sort of divide we're seeing. It's not just the US but a lot of other countries where we're seeing this split roughly down the middle and the lack of bi-partisanship thats not only polarizing but prevents anything from getting done. Would you want to live in a relationship like that with someone or would you just call it a day and go your own way? I've been talking secession and the return to the city-state model since Reagan so this is nothing new for me, and it does seem that every year it seems to get worse so the question is can we all bridge the divide and compromise or are we just all wasting our time?

P.S. Oh yeah and who called Obama with at least 290?
 
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"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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94. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:46 Cutter
 
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:30:
Taxes are the lowest they've been across the board for the middle class in a long time. How hard is it to fathom that the 1% can't cover everything, they're already taxed more than anyone else and those people at the bottom that rake in all the handouts pay zero.

But they can. They don't pay their share, not even close. That's why the tax laws are so convoluted and there are so many tax lawyers. When guys like Buffet say they're not paying enough - Buffet paid 17% last year while his secretary paid 35%. How else do you think that less than 1% of the population control over 90% of the wealth? So how you can argue they're not paying enough is absurd at best.

The issue is most definitely spending, you can't spend more than you take in and expect to prosper.

No one disagrees with that it's just a question of where those cuts come from. Maybe you want to live in some version of a post-apocalypse America where everyone fends for themselves but most people - even on the right - do not.

Once again it's the same ol song and dance, tax the rich, they'll pay for it all. Class warfare rah rah rah.

And guys like you defending them even as they make your life harder. Why is that?

I can't fucking believe Americans want another 4 years of record debt and unemployment. Though when you look at the popular vote, Mittens clearly won. Might be time to revisit that whole electoral college bullshit and why an entire state that's pretty much all red, can flip to blue based on a single county and vise versa.

I can't believe people voted for the GOP after the last 4 years of obstructionist politics where they won't budge an inch on anything they don't want. That's why nothing is getting done. And yeah, if there was no electoral college there never would have been a Dubya and America wouldn't be in the mess its in right now so I agree with you on that.

Edit: Well, looks like Obama wins the popular vote too. Oh that's gotta sting, huh?

This comment was edited on Nov 7, 2012, 01:20.
 
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93. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:38 Cutter
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:29:
No, I'm saying that tax rates for the top earners, we're talking like top 0.1%, need to go up drastically. It isn't about how much someone earns, it's about how much they earn proportionately. Cutting taxes on the middle class won't do much if they're still only seeing a small chunk of the overall income in America. Too much of that income is going to too few people, because those few people make decisions that reward their income, not middle class income. Eliminate 1000 jobs, get a million dollar bonus. That's how we've incentivized "job creators." By allowing unlimited earning we've told them to find ways to earn unlimited income, and the only way to do that is to increase their share more. That money has to come from somewhere, so it comes from the middle class.

Agreed. Take America cicra 1950s when trade unions were strong an the rich and big biz paid the lion share of tax. That was America at the height of its power. Why? Because trickle-up economics works and trickle-down doesn't. It's been proven time and time again around the globe.

I disagree with you about corporate taxes. Corporations can, and will, send jobs overseas to avoid tax rates. So why should we tax them? We have two areas to tax: corporate and personal. When we tax corporate we give incentive to move operations out. If we tax personal, we're no longer doing that. No executive will say "man, taxes are too high here, I'm moving my family to Thailand," but they do say "man, corporate taxes are too high here, I'm moving your job to Thailand."

Not if you tie tax cuts and/or subsidies to domestic job creation. That aside, with peak oil on the way that's going to restructure everything and bring back domestic jobs regardless. Question is if they will be decent paying jobs you can raise a family on and retire on. Not without the political will of the people. Otherwise the 1% will still keep hoovering up everything.

Think about the motives behind these moves, and how taxes influence it. Low personal taxes and high corporate taxes encourage business going overseas. High personal taxes and low corporate taxes encourage business staying here.

And when no one has work at home anymore how does anyone buy anything? That's why that arguement is nonsense because it only comes back to bite those corporations in the ass. People need disposable income or it all grinds to a halt.
 
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92. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:30 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:02:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 17:48:
Bodolza wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:31:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:25:
Don't just raise taxes while still spending out of control like both parties are currently doing.

Wow. After your previous rants, I'm a bit surprised that you support Obama's position on spending.

LOL Obama's position on spending is raise taxes while continuing to spend. So no, I don't support the Obmessiah's position.

Spending isn't the issue people make it out to be. They love to, because China, but China barely has any of our debt.

Taxation is a problem. We need to go back to the same marginal tax rates as when we had a strong middle class. People act like it's a recent thing that the middle class is in decline, as if it can happen in 4 years instead of 30.

Pretty much there's a nice divide between people that still believe America is the end all and be all in the world, and that it can just print personal income, and people that realize that America is competing on a global economy and that personal income is disappearing to other nations yet somehow growing at the very top. That growth is coming from somewhere. If it isn't other nations it must be... the middle class!

