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Out of the Blue

Well today is Election Day here in the U.S., our annual opportunity to practice democracy (insert joke here about continuing to practice until we get it right). Here's hoping all those who are registered get out and vote, and that the process proceeds smoothly.

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236 Replies. 12 pages. Viewing page 6.
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136. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 10:30 Prez
 
PHJF wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 10:13:
US Federal Spending 2010

"around 70%"??? And note this does NOT include funding for stuff like Homeland Security or the VA.

Medicare and SS serve a practical purpose, for all their flaws. I'm at far greater risk of dying of cancer than of a bullet from a Chinaman (as are you).

I agree that the defense budget would be less painful to cut - the point I was inelegantly trying to make is that the defense budget isn't the key to fixing America's financial woes. We probably don't need to be spending near as much as we are in defense, true, but what worries me is how far people seem willing to slash it without considering the potential risks involved. The pie chart on the link you posted (which has different breakdowns from the one I read from this year, but because it was in a magazine let's go with yours) shows that defense is still smaller than both the Medicare/ Medicaid budget and Social Security, if only slightly.

Social Security is a huge drain on our budget that at least bears looking at. There are options that can be explored that could save a whole lot of money while still allowing us to keep our promises to our 'seasoned citizens' that were made long ago. But touching Social Security in DC is tantamount to political suicide - it is practically sacrosanct so no one is even willing to approach the subject because it would be career death. The main point is that with the country's finances in such a state of disarray I believe EVERYTHING needs to be on the table (including higher taxes) - With the understanding that we aren't just going to turn our backs on our elderly and sick, of course. But let's look where we can save some or make sure what we spend is spent more efficiently everywhere.

This comment was edited on Nov 7, 2012, 10:38.
 
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135. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 10:16 Bhruic
 
Prez wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 09:21:
Yeah I agree with that. What bothered me most about his first term is what he *didn't* get passed - no federal budget in 4 years ( 2 of them while Democrats contolled the Congress and virtually any budget he wanted would have passed with ease)

Funny how much of the thread was dedicated to yelling at Rollin because of his (incorrect) "Democrats controlled Congress for 2 years" comment, but despite that, here comes Prez, back to claiming that Democrats controlled congress for 2 years...
 
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134. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 10:13 PHJF
 
US Federal Spending 2010

"around 70%"??? And note this does NOT include funding for stuff like Homeland Security or the VA.

Medicare and SS serve a practical purpose, for all their flaws. I'm at far greater risk of dying of cancer than of a bullet from a Chinaman (as are you).
 
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133. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 10:08 RollinThundr
 
Prez wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 09:21:
Verno wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 09:08:

I think Obama got plenty done, I just don't agree with all of it. That said, it's time to look forward and make due with what we have. He might be a Democrat but he's our President for the next 4 years. There is no reason that the country can't work together with reasoned debate instead of rhetoric and blame games. It starts with people like us too.

Yeah I agree with that. What bothered me most about his first term is what he *didn't* get passed - no federal budget in 4 years ( 2 of them while Democrats contolled the Congress and virtually any budget he wanted would have passed with ease) is just inexcusably irresponsible, which is the main reason I voted for Romney. Alas, Romney didn't win, so it's time to move on. Let's just hope that Obama shows a considerably larger amount of fiscal discretion this time around. With the deficit as out of control as it is some serious restraint in spending is a must in this term.

Well you know it's Bush's fault he didn't pass a federal budget. And it's Reagan's fault both his budget proposals got voted down heavily by BOTH parties for sucking so hard. After all the Obmessiah is infallible.
 
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132. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 09:43 Prez
 
PHJF wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 09:29:
Let's just hope that Obama shows a considerably larger amount of fiscal discretion this time around. With the deficit as out of control as it is some serious restraint in spending is a must in this term.

It's all a drop in the bucket until by some miracle somebody crusades successfully against the defense budget (which I don't think will ever happen).

