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RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming

John Carmack tweets that there are still plans to release the overdue mod tools for RAGE, id's semi-recent first-person shooter (thanks VG247/Joystiq/NeoGAF). He ruefully says:

BFG work pushed the Rage tools, but Real Soon Now. I hope. Sigh. I think we have made poor decisions on this all year.

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64 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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64. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Nov 1, 2012, 12:19 Lit_Reflex001
 
Crap. I know however that the intel integrated controller handles 1000 MB/sec. Hopefully it can make the leap to 1500 or so!  
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63. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 31, 2012, 16:16 descender
 
Not to mention the difficulty in finding a raid controller that could handle that sort of throughput.  
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62. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 31, 2012, 09:27 Lit_Reflex001
 
Thank you Creston! I cannot believe this bad news but thanks for telling me.

I think I will buy Intel. Now that Nvidia is out of the motherboard business it's full steam ahead for an Asus Intel chipset!

Woohoo!!!!!!!!!

No offense but are you sure going from 550 MB/sec to 1650 isn't worthwhile?

Also to be perfectly honest consolidating 3 drives' data into one "disk" is very useful.

Edit: If you have a 7 series mobo you can buy two Samsung 830 SSD's for $90 each (64 GB individually).

If your on a budget you can just buy one of these bad boys and get 500 MB/sec read speed and just under 160 MB/sec write. You can now install Steam games into different directories apparently so full "steam" ahead!

This comment was edited on Oct 31, 2012, 09:46.
 
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61. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 30, 2012, 12:06 Verno
 
You can manually run some clean up utilities once every few months to take care of that though, not the end of the world. I agree in general that raid'ing SSDs outside of a work setting is silly and unnecessary though.  
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60. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 30, 2012, 11:42 Creston
 
Anonymous wrote on Oct 26, 2012, 23:36:
Whoever was talking about minimal size on SSD's needs to rethink the situation.

There are 120 GB SSD's available at the local Fry's Electronics for $230 with a 550 MB/sec read, 500 MB write speed.

If you can get 3 of those running in a RAID-0 array, that's 360GB running at 1650 MB/sec read, 1500 MB write.

I think 360 GB is adequate unless you have a collection of downloaded movies in addition to games.

I'm quite sure you could have a 4'th SATA slot HDD of 500GB or more to back up anything you don't currently need.

Again, unless you are currently running the latest Intel motherboard and the latest Intel SSD (which came out like a month or so ago,) running SSDs in a RAID is a Really Bad Idea because it disables TRIM. Without TRIM, your SSDs will fill up with useless junk data and eventually lose a significant chunk of their performance.

Creston
 
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59. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 28, 2012, 23:25 eRe4s3r
 
There is probably only 1 game I'd want to install on an SSD.. and that is Shogun 2 and Empires / Empires: Napoleon.. I just now tried them all 3... holy crap does everything load slow.. It runs so beautifully on all max, but everything takes forever to load. I even play on "normal" graphic settings just so the battles load in my lifetime...

I have a totally swamped HDD but if an SSD could cut these load-times I'd get one. As OS and "very few exceptional games" partition. I just have no idea which one to get...
 
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58. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 28, 2012, 12:53 Lit_Reflex001
 
I just want to mention something. When messing with Steam like I said, you have to consider files that are in the root steamapps directory too, not just in the game's directory.

There is big data there sometimes (Valve games and mods).
 
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57. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 27, 2012, 18:37 Jerykk
 
Copying games between hard drives could work, but I'm pretty lazy. I'd rather just keep them installed on one hard drive deal with 1-5 second load times.  
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56. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 27, 2012, 14:54 Lit_Reflex001
 
Your right! I, however, am going to very much take 1650 MB/sec read speed with having to deal with copying games over to my backup HDD and reinstalling Steam (if applicable).

There's a way to copy games into Steam without having to re-download.

What you do is you delete everything except steam.exe and the steamapps folder. You then copy in correctly the game data you want into steamapps.

Then run Steam.exe, let it redownload the Steam core files, then you select the game you installed manually and select "verify game cache".