Taxes are the lowest they've been across the board for the middle class in a long time. How hard is it to fathom that the 1% can't cover everything, they're already taxed more than anyone else and those people at the bottom that rake in all the handouts pay zero.

The issue is most definitely spending, you can't spend more than you take in and expect to prosper. Common sense beamer come on.

Once again it's the same ol song and dance, tax the rich, they'll pay for it all. Class warfare rah rah rah.

I can't fucking believe Americans want another 4 years of record debt and unemployment. Though when you look at the popular vote, Mittens clearly won. Might be time to revisit that whole electoral college bullshit and why an entire state that's pretty much all red, can flip to blue based on a single county and vise versa.
 
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91. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:29 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:20:
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:02:
Taxation is a problem. We need to go back to the same marginal tax rates as when we had a strong middle class. People act like it's a recent thing that the middle class is in decline, as if it can happen in 4 years instead of 30.

So you're saying tax rates for the middle class need to be... cut, I guess? I'm not being snide, I'm really not quite figuring out what your gist is.

The middle class really doesn't pay that much taxes. I think my wife and I qualify to be considered middle class, and I pay like 9.5% federal and even less than that in state income tax. Admittedly I'm paying a shitload of money on mortgage interest, so that helps, but even so, I don't really think that lowering the tax rate even further is going to magically pump trillions of dollars into the economy.

What REALLY needs to happen is that all these fucking insane tax cuts for all the corporations need to vanish. Hey, let's give corporation X 180 million dollars in tax cuts so it can go and outsource 40% of its workforce, and then fire another 20% of its workforce here in the US when it makes a loss in one quarter...

(of course, the corporations would just charge their customers to make up for it, so I guess in the end the US citizens will still have to cough all this shit up.)

Also, Donald Trump has now completely lost his mind.

Creston

No, I'm saying that tax rates for the top earners, we're talking like top 0.1%, need to go up drastically. It isn't about how much someone earns, it's about how much they earn proportionately. Cutting taxes on the middle class won't do much if they're still only seeing a small chunk of the overall income in America. Too much of that income is going to too few people, because those few people make decisions that reward their income, not middle class income. Eliminate 1000 jobs, get a million dollar bonus. That's how we've incentivized "job creators." By allowing unlimited earning we've told them to find ways to earn unlimited income, and the only way to do that is to increase their share more. That money has to come from somewhere, so it comes from the middle class.

I disagree with you about corporate taxes. Corporations can, and will, send jobs overseas to avoid tax rates. So why should we tax them? We have two areas to tax: corporate and personal. When we tax corporate we give incentive to move operations out. If we tax personal, we're no longer doing that. No executive will say "man, taxes are too high here, I'm moving my family to Thailand," but they do say "man, corporate taxes are too high here, I'm moving your job to Thailand."

Think about the motives behind these moves, and how taxes influence it. Low personal taxes and high corporate taxes encourage business going overseas. High personal taxes and low corporate taxes encourage business staying here.
 
-------------
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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90. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:20 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:02:
Taxation is a problem. We need to go back to the same marginal tax rates as when we had a strong middle class. People act like it's a recent thing that the middle class is in decline, as if it can happen in 4 years instead of 30.

So you're saying tax rates for the middle class need to be... cut, I guess? I'm not being snide, I'm really not quite figuring out what your gist is.

The middle class really doesn't pay that much taxes. I think my wife and I qualify to be considered middle class, and I pay like 9.5% federal and even less than that in state income tax. Admittedly I'm paying a shitload of money on mortgage interest, so that helps, but even so, I don't really think that lowering the tax rate even further is going to magically pump trillions of dollars into the economy.

What REALLY needs to happen is that all these fucking insane tax cuts for all the corporations need to vanish. Hey, let's give corporation X 180 million dollars in tax cuts so it can go and outsource 40% of its workforce, and then fire another 20% of its workforce here in the US when it makes a loss in one quarter...

(of course, the corporations would just charge their customers to make up for it, so I guess in the end the US citizens will still have to cough all this shit up.)

Also, Donald Trump has now completely lost his mind.

Creston
 
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89. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:10 nin
 
Reacting to a close vote in Colorado on legalizing and regulating the recreational use of marijuana, the state's governor John Hickenlooper released a statement:

"The voters have spoken and we have to respect their will. This will be a complicated process, but we intend to follow through. That said, federal law still says marijuana is an illegal drug so don't break out the Cheetos or gold fish too quickly."

I'm laughing out loud...

 
http://www.nin.com/pub/tension/
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88. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 00:02 Beamer
 
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 17:48:
Bodolza wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:31:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:25:
Don't just raise taxes while still spending out of control like both parties are currently doing.

Wow. After your previous rants, I'm a bit surprised that you support Obama's position on spending.

LOL Obama's position on spending is raise taxes while continuing to spend. So no, I don't support the Obmessiah's position.

Spending isn't the issue people make it out to be. They love to, because China, but China barely has any of our debt.

Taxation is a problem. We need to go back to the same marginal tax rates as when we had a strong middle class. People act like it's a recent thing that the middle class is in decline, as if it can happen in 4 years instead of 30.