Obama could have done that easily in the first 2 years of his term. He chose not to. And Social Security and Medicare are what make the largest portion of the budget, not the defense budgett. Around 70% of it last I heard.
 
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131. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 09:37 InBlack
 
Thats because you are all being hoodwinked. The only difference between Democrats and Republicans is that at least the Democrats give the appearance of giving a shit (and hence there is a little bit of inclusivity in your society) and the Republicans have a loyal base who will doublethink their way into thinking that Republicans give a shit. (Lowering the budget & Increasing military spending = DOUBLETHINK! just to name one example)

Democracy is only as strong as those elected believe it to be. When you have 544 elected officials in Washington being lobbied and pulled at the sleeve by corporate hounds at every fucking corner nothing good can come of any of it.
 
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130. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 09:29 PHJF
 
Let's just hope that Obama shows a considerably larger amount of fiscal discretion this time around. With the deficit as out of control as it is some serious restraint in spending is a must in this term.

It's all a drop in the bucket until by some miracle somebody crusades successfully against the defense budget (which I don't think will ever happen).
 
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129. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 09:21 Prez
 
Verno wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 09:08:

I think Obama got plenty done, I just don't agree with all of it. That said, it's time to look forward and make due with what we have. He might be a Democrat but he's our President for the next 4 years. There is no reason that the country can't work together with reasoned debate instead of rhetoric and blame games. It starts with people like us too.

Yeah I agree with that. What bothered me most about his first term is what he *didn't* get passed - no federal budget in 4 years ( 2 of them while Democrats contolled the Congress and virtually any budget he wanted would have passed with ease) is just inexcusably irresponsible, which is the main reason I voted for Romney. Alas, Romney didn't win, so it's time to move on. Let's just hope that Obama shows a considerably larger amount of fiscal discretion this time around. With the deficit as out of control as it is some serious restraint in spending is a must in this term.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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128. Weed legalized in Colorado, Washington Nov 7, 2012, 09:12 PHJF
 
haha:

"The voters have spoken and we have to respect their will," said Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper, in a statement. "This is a complicated process, but we intend to follow through. That said, federal law still says marijuana is an illegal drug, so don't break out the Cheetos or goldfish too quickly."
 
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127. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 09:08 Verno
 
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 08:13:
oh for fucks sakes. Obama didn't get anything done let's blame the GOP for blocking him! Or lets blame Bush! Or Reagan! So this is what conservatives have to look forward to for another 4 years? Blame everyone else but Obama for being a failure of a president? Yippy can't wait!

I think Obama got plenty done, I just don't agree with all of it. That said, it's time to look forward and make due with what we have. He might be a Democrat but he's our President for the next 4 years. There is no reason that the country can't work together with reasoned debate instead of rhetoric and blame games. It starts with people like us too.

Porn condom thing

The San Fernando valley will be deserted in no time
 
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126. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 09:05 BobBob
 
Glad to see California Proposition 39 passed! Yay!

We also voted to keep the death penalty. Take that freaks ...
 
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125. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:57 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 08:14:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:30:
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:02:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 17:48:
Bodolza wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:31:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:25:
Don't just raise taxes while still spending out of control like both parties are currently doing.

Wow. After your previous rants, I'm a bit surprised that you support Obama's position on spending.

LOL Obama's position on spending is raise taxes while continuing to spend. So no, I don't support the Obmessiah's position.

Spending isn't the issue people make it out to be. They love to, because China, but China barely has any of our debt.

Taxation is a problem. We need to go back to the same marginal tax rates as when we had a strong middle class. People act like it's a recent thing that the middle class is in decline, as if it can happen in 4 years instead of 30.

Pretty much there's a nice divide between people that still believe America is the end all and be all in the world, and that it can just print personal income, and people that realize that America is competing on a global economy and that personal income is disappearing to other nations yet somehow growing at the very top. That growth is coming from somewhere. If it isn't other nations it must be... the middle class!