It will then verify the data, redownload any missing files, and you can run your game again without having to download the entire thing.

With this, you can backup games to an HDD that you don't currently need but might want in the future.

Note: it can take some time to verify the cache. For some reason, it will download some data (not much though) despite having copied everything.

If you have a faster connection than my .73 megabit DSL and a faster computer than this Athlon 64 X2 2.2 GHz, you probably won't experience any hassle.
 
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55. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 27, 2012, 04:40 Jerykk
 
Anonymous wrote on Oct 26, 2012, 23:36:
Whoever was talking about minimal size on SSD's needs to rethink the situation.

There are 120 GB SSD's available at the local Fry's Electronics for $230 with a 550 MB/sec read, 500 MB write speed.

If you can get 3 of those running in a RAID-0 array, that's 360GB running at 1650 MB/sec read, 1500 MB write.

I think 360 GB is adequate unless you have a collection of downloaded movies in addition to games.

I'm quite sure you could have a 4'th SATA slot HDD of 500GB or more to back up anything you don't currently need.

360 gigs really isn't very much. Games are getting bigger and bigger. Here are some examples from Steam (including patches and DLC):

Alpha Protocol: 11 gigs
RAGE: 21 gigs
Max Payne 3: 30 gigs
LA Noire: 13 gigs
XCOM: 13 gigs
Shogun 2: 30 gigs
Sleeping Dogs: 11 gigs
Arkham City: 16 gigs
Empire: Total War: 16 gigs

If you play a lot of games, 360 gigs is going to run out quickly unless you constantly uninstall games. If you like to replay games, uninstalling is not a very practical solution and with DLC and mods, the incentive to replay games is growing.

As for RAGE's textures, they really don't need to be that big. In fact, the whole Megatexture concept is inherently flawed. Even if it gives you the ability to make every surface look unique, how many players will even notice? The vast majority of players only care about characters and weapons. Also, the dev man hours required to create huge, highly detailed megatextures is completely impractical.

This comment was edited on Oct 27, 2012, 04:46.
 
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54. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 26, 2012, 23:36 Lit_Reflex001
 
Whoever was talking about minimal size on SSD's needs to rethink the situation.

There are 120 GB SSD's available at the local Fry's Electronics for $230 with a 550 MB/sec read, 500 MB write speed.

If you can get 3 of those running in a RAID-0 array, that's 360GB running at 1650 MB/sec read, 1500 MB write.

I think 360 GB is adequate unless you have a collection of downloaded movies in addition to games.

I'm quite sure you could have a 4'th SATA slot HDD of 500GB or more to back up anything you don't currently need.
 
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53. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 26, 2012, 03:09 netnerd85
 
Awesome, can't wait! Great to hear some news from the man himself. Was getting worried.  
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52. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 22:28 Grifter
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 17:47:
Verno wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 08:48:
I'd much rather take faster loading times on the games I do use than waiting an hour to play some game I might never play again anyway.
The thing is, load times on modern games are really pretty minimal once you bypass the mandatory intros. Games like XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Borderlands 2 and Dishonored load in seconds. Obviously an SSD would be much faster still but I consider it more important to be able to launch any game I choose, rather than having to constantly juggle games between drives.Especially when most games I'll play for the 8-30hrs it takes to complete them and probably not go back to them for years. I've only got 50GB free on my SSD and all my SATA ports are in use. Plus Valve only recently added the ability to install games to different locations - before it was a complicated process involving symlinks, which would have to be reconfigured each time one reinstalls Windows.

It's only possible to keep a handful of games on an SSD and to do that you have to constantly juggle games back and forwards. I use Steam because it is less hassle that traditional installs and I don't want to make lots more work for myself for minimal gain.

Grifter wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 13:34:
actually the problem was not megatextures technology that worked perfectly fine. The problem with his game was that he had to compress the textures to get them on to a format that people could actually realistically use.
That's not actually true. Carmack revealed that the source textures were no higher quality, hence why the high resolution texture pack he originally talked up was scrapped. Further, the issue with megatextures is that there is no detail texture when you get close - they only look good from afar and Carmack admitted optimising the game for consoles, which is 720p. The game was a trainwreck from conception.