Pretty much there's a nice divide between people that still believe America is the end all and be all in the world, and that it can just print personal income, and people that realize that America is competing on a global economy and that personal income is disappearing to other nations yet somehow growing at the very top. That growth is coming from somewhere. If it isn't other nations it must be... the middle class!
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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87. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 23:31 Wowbagger_TIP
 
nin wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 23:27:
Wow, electoral-vote melted tonight.

9:20 P.M. EST

Servers are hopeless.


Yeah, that's my bad, I was mashing F5 all night
 
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86. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 23:27 nin
 

Wow, electoral-vote melted tonight.

9:20 P.M. EST

Servers are hopeless.

 
http://www.nin.com/pub/tension/
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85. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 19:49 xXBatmanXx
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 19:44:
God I hate all these pundits on the various news programs. They're even more irritating than the politicians themselves. I can't believe people pay them for that nonsense. All they do is sit around contradicting each other by trotting out some small - and completely irrelevant - "gem" that the next guy shoots down and then brings out his "sage wisdom".

I find it funny that they report on tiny shit towns in middle of nowhere like it means something.....the votes in major metro areas count - unfortunately, the small towns don't.

998 vs 1200 in podunk nowhere Kentucky - guess you can only talk about so much until majority of polls close.
 
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84. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 19:44 Cutter
 
God I hate all these pundits on the various news programs. They're even more irritating than the politicians themselves. I can't believe people pay them for that nonsense. All they do is sit around contradicting each other by trotting out some small - and completely irrelevant - "gem" that the next guy shoots down and then brings out his "sage wisdom".
 
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83. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 19:20 Wowbagger_TIP
 
Creston wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 18:59:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 18:07:
ugh, live in a terrible place for the voting spot. Wife voted this AM said it was 2 hours to get through the line. I just went to vote and the line was 3-4 people across and 2 blocks long......guess i will try right before they close....the place is TINY!

Dude... I had one person in line in front of me, and that was only because he was a little old (like 90+) man that I allowed to go first.

There are some advantages to living in the boonies.

Creston

I live a mile outside of downtown Dallas, and I had nobody in front of me Of course my vote doesn't make a difference at all here, but I gotta do it anyway. I'm probably more concerned about the state board of education than the presidential race. We get some serious morons on the SBOE here.
 
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82. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 18:59 Creston
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 18:07:
ugh, live in a terrible place for the voting spot. Wife voted this AM said it was 2 hours to get through the line. I just went to vote and the line was 3-4 people across and 2 blocks long......guess i will try right before they close....the place is TINY!

Dude... I had one person in line in front of me, and that was only because he was a little old (like 90+) man that I allowed to go first.

There are some advantages to living in the boonies.

Creston
 
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81. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 18:43 Wowbagger_TIP
 
PHJF wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 18:20:
Does anyone else find it funny how heavily Obama was criticized in '08 for being "an elitest" that the average joe "couldn't drink a beer with", and now the RNC comes back with a pompous millionaire whose religion forbids him from the consumption of alcohol?

Anyone?

Republicans are immune to irony and hypocrisy. They also used to hate flip-floppers, if you can believe that.
 
Avatar 9540
 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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80. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 18:42 Wowbagger_TIP
 
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 17:48:
Bodolza wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:31:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:25:
Don't just raise taxes while still spending out of control like both parties are currently doing.

Wow. After your previous rants, I'm a bit surprised that you support Obama's position on spending.

LOL Obama's position on spending is raise taxes while continuing to spend. So no, I don't support the Obmessiah's position.

Well, yes, the government will continue to spend money, so in that sense you're correct. But in the sense that he will increase government spending, the current record shows that you are likely incorrect, as the trend is downward, and given that he's already proposed far more cuts than revenue increases, I think you're completely misrepresenting his position.

Of course you say he's unwilling to compromise, which is rather hilarious given that the Republicans are the ones that have openly and repeatedly stated that they are unwilling to compromise. Of course you don't seem to have much interest in actual facts. You never seem to provide any to support your accusations, anyway.
 
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79. Re: More Big Picture Details Nov 6, 2012, 18:26 HorrorScope
 
I hate gridlock, I'm all in favor of either side getting control of all 3 houses. That way shit can get done. IMO you cannot fairly judge a congress/president when it's mixed, gridlock ensues. We all lose.  
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78. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 18:20 PHJF
 
Does anyone else find it funny how heavily Obama was criticized in '08 for being "an elitest" that the average joe "couldn't drink a beer with", and now the RNC comes back with a pompous millionaire whose religion forbids him from the consumption of alcohol?

Anyone?
 
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77. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 6, 2012, 18:09 Cutter
 
It's too bad people like Thunder aren't just trolls. They're all very scarily real. The cognitive disconnect of those people boggles the mind. You can lead a con to facts, but you can't make him think.

Obama will take it with 290 electoral votes or better. Any shortcomigns of his in the last 4 years are solely the exclusive domain of the other side of the aisle. Why would you want to reward people who are nothing but obstructionists and unwilling to compromise in any way, shape, or form?

 
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