Taxes are the lowest they've been across the board for the middle class in a long time. How hard is it to fathom that the 1% can't cover everything, they're already taxed more than anyone else and those people at the bottom that rake in all the handouts pay zero.

The issue is most definitely spending, you can't spend more than you take in and expect to prosper. Common sense beamer come on.

Once again it's the same ol song and dance, tax the rich, they'll pay for it all. Class warfare rah rah rah.

I can't fucking believe Americans want another 4 years of record debt and unemployment. Though when you look at the popular vote, Mittens clearly won. Might be time to revisit that whole electoral college bullshit and why an entire state that's pretty much all red, can flip to blue based on a single county and vise versa.

1) I think I clearly said, in the above post, that it isn't taxes on the middle class that's the problem. It's not what you earn, it's what you earn propotionately

2) Do you actually know anyone happy to earn so little that they don't get taxed? No, you haven't. You'll claim to know some "welfare queen" but here's a hint: they don't exist. No one is happy being a bottom feeder

3) Spending doesn't really matter. It never has. Why is it important? It's a symptom, and not a particularly meaningful one

4) I never said anything about the rich paying for anything, and I certainly never said anything about class warfare. You suck at reading. How could you think I'm talking about paying for anything when I'm saying spending isn't the issue? Jesus, man, Jesus. I'm saying that the problem is that we only make so much money in this country and most of it goes to few people. It's simple math

5) We had record debt under Bush. And, the US isn't a bubble - that unemployment is a global thing the president can't do much to change. It will get better on its own. And, at that point, you'll claim that it got better on its own, even though you somehow think the president should be fixing something that's coming at us from Europe and Asia


Lastly, fuck the popular vote. This is WHY we have an electoral college. Old, rural white men turned out in droves for Mitt. Pretty much every other demographic went Obama. Why should we cater to old, rural white men? They're uneducated, they're bigoted, and this isn't their country anymore. It belongs to the educated, mixed masses in the cities.

More like it belongs to special interest groups though they pander to both parties and history revisionist which seems to be a liberal hobby of sorts.

Buffet I take with a grain of salt, one of his companies owes millions in back taxes.

Fix the tax code so that there aren't so many loopholes and your problem is solved, pretending that we don't have a progressive tax rate in the country based on income doesn't make it true.

There's plenty of bottom feeders who feel their entitled to having everyone pay their way, because they're entitled to it damnit! That's the other problem with society and America especially these days. Personal responsibilty is considered a dirty phrase and it's the rich's fault that the poor aren't all driving around in cadillacs rather than their poor life choices that put them in those types of situations to begin with. No so much easier to blame the rich people for holding their piece of success.

Spending does matter, between Junior and Obozo we'll have 20 trillion in debt within the next 4 years and no way to pay for it. If that raises zero red flags for you than I'm sorry, you're not worth the wasted time to try and educate you on why that is a huge huge issue.

Who's going to bail the country out? GM? Maybe that's only fair since we paid for their shitty business decisions over the last decade.
 
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124. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:54 Beamer
 
If you discount home ownership and look at other wealth (liquid capital, stocks, bonds, etc.), the top 20% of Americans actually have over 95% of the wealth in America.

So yes, they pay 80% of taxes. They hold 95% of non-home-ownership wealth.


We were skewed like this in the 1920s. New tax policies changed that, and through the early 70s the middle class became very popular, suburbs boomed, etc. Then it changed. Gee, I wonder why. Wait, here's the answer: Wealth inequality in America in the 1900s. Note that it goes exactly with our top marginal tax rate.

People can talk about job creators working hard to earn all this, but the bottom line is that, when you look at it, our entire country was strongest when our middle class was strongest (as the average buying power and therefore consumption was the highest), and this occured when the top marginal tax rates were quite high. Marginal being the key term here.
 