MajorD wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 15:08:
But, but.....look, it runs at a silky smooth 60FPS on both PC and console platforms. Rolleyes
Exactly. Anyone can get a game to run at 60fps if they scrap demanding features like high resolution textures, dynamic lights and making objects that consist of more than 10 polygons.

actually you are wrong Carmack admitted that the final build of Rage was 1tb. Carmack also admitted that Rage looks great if you have the 1tb of textures to go with it. The problem was in the compression. They compressed a 1 tb game down to 25 gigs. Think about what that would do to the texture quality.

John Carmack has revealed that an uncompressed software build of Rage is one terabyte in size quoted from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_%28video_game%29

and 1:47:37 | Would look great if we could ship 1 Terabyte of Rage texture data ...(JOhn Carmack said this himself)

this last sentence was taken from John Carmack's keynote 2012 you can find this here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=492110

and Carmack also said this about Rage during that Keynote

3:00:54 | QA1: Network Streaming for Arbitrary Quality Downloads

(The asker was disappointed Rage wasn't a "300 gig" download from steam)
(Big thing for PCs, 1TB of Rage could be on a server, high-quality textures streamed in real-time exactly at what the player is looking)
Carmack already experimented with it, works better than anyone would expect.
Technical barriers, needs a lot of servers and bandwidth
Planned, will hopefully get supported in future projects (D4)



where are the sources for the ish you are talking, I would like to see it


This comment was edited on Oct 25, 2012, 22:59.
 
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51. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 21:09 Verno
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 17:47:
The thing is, load times on modern games are really pretty minimal once you bypass the mandatory intros. Games like XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Borderlands 2 and Dishonored load in seconds. Obviously an SSD would be much faster still but I consider it more important to be able to launch any game I choose

Nope, it depends on the game. Some games it makes a big difference and other games it makes a small difference. Whatever your reasons are, they're your reasons so enjoy or whatever. I'd wager the majority of people do not care to keep their entire gaming library installed so long as it is accessible.
 
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Playing: Shadow of Mordor, Peggle 2, TIE Fighter
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50. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 17:47 theyarecomingforyou
 
Verno wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 08:48:
I'd much rather take faster loading times on the games I do use than waiting an hour to play some game I might never play again anyway.
The thing is, load times on modern games are really pretty minimal once you bypass the mandatory intros. Games like XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Borderlands 2 and Dishonored load in seconds. Obviously an SSD would be much faster still but I consider it more important to be able to launch any game I choose, rather than having to constantly juggle games between drives.Especially when most games I'll play for the 8-30hrs it takes to complete them and probably not go back to them for years. I've only got 50GB free on my SSD and all my SATA ports are in use. Plus Valve only recently added the ability to install games to different locations - before it was a complicated process involving symlinks, which would have to be reconfigured each time one reinstalls Windows.

It's only possible to keep a handful of games on an SSD and to do that you have to constantly juggle games back and forwards. I use Steam because it is less hassle that traditional installs and I don't want to make lots more work for myself for minimal gain.

Grifter wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 13:34:
actually the problem was not megatextures technology that worked perfectly fine. The problem with his game was that he had to compress the textures to get them on to a format that people could actually realistically use.
That's not actually true. Carmack revealed that the source textures were no higher quality, hence why the high resolution texture pack he originally talked up was scrapped. Further, the issue with megatextures is that there is no detail texture when you get close - they only look good from afar and Carmack admitted optimising the game for consoles, which is 720p. The game was a trainwreck from conception.

MajorD wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 15:08:
But, but.....look, it runs at a silky smooth 60FPS on both PC and console platforms. Rolleyes
Exactly. Anyone can get a game to run at 60fps if they scrap demanding features like high resolution textures, dynamic lights and making objects that consist of more than 10 polygons.
 
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49. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 17:44 Asmo
 
BobBob wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 08:57:
Cool. I can create my dead horse mod.

Don't forget the dead horse armour DLC. ; )
 
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48. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 17:37 Creston
 
MajorD wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 15:08:
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 24, 2012, 22:45:
What do you expect from someone who coded ID Tech 5 and forgot how DETAIL textures or dynamic lights worked. Then tried to explain us that this _> http://media.bestofmicro.com/J/8/311732/original/rage-blurry.jpg is the future of game graphic engines, while the frostbite 2 engine, with half the install footprint blows ID Tech 5 so far out of the water that to this day they haven't found all the pieces again.

Rage will never look good. It is a failed experiment, proof that megatexture sounds neat on paper, but when executed fails on all levels. For super awesome vistas you could still get away with a matte painting with 4k*16k resolution. Tiled so that each piece is 1024x1024. Instead, Karmak would make you believe that the actual vista has to be modeled, textured by hand, and baked by a super-computer and then rendered in real-time on your PC again.

He is a superb coder, with absolutely no clue how to make good graphic engines anymore.

But, but.....look, it runs at a silky smooth 60FPS on both PC and console platforms. Rolleyes


Yeah, Notch's new game probably runs at 60fps too. And surprisingly, it looks better than Rage in some instances.

Creston
 
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47. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 15:08 MajorD
 

eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 24, 2012, 22:45:
What do you expect from someone who coded ID Tech 5 and forgot how DETAIL textures or dynamic lights worked. Then tried to explain us that this _> http://media.bestofmicro.com/J/8/311732/original/rage-blurry.jpg is the future of game graphic engines, while the frostbite 2 engine, with half the install footprint blows ID Tech 5 so far out of the water that to this day they haven't found all the pieces again.

Rage will never look good. It is a failed experiment, proof that megatexture sounds neat on paper, but when executed fails on all levels. For super awesome vistas you could still get away with a matte painting with 4k*16k resolution. Tiled so that each piece is 1024x1024. Instead, Karmak would make you believe that the actual vista has to be modeled, textured by hand, and baked by a super-computer and then rendered in real-time on your PC again.

He is a superb coder, with absolutely no clue how to make good graphic engines anymore.

But, but.....look, it runs at a silky smooth 60FPS on both PC and console platforms. Rolleyes

 
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46. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 15:03 DG
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Oct 24, 2012, 22:06:
Beelzebud wrote on Oct 24, 2012, 21:47:
This should really excite all 3 people that have the 20gb game still taking up space on their hard drive.
Does anybody actually uninstall games these days? I've got over 550 games on Steam and I keep them all installed - that includes RAGE. I have 40Mbit broadband and I'd still rather not have to wait the twenty minutes it takes to download most games when I could just keep them installed.
I usually have TF2 + maybe Civ, then whatever game I'm playing at that time, sometimes maybe 1 or 2 more.

When I start an SP game, I finish it. I very rarely replay games and I very rarely feel like jumping into a game to muck around - well maybe a GTA back when it was fun just to drive around and cause mayhem i.e. Vice City.
 
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45. Re: RAGE Mod Tools Still Coming Oct 25, 2012, 13:34 Grifter
 
Creston wrote on Oct 25, 2012, 12:21:
No mod is ever going to be able to fix that clusterfuck that is megatexture, but who knows, maybe some enterprising soul will create a race game in Rage, since the racing part was the only thing I really enjoyed. And it really bugged me that once you've won all of them "Har har, you can't race anymore!"

actually the problem was not megatextures technology that worked perfectly fine. The problem with his game was that he had to compress the textures to get them on to a format that people could actually realistically use.

THe final build of Rage was over 1 terabyte of data and almost all of it was textures. What do you think is going to happen if you compress 1 tb of textures down to 25gigs of data. Your textures resolution is going to be severly downgraded and thats what happened here. I am looking forward to the mod tools because I am sure someone is going to release A high res texture pack at some point that will show what Rage should have looked like before the compression destroyed the textures

This comment was edited on Oct 25, 2012, 13:40.
 
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