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123. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:50 Beamer
 
Prez wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 08:16:
I am just glad it's over - I despise election years. How 'bout next time the candidates just campaign in Ohio and Florida since they are the states that decide every election and leave the rest of us alone? Maybe then I wouldn't have to hear about it night and day.

Buffet paid 17% last year while his secretary paid 35%.

I always see that quoted and what it continues to say to me is that the middle class are over-taxed rather than making the case that the upper class is under-taxed. You could cut the middle class tax rate in half and it wouldn't make much difference. I read in a report back in 2000 that the top 20% of wage earners in America pay 75% of the taxes or some ungodly high number like that. I can't imagine that has changed a whole lot.

It's all proportionate, Prez.
For one, it doesn't matter what you pay in taxes, it matters what you pay next to everything else. The price of goods will adjust to what kind of spending power everyone has.

For another, yes, the top 20% does pay about 80% in taxes. In fact, the top 1% pays 38%. However, the top 20% has 84% of the wealth.

You're looking at how much people pay per person. That sounds right, but it isn't. You need to look at how much people pay per dollar earned, and the top 20% pays 80% but earns 84%.

See how that isn't proportionate. Stop worrying about the homeless guy not paying anything and start worrying about the super rich guy not paying as much on what he earns as the next guy. If you need a blood transfusion and have one brother with a medical condition that he's got 4 extra pints in him and another brother with a medical condition that he has 4 too few pints in him, will you criticize them for not giving equally?
 
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122. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:25 PHJF
 

3 hours later i got to vote.....wtf. it is 2012. Can we get a better fucking system?

Couldn't you just show up in uniform and saunter to the front of the line? "Just uhhhh... checkin for voter fraud, people."
 
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121. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:16 Prez
 
I am just glad it's over - I despise election years. How 'bout next time the candidates just campaign in Ohio and Florida since they are the states that decide every election and leave the rest of us alone? Maybe then I wouldn't have to hear about it night and day.

Buffet paid 17% last year while his secretary paid 35%.

I always see that quoted and what it continues to say to me is that the middle class are over-taxed rather than making the case that the upper class is under-taxed. You could cut the middle class tax rate in half and it wouldn't make much difference. I read in a report back in 2000 that the top 20% of wage earners in America pay 75% of the taxes or some ungodly high number like that. I can't imagine that has changed a whole lot.

This comment was edited on Nov 7, 2012, 08:35.
 
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120. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:14 Beamer
 
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:30:
Beamer wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:02:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 17:48:
Bodolza wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:31:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 6, 2012, 16:25:
Don't just raise taxes while still spending out of control like both parties are currently doing.

Wow. After your previous rants, I'm a bit surprised that you support Obama's position on spending.

LOL Obama's position on spending is raise taxes while continuing to spend. So no, I don't support the Obmessiah's position.

Spending isn't the issue people make it out to be. They love to, because China, but China barely has any of our debt.

Taxation is a problem. We need to go back to the same marginal tax rates as when we had a strong middle class. People act like it's a recent thing that the middle class is in decline, as if it can happen in 4 years instead of 30.

Pretty much there's a nice divide between people that still believe America is the end all and be all in the world, and that it can just print personal income, and people that realize that America is competing on a global economy and that personal income is disappearing to other nations yet somehow growing at the very top. That growth is coming from somewhere. If it isn't other nations it must be... the middle class!

Taxes are the lowest they've been across the board for the middle class in a long time. How hard is it to fathom that the 1% can't cover everything, they're already taxed more than anyone else and those people at the bottom that rake in all the handouts pay zero.

The issue is most definitely spending, you can't spend more than you take in and expect to prosper. Common sense beamer come on.

Once again it's the same ol song and dance, tax the rich, they'll pay for it all. Class warfare rah rah rah.

I can't fucking believe Americans want another 4 years of record debt and unemployment. Though when you look at the popular vote, Mittens clearly won. Might be time to revisit that whole electoral college bullshit and why an entire state that's pretty much all red, can flip to blue based on a single county and vise versa.

1) I think I clearly said, in the above post, that it isn't taxes on the middle class that's the problem. It's not what you earn, it's what you earn propotionately

2) Do you actually know anyone happy to earn so little that they don't get taxed? No, you haven't. You'll claim to know some "welfare queen" but here's a hint: they don't exist. No one is happy being a bottom feeder

3) Spending doesn't really matter. It never has. Why is it important? It's a symptom, and not a particularly meaningful one

4) I never said anything about the rich paying for anything, and I certainly never said anything about class warfare. You suck at reading. How could you think I'm talking about paying for anything when I'm saying spending isn't the issue? Jesus, man, Jesus. I'm saying that the problem is that we only make so much money in this country and most of it goes to few people. It's simple math

5) We had record debt under Bush. And, the US isn't a bubble - that unemployment is a global thing the president can't do much to change. It will get better on its own. And, at that point, you'll claim that it got better on its own, even though you somehow think the president should be fixing something that's coming at us from Europe and Asia


Lastly, fuck the popular vote. This is WHY we have an electoral college. Old, rural white men turned out in droves for Mitt. Pretty much every other demographic went Obama. Why should we cater to old, rural white men? They're uneducated, they're bigoted, and this isn't their country anymore. It belongs to the educated, mixed masses in the cities.
 
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119. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:13 RollinThundr
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:46:
RollinThundr wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 00:30:
Taxes are the lowest they've been across the board for the middle class in a long time. How hard is it to fathom that the 1% can't cover everything, they're already taxed more than anyone else and those people at the bottom that rake in all the handouts pay zero.

But they can. They don't pay their share, not even close. That's why the tax laws are so convoluted and there are so many tax lawyers. When guys like Buffet say they're not paying enough - Buffet paid 17% last year while his secretary paid 35%. How else do you think that less than 1% of the population control over 90% of the wealth? So how you can argue they're not paying enough is absurd at best.

The issue is most definitely spending, you can't spend more than you take in and expect to prosper.

No one disagrees with that it's just a question of where those cuts come from. Maybe you want to live in some version of a post-apocalypse America where everyone fends for themselves but most people - even on the right - do not.

Once again it's the same ol song and dance, tax the rich, they'll pay for it all. Class warfare rah rah rah.

And guys like you defending them even as they make your life harder. Why is that?

I can't fucking believe Americans want another 4 years of record debt and unemployment. Though when you look at the popular vote, Mittens clearly won. Might be time to revisit that whole electoral college bullshit and why an entire state that's pretty much all red, can flip to blue based on a single county and vise versa.

I can't believe people voted for the GOP after the last 4 years of obstructionist politics where they won't budge an inch on anything they don't want. That's why nothing is getting done. And yeah, if there was no electoral college there never would have been a Dubya and America wouldn't be in the mess its in right now so I agree with you on that.

Edit: Well, looks like Obama wins the popular vote too. Oh that's gotta sting, huh?

oh for fucks sakes. Obama didn't get anything done let's blame the GOP for blocking him! Or lets blame Bush! Or Reagan! So this is what conservatives have to look forward to for another 4 years? Blame everyone else but Obama for being a failure of a president? Yippy can't wait!
 
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118. Re: Out of the Blue Nov 7, 2012, 08:09 Beamer
 
Jeraxle wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 01:39:
. There are a lot of agencies that fail the constitution litmus test.

No, there really aren't.
 
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117. Re: Broken Heart Syndrome Nov 7, 2012, 07:30 The Half Elf
 
InBlack wrote on Nov 7, 2012, 06:25:
Hate to break up your monologue there jdreyer just wanted to pipe in

Congratulations to all of you Americans on your new president. Wish you the best of luck!

He's not new, it's part of America's new recycling system!
 
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